Discuss: Married Sexuality

[twoangels]

No, not really; we are blessed in that my wife gets pregnant easily. Maybe we are too restrictive on the times or length of phases, but we’ve just had to be careful and phases seem to stretch out. And now as we are older and she is getting pre-menopausal, its hard to tell anything! Somehow, according to the Church, and to some posters here, it is all supposed to bring the couple closer. That just isn’t our case.

There are always other factors in life that affect things and sex is often the easiest to pin it on; however, I also think that the lack or infrequency of sex, because it is so intimate and necessary in a relationship, can “permeate” and affect the entire relationship, It is also the hardest thing to discuss when spouses differ on accepting and understanding Church teachings.

This is really where things have to be weighed out and the decision of which sacrifice to make needs to be discussed and prayed over. My husband and I could not consumate our marriage. He had only temporary employment at the time and we really felt we needed to wait till he had permanent employment. Part of what contributed to this was my student loan payments. I went to FUS so I had both private and federal loans. We started out our marriage having already saved a bunch of money but finding that we weren’t able to save more and we were cutting every economic corner we could. How could we afford a baby?

But the thing was with not being able to consumate our marriage, it was bringing up so many other things. Our marriage was falling apart from the start and building up so much hurt so early on, we didn’t know how we were going to survive. So we prayed about it and decided it was more important to consumate our marriage…even if it meant risking failing at it and me getting pregnant while still having to worry about how vaginismus might effect my ability to submit to prenatal care. But we finally submitted and low and behold got pregnant right away. The pregnancy has turned out to be a great time for overcoming my other hang ups without having to worry about NFP and the blessing of the baby has brought joy in our lives as I faced both my grandparents dying within two months of each other.

More recently we were gifted with money to pay off my entire private student loan so that bill will be completely gone from our lives. There’s no way we could have predicted that. I truly see that as God providing. And just yesterday my husband got offered a job to teach medieval history. So things are falling into place and God is blessing us I think for our faithfulness. I think so many other couples would have been fed up and would have said “We have to use condoms till we’re over the vaginismus because a pregnancy is just going to make things worse.”

We have grown so close during this time of struggle. That’s not to say we haven’t had our nervious break downs and let stress get to us too much, but we’re learning.

So overall you really have to take the faith walk and discern which sacrifice needs to be made for the good of the family. I think that’s all the more reason why there isn’t a list given of what are grave reasons to avoid. The couple has to discern the situations themselves.

 

[mark_a]

We are to be as united as it is possible to be, and the key to unity is sex. Therefore, we are to have sex as much as is reasonably possible.

The assumption is that every evening will lead to sex. It isn’t that one person initiates and hopes for an affirmative response…the affirmative response is expected. Initiating isn’t even required because the act is so expected. Night time falls…the couple heads to bed and strips off their clothes and lay together. Pillow talk- hugging- sex- shower- sleep. Thats the norm…not something that happens when the stars align just right and both couples are in the mood.

Your husband is a lucky man- if he’s in his twenties or thirties!

 

[C_S_P_B]

This is really where things have to be weighed out and the decision of which sacrifice to make needs to be discussed and prayed over. My husband and I could not consumate our marriage. He had only temporary employment at the time and we really felt we needed to wait till he had permanent employment. Part of what contributed to this was my student loan payments. I went to FUS so I had both private and federal loans. We started out our marriage having already saved a bunch of money but finding that we weren’t able to save more and we were cutting every economic corner we could. How could we afford a baby?

But the thing was with not being able to consumate our marriage, it was bringing up so many other things. Our marriage was falling apart from the start and building up so much hurt so early on, we didn’t know how we were going to survive. So we prayed about it and decided it was more important to consumate our marriage…even if it meant risking failing at it and me getting pregnant while still having to worry about how vaginismus might effect my ability to submit to prenatal care. But we finally submitted and low and behold got pregnant right away. The pregnancy has turned out to be a great time for overcoming my other hang ups without having to worry about NFP and the blessing of the baby has brought joy in our lives as I faced both my grandparents dying within two months of each other.

More recently we were gifted with money to pay off my entire private student loan so that bill will be completely gone from our lives. There’s no way we could have predicted that. I truly see that as God providing. And just yesterday my husband got offered a job to teach medieval history. So things are falling into place and God is blessing us I think for our faithfulness. I think so many other couples would have been fed up and would have said “We have to use condoms till we’re over the vaginismus because a pregnancy is just going to make things worse.”

We have grown so close during this time of struggle. That’s not to say we haven’t had our nervious break downs and let stress get to us too much, but we’re learning.

So overall you really have to take the faith walk and discern which sacrifice needs to be made for the good of the family. I think that’s all the more reason why there isn’t a list given of what are grave reasons to avoid. The couple has to discern the situations themselves.

The wife’s pre-marital educational financial debt is a valid reason for delaying consummation of a marriage? This requires prayer to discern?

Why would young women think that education is more important than marriage? Why should a husband be expected to pay for a wife’s pre-marital financial decisions? Isn’t that either her responsibility or that of her father’s? Why should a man marry a woman so encumbered by her past choices? Virginity and being Catholic is not the ONLY determination of a suitable woman.

Responsibility and wisdom count. Now if her education shows a financial return over and above the cost of the education, then fine. Otherwise he just married a frivolous woman. Any man that marries an educated woman should respect her pre-marital choice (and obligation) to work.

I am attracted to very intelligent educated women but I am blunt. In REAL life I am not so harsh, but come on!

 

[moon1234]

the question isnt a subjective one-- whether a person would “rather” have great sex, mundane sex, lotsa sex, less sex.

the question, violet, is whether your premise is correct and whether your further assertions are correct.

they are not correct.

in reading Humanae Vitae, there is absolutely zero mention of the expectaation of daily intercourse. in fact, the opposite is implied strongly. read:

furthermore, there is absolutely NO mention anywhere that the husband has the final say in whether or not to have more children.

that’s NO mention, NO insinuation,NO implication anywhere in either Humanae Vitae nor in the catechism. in fact, the directive is always for the “couple” to prayerfully discern. if the couple is not of like mind, they are not to defer to one spouse (in your assertion the husband) instead, they are to continue to pray until they are like-minded and discern in unity.

subjectively: i love my husband. our marital embrace is awesome. we have 10 kids. we are happy together, best friends and deepest confidants. he is my vocation. i am his. in light of that, i am NEVER worried that he feels rejceted if i tell him my ‘availablility’ and he is NEVER worried when he tells me his (or lack of it). in fact, we are much more concerned that neither of us feel pressured by the other’s potential ardor. subjectively, i deeply appreciate his gift of self, and he mine. but we never want to take advantage of ach other’s free and full gift.

we confidently, and without self-pity or unnecessary sense of rejection, WAIT for the other to be ready.

we WAIT because we love each other. THAT (according to Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae) is a greater gift of self.

and to address the assertion that unity, not pleasure is intended, the catechism says this:

violet, let the mind of the Church direct your thinking on this. there is NO reason to try and outdo the Church on moral teaching.

Many doctors of the Church would argue with that. GOD set the man up as the head of the household. Each are equal, but if he ASKS you for the marraige debt, YOU should not say no.

 

[baylee]

Many doctors of the Church would argue with that. GOD set the man up as the head of the household. Each are equal, but if he ASKS you for the marraige debt, YOU should not say no.

So does the same hold true if the wife asks for it?

 

[moon1234]

So does the same hold true if the wife asks for it?

Yes, under certain circumstances. As long as their is no disease or other problems then each can ask for the marraige debt of the other.

I have yet to meet ANY woman who asks for it more than the man. I would even be so bold as to state many men are looking for that woman, even if only in their dreams.

 

[CountrySinger]

r.

I have yet to meet ANY woman who asks for it more than the man. I would even be so bold as to state many men are looking for that woman, even if only in their dreams.

coughs There are women out there, just a little FYI.

Of course, it would never never be me.

 

[cviolette]

Yes, under certain circumstances. As long as their is no disease or other problems then each can ask for the marraige debt of the other.

I have yet to meet ANY woman who asks for it more than the man. I would even be so bold as to state many men are looking for that woman, even if only in their dreams.

LOL! There are definitely women that have a stronger sex drive than their husband.

 

[twoangels]

The wife’s pre-marital educational financial debt is a valid reason for delaying consummation of a marriage? This requires prayer to discern?

I wasn’t the clearest. My husband and I were physically unable to consumate our marriage due to my suffering from a condition caused vaginismus. To be blunt, no matter how hard we forced it, my husband could not physically penetrate me and our attempts to do so were physically painful for me…intense burning. I ended up going to the doctor and got started on physical therapy and overcoming my mental hang ups that were contributing to the problem.

We ended up using a fertile day rather than abstaining from making attempts for the sake of trying to have a more successful attempt. Had I not suffered from vaginismus and could I have been perfectly able to have intercourse when I was non-fertile, we would have just strictly followed NFP and would be fine. Its just that the vaginismus complicated the situation.

And our primary reason for trying to avoid pregnancy was because my husband graduated from college as the unemployment rate was skyrocketing. He has been unable to find permanant work that could enable him to financially care for the family. As such, all our bills have been primarily my responsibility and if I got pregnant, there would be weeks of unpaid maternity leave where there was the possibility of neither one of us earning income.

I was merely commenting how God is providing and rewarding us for our faithfulness by opening a door of having that big student loan paid off unexpectedly just before our baby arrives and my husband finding a stable job.

 

[twoangels]

Many doctors of the Church would argue with that. GOD set the man up as the head of the household. Each are equal, but if he ASKS you for the marraige debt, YOU should not say no.

Men are also told to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. That means a man should not be solely making his decision to have sex with his wife because he wants it. He needs to consider his wife’s and his entire family’s needs. To not do so is to use his wife as if she were a whore only to satisfy and please his lustful passions. The marriage debt or his role as head of the household does not give him the right to sinfully abuse his authority.

 

[moon1234]

Men are also told to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. That means a man should not be solely making his decision to have sex with his wife because he wants it. He needs to consider his wife’s and his entire family’s needs. To not do so is to use his wife as if she were a whore only to satisfy and please his lustful passions. The marriage debt or his role as head of the household does not give him the right to sinfully abuse his authority.

Correct, but if he comes to you and asks to make love and you say “Not today, I am too tired” which of you is doing the christ like action? Is the husbands, by his open request to want to be with you, more Christ like or is your denial of his request more Christ like.

Despite your belief, a man is the head of his house hold. For you to deny that he has the final authority in his house is tantamount to denying that Christ is the head of the Church.

Women that act this way cause much stress and grief to their husbands, even if they do not say anything about it. It is not to co-equals in a marraige. It is two people working together as equals.

God set the male up as the head of the household. Your denial of a legitimate marital request is sinful. He is NOT treating a wife as a harlot to ask to have sex with her.

Please see what St. Thomas Aquanis has to say in his Summa Theologica: newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm

You will find that it is sinful to refuse a lawful request from your husband unless you are gravely ill. Please see the topic entitled "Article 5. Whether husband and wife are equal in the marriage act?"

 

[Marie682]

God set the male up as the head of the household. Your denial of a legitimate marital request is sinful. He is NOT treating a wife as a harlot to ask to have sex with her.

Please forgive me if I am being naive, as I’m not yet married, but some of these statements are concerning to me. Maybe it is the language; I don’t know. I understand the whole concept of “marriage debt”, but I wasn’t really under the impression that a man’s being the head of the household meant that he could demand sex via a request that would be sinful for her to deny. I guess I am fortunate to be marrying a man who I know would never make such demands on me.

 

[C_S_P_B]

He has been unable to find permanant work that could enable him to financially care for the family.

There is a fallacy that exists in many Christian/Catholic women. A man is expected to financially provide regardless, end of story, period, no discussion. A woman is entitled to refuse sexual relations for good reason or often feelings.

Is a man allowed to use his feelings as an excuse? After all on other CAF threads no gender roles can be established and some women take exception to any definition. It seems like there is nothing that can be agreed upon.

This may not apply to you, but other women read this and use it to rationalize their beliefs.

I totally understand the difficulty finding a job as a unemployed highly skilled engineer with over 20 years of experience.

 

[twoangels]

Correct, but if he comes to you and asks to make love and you say “Not today, I am too tired” which of you is doing the christ like action? Is the husbands, by his open request to want to be with you, more Christ like or is your denial of his request more Christ like.

I’d say to be Christlike, the husband needs to consider his wife’s feeling, level of exhaustion, etc just as when he expresses his desire for intimacy, she shouldn’t be putting her own feelings ahead of his. Both husband and wife have to love each other and both husband and wife can be guilty of neglecting each other. If a husband’s attitude is “give me sex now” and its 3am, she just finished nursing the baby and sex will mean she gets only 2 hours of sleep that night, he’s sinning. If a woman fails to appreciate her husband’s desire for her and is mildly tired, and attempts to exagerate her tiredness or fakes a headache and refuses him, than she is sinning.

However, if a woman is approached by a husband whose being selfish sexually and refusing to consider her legimate needs, I would say that she is not sinning by explaining “Hon, I’m tired. Its 3am. I have to get up at 5am.”, I would say she is communicating her needs that ideally he would have asked about before he made the request. If he gets angry at her for communicating her needs to him, and he starts Lording “marriage debt” over her head, than he’s using coersion to rape her, which is even a graver sin. If she submits to being demeaned to such a degrading level by her husband, she is disrespecting herself and giving him the means to commit a mortal sin.

The point is, she shouldn’t HAVE TO refuse him. The problem is that both men and women are sinners. Men will be tempted to put their own needs ahead of their wives and women will be tempted to put her own needs ahead of her husband’s. So because of this, I’d say its reasonable that whoever is initiating, ask the other how they are feeling, discuss feelings and desires and don’t feel threatened by having to go on to give reasons about why you’d prefer not to or why you want to. Its good not only to know inwardly that you are not being selfish, but also to communicate well enough that your spouse doesn’t feel like a used toy during the sexual embrace.

I think though in a healthy marriage that has gone on for some years, eventually the couple will develop that trust from experience perhaps not to need as much of a lengthy discussion about it. However, if they’re frequently fighting about it, there is something much deeper going on than simply the denial of the marriage debt. If such arguments are taking place and the man is putting the entire blame of their marital tension on her refusal, he’s not getting the bigger issue. The bigger issue is the lack of trust, perhaps years of built up hurt and resentment, etc. In such a case, her submitting to her husband in a manner that makes her feel used and dirty and unloved will not resolve their conflicts.

Despite your belief, a man is the head of his house hold.

I didn’t deny he was. I affirmed that he is.

For you to deny that he has the final authority in his house is tantamount to denying that Christ is the head of the Church.

I’m not denying it. However, if the man thinks that this position as final authority is the solution to all marital conflict. Man being the Head of the house like Christ is the Head of the Church is still an imperfect anology because Christ is sinless while man is not.

 

[C_S_P_B]

Please forgive me if I am being naive, as I’m not yet married, but some of these statements are concerning to me. Maybe it is the language; I don’t know. I understand the whole concept of “marriage debt”, but I wasn’t really under the impression that a man’s being the head of the household meant that he could demand sex via a request that would be sinful for her to deny. I guess I am fortunate to be marrying a man who I know would never make such demands on me.

Demand? Whoa, bad paradigm. Keep in mind that responsibility and authority cannot be separated. A tyrant is not a good leader.

A man cannot bear the responsibility for being head of the household without the authority. Leadership is more of a burden than a privilege. Women tend to only see the privilege portion and want the authority, while leaving the responsibility with the man. This is a recipe for disaster and unhappiness. Whatever you jointly decide in your marriage, don’t forget these two things are linked.

Women need to keep in mind that “debts” go both ways!

 

[Marie682]

Demand? Whoa, bad paradigm. Keep in mind that responsibility and authority cannot be separated. A tyrant is not a good leader.

Thanks for the explanation. I think that the way it is being discussed here makes it seem like it is being “demanded”, and it seemed really insensitive. I am a bit intimidated by the term “debt”, which has such a negative connotation.

I found this thread, which helped me to understand as well

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6969796

 

[cviolette]

You just need to marry someone that you trust. Which sounds like you are. A husband is not going to demand sex. He will initiate and you should not refuse unless you have a good reason to refuse. My husband is the head of the household and makes all the financial decisions but listens to my opinions. I tend to make the decisions involving the children but always ask for his advice. We are a team.

Please forgive me if I am being naive, as I’m not yet married, but some of these statements are concerning to me. Maybe it is the language; I don’t know. I understand the whole concept of “marriage debt”, but I wasn’t really under the impression that a man’s being the head of the household meant that he could demand sex via a request that would be sinful for her to deny. I guess I am fortunate to be marrying a man who I know would never make such demands on me.

 

[C_S_P_B]

I’d say to be Christlike, the husband needs to consider his wife’s feeling, level of exhaustion, etc just as when he expresses his desire for intimacy, she shouldn’t be putting her own feelings ahead of his. Both husband and wife have to love each other and both husband and wife can be guilty of neglecting each other. If a husband’s attitude is “give me sex now” and its 3am, she just finished nursing the baby and sex will mean she gets only 2 hours of sleep that night, he’s sinning. If a woman fails to appreciate her husband’s desire for her and is mildly tired, and attempts to exagerate her tiredness or fakes a headache and refuses him, than she is sinning.

However, if a woman is approached by a husband whose being selfish sexually and refusing to consider her legimate needs, I would say that she is not sinning by explaining “Hon, I’m tired. Its 3am. I have to get up at 5am.”, I would say she is communicating her needs that ideally he would have asked about before he made the request. If he gets angry at her for communicating her needs to him, and he starts Lording “marriage debt” over her head, than he’s using coersion to rape her, which is even a graver sin. If she submits to being demeaned to such a degrading level by her husband, she is disrespecting herself and giving him the means to commit a mortal sin.

The point is, she shouldn’t HAVE TO refuse him. The problem is that both men and women are sinners. Men will be tempted to put their own needs ahead of their wives and women will be tempted to put her own needs ahead of her husband’s. So because of this, I’d say its reasonable that whoever is initiating, ask the other how they are feeling, discuss feelings and desires and don’t feel threatened by having to go on to give reasons about why you’d prefer not to or why you want to. Its good not only to know inwardly that you are not being selfish, but also to communicate well enough that your spouse doesn’t feel like a used toy during the sexual embrace.

I think though in a healthy marriage that has gone on for some years, eventually the couple will develop that trust from experience perhaps not to need as much of a lengthy discussion about it. However, if they’re frequently fighting about it, there is something much deeper going on than simply the denial of the marriage debt. If such arguments are taking place and the man is putting the entire blame of their marital tension on her refusal, he’s not getting the bigger issue. The bigger issue is the lack of trust, perhaps years of built up hurt and resentment, etc. In such a case, her submitting to her husband in a manner that makes her feel used and dirty and unloved will not resolve their conflicts.

As long as you give your husband equal leeway by considering his level of exhaustion in doing what you expect of him, then you should be fine.

Please recognize that he can easily come up with equally valid reasons to not go to work. He won’t do this, but he could. If you keep this in mind you will have a better marriage. It doesn’t much matter whether you think these things are equivalent.

He will still go to work ALWAYS, unless he is physically too sick. He will understand if you are too exhausted once in a while, but don’t make it a habit. Get a babysitter, or have your mother watch the kids. Make Time!

Men solve difficulties and obstacles at work all the time so don’t erect unsolvable obstacles for him at home.

I’m not denying it. However, if the man thinks that this position as final authority is the solution to all marital conflict. Man being the Head of the house like Christ is the Head of the Church is still an imperfect anology because Christ is sinless while man is not.

Just don’t expect your man to take responsibility for things that you refuse to recognize his authority. Christ had both responsibility and authority, and he was sinless, how can a mere man compare without also having both? Whether a husband makes the right or the wrong decision, let him be responsible, and gift him with your silence while voicing your support in his ability. Whoever decides should assume the responsibility of making it work or making it right!

Do you have any idea how many men long for this “bargain?” Women would be surprised at what happens over a year or two of doing this!

 

[C_S_P_B]

Thanks for the explanation. I think that the way it is being discussed here makes it seem like it is being “demanded”, and it seemed really insensitive. I am a bit intimidated by the term “debt”, which has such a negative connotation.

I found this thread, which helped me to understand as well

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6969796

I may seem harsh and that is good. Then you will see your (future) husband as more reasonable as some of the “other men out there.” Better you be angry at me for my “extreme” views than your husband. I see you genuinely are seeking what works, that shows your quality, but feel free to let me have it if you want.

Men can speak harshly while recognizing your worth and not negating that you are lovable.

 

[freerf]

Interesting thread. I have a couple of random thoughts:

1. So…Abstaining from the marital embrace when the other may not want relations is more holy than offering ones body to the other when you don’t want relations?
2. Having relations too often can reduce the impact/joy/meaning of the act. Does this apply to other sacramentally significant acts…such as mass?

Ahhh… . the comparison question. In response to:

1. It is always better that I self-sacrifice. For my wife, it is always better that she self-sacrifice. Which is why it works. If the male self-sacrifices and the female, there will be a balance. The OP, in my opinion, is tilted to the man’s favor. At least, in my case it would be.
2. Not necessarily does it do this. It would depend on the marriage. I think for most “too often” implies too often. How can the other sacraments be taken too often? Only when abused. “Too often” implies abuse of the sacrament.