Discussing Abortion: Is Civility the Best Approach?

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There really is no agree to disagree. This is what the entire debate is about. Are unborn people actually people? Yes, undoubtedly. Any biologist can tell you that. Are they systematically and deliberately slaughtered? Yes, undoubtedly. So tell me, where is the disconnect?
 
“We can agree to disagree” implies an impasse where neither party is changing their opinion so it’s best to just cease discussing the issue. The issue is whether abortion as such qualifies as genocide. I don’t believe it does. You do. There’s no point in going on.
 
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Riman643 said:
We need to call it what it is.
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So your solution is: Make it illegal.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. And maybe take on board that more than half of Catholics think it should be legal in all or most cases. A figure that is steadily rising.

And how do you make something illegal where the greater proportion of the population disagrees with that position? And how do you reduce the number of abortions in countries where they have actually voted to make it legal?

Any ideas other than the ones that don’t work?
 
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So your solution is: Make it illegal.
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Well obviously. Do you want me to pull the statistics from before and after legalization? You asked what the best way to reduce abortions was and I gave the answer. If you are thinking short-term, I replied earlier with a few suggestions. Your solution is just hey who cares that children are being murdered? At least I gave an actual solution.
 
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I’ve encountered the argument that abortion should be legal but the ideal is no one would get one. I never understood that. If it’s wrong and it’s murder, of course it should be illegal.
 
Riman643 said:
You didn’t really comment on my other points.
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No. Sorry. This thread has been busy and I can quickly get whiplash keeping up with all of my responses.

I’m all for doing whatever it takes to strengthen Catholics in their opposition to abortion, especially where you say:
Riman643 said:
We need a unified voice among Catholics.
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However, we’ll have to part ways on the issue of semantics. I wholeheartedly agree that the pro-choice framing makes zero sense. A choice is simply a voluntary action. Pro-lifers are trying to ask them to justify why the choice is ethically acceptable, but that concern keeps getting brushed away. It’s incredibly frustrating. But if I get bogged down in the life-versus-choice semantics, the discussion goes on a whole other rabbit trail.

This wee booklet changed my entire approach to the abortion discussion. It’s a must read for every pro-lifer. https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Life-101-Step-Step-Persuasively/dp/1930836066

And finally, I’m all for donating to wonderful organizations like Birthright, or filling those baby bottles for the Knights of Columbus, (if your parish has that program).
Pattylt said:
There are two rights that are in opposition to each other regarding a pregnancy and it ONLY occurs in pregnancy. The right to life versus the right to self determination. With religion, the right to life takes precedence so with a religious person, this is what you argue from. For the non religious, however, the right to self determination overcomes the right to life in cases of pregnancy. The woman is the sole determinator of what takes place inside her body. Arguing for the right to life will not win this argument. It just won’t.
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Are you familiar with groups like Secular Pro-Life and its Canadian counterpart, Pro-Life Humanists? I do get tired of hearing my pro-life case dismissed as “just a religious argument” when I’m actually making a strictly secular case for basic human rights. There’s a movement of pro-life atheists and agnostics, and I think they’re very helpful to religious pro-lifers in this regard.
Pattylt said:
Women fear being housed, affording basic necessities and losing status at work for needing more time off.
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This is why the feminist case is better made against abortion than for it. It’s ridiculous that women should require corrective surgery in order to meet the demands of a sexist society that makes it too hard for them to carry pregnancies to term.
 
Riman643 said:
You asked what the best way to reduce abortions was and I gave the answer.
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Lets crunch some numbers and look at possible solutions.

How much should we put aside in an effort to reduce abortions? No idea? Nor me. So let’s pull a figure out of thin air and see where it gets us.

Let’s say we take 1/10 of 1% of the gdp of the US. An incredibly tiny fraction but still a chunk of money. It’s one billion dollars. But gee, isn’t that a lot? Well, it’s 1% of the amount Americans spend on pet care every year, so no…it’s not.

How do we get it? How about a coordinated campaign by everyone who thinks abortion rates should go down. That’s a lot of people. Lobby your local rep, organise petitions, have a rally, call the White House - whatever it takes.

So what to do with all that $$$.

How about encouraging women to take more care. Better contraceptive advice. Lots of adverts on TV across the nation every week. That 1/10 of 1% will get you 10,000 30 second adverts on prime time TV for a year. That’s ten thousand. And lobby ad agencies to go pro bono to save most of that. You could cover the entire 50 minute advertisment slot for the Superbowl and still have enough for 5,000 nationwide primetime ads left over. Target the groups who have the greatest number of abortions.

Did it work? Then next year use the money to set up a nationwide registry of families who’d be prepared to adopt. Everyone argues that it’s a great idea. You’ll need six times the amount who currently adopt (135,000) to cover all abortions (800,000). But if the ad campaign worked then there’d be a lot less.

Did that work? Then next we can boost the finances of organisations like Birthright. Double their numbers. Quadruple them. And they need volunteers. I expect all the pro life posters on this thread to agree to volunteer some time.

Lobby companies to guarantee paid maternity leave. Lobby your local representaives to make it compulsory. Make it compulsory to give the father paid parental leave as well.

Give free maternity health care for all women who haven’t got cover. Guarantee it.

Tax everyone above a certain wage 0.5% to help boost the funds. But make it voluntary - let’s see who is on board. Name and shame those who aren’t.

Any other ideas? This is just me pulling stuff out of thin air while I’m having a beer. And I’m the pro choice guy. Where are your solutions. What are you going to do about it. Complain that, despite what the majority of the country wants, it should be illegal? Well, that aint’t going to happen.

Let’s see something positive, guys…
 
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I think it is far more effective for Pro-Lifers to remain civil. Sometimes, I see videos of pro-life sidewalk speakers who, while civil (esp compared to people attacking them), they sometimes come across as a little cocky (esp the college aged males).

The pro-life message honestly sells itself. We don’t have to get aggressive nor adopt tactics used by the pro-abortion crowd.

We just simply have to have facts and a loving attitude.

Also, we need to listen. Listen to their #1 argument for abortion and then lovingly challenge it.
 
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Riman643 said:
Was Jesus “civil” in the temple with the money-changers and animal sellers? I think with your definition that would be a “No”.
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This is not a good example. Jesus had righteous anger because the Jewish CLERGY was allowing sin in the House of God.

Now, if a Catholic Bishop, Priest or Deacon was causing scandal, THEN we would be justified in “flipping some tables.”
 
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Code: 
 Peaceful, loving discussion is the only way. These woman have had pain in their lives. They think sex is love & get left by the men. The world sold the story, they own their bodies & can remove a baby if unwanted. The baby is a parasite. God grace me w Your love for these ppl, b/c I think of slapping them. I’m not a Saint in my mind. Praying for the heart of Jesus is easy. Having Him change my heart to His heart is questionable. My heart is surrounded by flesh. 
 Jesus was mocked & persecuted. No matter what is said to us— Love them.
 
I wrote a note on discussing abortion w pro-choice ppl. I think my note was reduced to the last two sentences. When I tried to click on it, it disappeared. Im sorry. I don’t know if this will connect. I couldn’t find the topic, again.
Blessings
 
What I said, was that loving peaceful discussion is the only way to debate.
The woman are hurt w broken hearts of lost loves & lies to by society. “The baby is a parasite!” No. It’s your body! LOVE & JESUS CONQUERS ALL!
 
blackforest said:
pro-choicers genuinely believe that the unborn aren’t human and that they’re truly helping women
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Some who promote abortion, and some who have had an abortion would disagree with that as an overly broad statement.
At least part of the pro abortion group is driven, either with or without specific awareness that underlying this is in large part a decision or choice, or an acceptance of sex outside of marriage as being normal, expected, and personally fine; whether as an emotional response to someone or as a right to a certain type of recreational experience.

Having said that, there are two statements that come to mind; third first from folklore: “There are more flies attracted to honey than to vinegar.” The second: God is love, and he who abides in love, abides in God, and God in him."
 
So let’s look at this from another angle, I’m pro choice so this will be fun. If you want to move the needle then outlawing abortion won’t work, every statistic I’ve seen shows the background rate remains flat, and don’t forget during the prohibition era alcohol consumption went up not down. Further to this various collectives across the US have been stockpiling both morning after pills and early stage abortion drugs, they’ve also been buying medical equipment and training on how to perform abortions safely.

Theres negative consequences as well, obviously the increase in mortality of those seeking abortions must be considered. Further to that is the very real risk of criminalising miscarriage, as seen most notably in El Salvador but could quite easily happen in the US.

So on to how to move the needle in a positive way, and judging by another thread this won’t be popular. Mandatory comprehensive sex education from K-12 (I think that’s the US school years), coupled with affordable or if possible free at point of use contraception made widely available. Add in compulsory parental leave for both parents, free at point of use ante and post natal care, maybe throw in some Scandinavian style baby boxes and you’ll reduce the number abortions.
 
I’m not entirely sure what your post has to do with the issue of civility in this debate. But in the spirit of practicing what I preach as the OP, I’ll give the 'ol civility a try here. 😉

Pro-lifers contend that abortion unjustly takes the life of a defenseless human being. Do you accept or reject this premise? Shifting the discussion over to abortion-related policy does not address this core point.

I would agree that there will always be ways to get around any anti-abortion laws, and that the best approach for pro-lifers may be to go after the demand rather than the supply, even if we all disagree on just how that would work. But if the pro-life premise as outlined above is true and valid, the would need to be addressed first.
 
I believe the topic is complicated significantly because often it is men telling women abortion is wrong WITHOUT ADDRESSING the issues that lead a woman to consider abortion as an option. As mentioned above, even those not screaming their arguments often are cocky, and that self-assured cockiness is just another form of incivility. These attitudes only put the other side on the defensive to the point they are unable or unwilling to consider your argument. I may get hammered for this opinion, but men telling women not to be pro choice will never accomplish a thing.

Let me preface this stance with this: I believe the presence of father is equally necessary as the presence of mother in raising good children. Personally, my dad’s love, unconditional acceptance, and faith in God is what undergirded my understanding of God and saved me in the midst of maternal rejection. My mother did and still does treat me with distain and utter contempt and had it not been for my beloved father I shudder to think how even more damaged I would be. Likewise, my husband’s love of our children and his spiritual leadership is key to the fact our kids are honest and faithful, especially our daughters who don’t need to seek male attention because of its lack in the home. So please don’t refute the following stance with the argument that I don’t understand the importance of a father, because I absolutely do understand quite well. That said, if a woman becomes pregnant, she CANNOT walk away. I know many of you will recoil at the thought and you would never walk away from a woman you impregnated. But, it is a singular experience and burden only a woman can understand. Even if a man pays child support and is part of the child’s life, the burden of the next 18+ years is the woman’s alone if the father walks away. This is just one reason women consider abortion. Another is the lack of maternal support in the workforce. Pregnant women rarely get offered jobs, mothers are typically the ones to be called by the school because of a sick child, women are punished for using leave for child related reasons with lack of promotion and less pay. Until these issues are addressed AND mitigated, you are not going to persuade most women that abortion should be legalised.

Continued…
 
…continuing…
Abortion is legal: that is a fact. I’ve seen so much energy poured into ‘prolife’ and ending abortion and very little energy directed towards creating a society that loves and supports mothers and children, this making abortion rare. It is easier to deal with legalities and feel like you do support motherhood by donating to a pregnancy centre. But this does little to a frightened 18yo who is pregnant and kicked out of her home and abandoned by her boyfriend. It is not fair to tell her ‘just adopt’ because nine months of pregnancy has great physical and social implications. You can explain the reasons why you think abortion is wrong, but it will have little effect for most women because they bear the burden alone much of the time.

One of the (many) great tragedies of abortion is that when a father DOES want a child, if the woman doesn’t, he gets no say. Another thing that complicates the prolife argument is telling women who do not hold the same Catholic Christian values that abortion is wrong but they cannot use birth control either. I believe that rather than pouring so much energy into fighting legal abortion, it would be far more effective to focus on fostering a society that values family as well as winning souls. If a soul is won over to the love of Jesus, they will share our values and thus want to sustain life.
 
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