Discussing Abortion with Parents

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CutlerB

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Dear friends,

We were just “discussing” Abortion and Contraception to some extent. I am not very well versed concerning the Catholic position on the latter, so I tried to keep out of that. We talked about a case of rape and Dad kept saying “There’s no right and wrong here.”, Mum went on “You can’t judge that, you’re a 19-year old man with no experience in life and heavily influenced by all of your Catholicism. Catholics especially have no right to tell the raped woman what she ought to do.” I don’t know why Mum is so opposed to the Catholic Church. She’s always been that way from what I can remember, and never said why. She’s always very emotional about it, when we discuss Catholicism. Especially since I told them a few days ago that I was going to convert.

I tried to keep calm and be charitable, but with Mum and Dad constantly going selectably deaf, misrepresenting positions or facts and switching topics, after some time I couldn’t much longer. Honestly defending, even encouraging, moral evil got me so worked up that I tried to bring the discussion to and end for the moment before things got even more out of hand.

The example given was this: “A woman has been raped. Is it OK for her to abort the child as soon as possible after the incident?” The classic topic.

My position was that it wasn’t OK. Mum and Dad said that it was not up to us to decide what she should do, but that it was her choice, as she was left with the effects of rape that she didn’t want, that is the child. Once I had asked the question whether a child conceived in rape was any less a child than one “wanted”, things went crazy and in all sorts of directions, me being unable to hold the discussion on that one example for too long.

So, we drifted off into them asking me “If the woman was to die due to pregnancy, would you as a husband allow the abortion?”. I noted that by their own words I wouldn’t be capable of answering their question, since I “didn’t have the experience”. However, I did reply with the example I heard on Catholic Answers: “Two people drowning, I can only save one. Who do I save and is it my fault the other one drowned? No, I am not. In another case, I push the other one under water, actively drowning him to save the other one. Am I culpable? Yes.”

That, in turn, got the reply “That’s nothing to do with the topic.” By that point I was tired of all the turns and changes, and decided to leave it at that for the moment. Mum and Dad said they wanted me to look at both sides. I told them I had, and that simply because I was not of their opinion they could not conclude I hadn’t looked at both views.

I would like to list some of the claims my Mum and Dad made, and invite you to reply to each one of them, if you like, so I can maybe gain some wisdom on how to answer.
  1. There is no right and wrong in the situation of aborting a baby conceived in rape.
  2. The woman is forced to have a baby she didn’t want. You go and tell a rape victim “Sorry, you have to have the child.”
  3. The Catholic Church is wrong on this issue. Dogma must change.
    (To this, I would myself like to add that I said Dogma could not change by its very nature, and that the Church was not wrong. I might as well state I said rather disrespectfully that I trusted the Church’s position would endure and outlive theirs…)
This has become much longer than I intended it to be, and probably the tone is not quite appropriate either, because I am all worked up about it.

May I, while we’re at it, also request your prayers both for Mum and Dad as well as for me, that the former may ponder for themselves honestly and diligently the arguments given, and that I may in future discussions be more charitable and less quickly exhausted in terms of patience? Thank you so much. God bless you all.
 
WOW! to all of this and to you… WOW! God Bless you!

I will pray.

I guess for me it boils down to this. Is a baby in the womb human or not. IF yes killing it is wrong. If not, then it is not wrong. The first thing that has to be shown that the baby is a living seperate Human being. Once that hurdle has been overcome the rest “should” be relatively easy.

The question is how do we prove that the baby is a seperate living human being.

I know it can be done because it is the truth.

Peace!👍
 
CutlerB said:
  1. There is no right and wrong in the situation of aborting a baby conceived in rape.
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If a woman is raped, she should seek medical attention immediately. There are drugs that can help prevent conception. Such drugs can be administered provided there is no evidence of conception. (This is from a priest teaching a Catholic sexual and medical ethics course)

If a child is conceived in rape there is indeed a “right” and “wrong” way to handle the situation - abortion is not it.
CutlerB said:
  1. The woman is forced to have a baby she didn’t want. You go and tell a rape victim “Sorry, you have to have the child.”
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Should a child be conceived from a rape, the Church would indeed say the rape victim must bear the child. She does not have to keep and raise the child, she could give it up to adoption.
CutlerB said:
  1. The Catholic Church is wrong on this issue. Dogma must change.
    (To this, I would myself like to add that I said Dogma could not change by its very nature, and that the Church was not wrong. I might as well state I said rather disrespectfully that I trusted the Church’s position would endure and outlive theirs…)
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No, the catholic Church is not wrong on the issue. Life begins at conception. Each and every human being is created in the image and likeness of God and therefore possesses an innate dignity that must be respected from conception until natural death.
 
What this boils down to is a refusal to look objectively at a difficult situation because it is so emotionally charged. They cannot provide a rational explanation for why abortion could be moral just because of how the child was conceived or because the pregnancy is medically dangerous. Despite this, their sympathy for women in these situations and their desire to leave the women an escape causes them to willfully cloud their judgment, and to resort to an ad hominem attack on you (your youth, sex, and inexperience) to discount what you are saying, since they cannot answer your position on its own grounds.

I do not think there is much hope in resuming this argument. Your parents’ attitude, as you describe it, is practically the definition of willful, morally culpable “ignorance” of natural law. In your place I would hope and pray that your arguments have planted seeds in their minds that may eventually bear fruit when they let themselves consider the subject more objectively. Meanwhile, resuming the debate may only strain family relations further and make them less likely to take you seriously on other subjects that may come up.
 
  1. There is no right and wrong in the situation of aborting a baby conceived in rape.
Answer: Actually, there is a right and wrong in the situation. While we understand this is a traumatic event for the woman who was raped, we need to understand that, said woman, was a victim of a violent crime caused by another human being. Regardless of how evil that human being was to rape said woman, their union created another human life. Human life is a blessing, regardless of how it was created. We shouldn’t encourage women to create another act of evil by killing her unborn child. Evil is evil, regardless of what form it happens to take. Does one evil blot out another evil? No - it just brings more evil into the world.
  1. The woman is forced to have a baby she didn’t want. You go and tell a rape victim “Sorry, you have to have the child.”
Answer: The child didn’t choose to be created. However, as bad as the circumstances of its conception, we still need to value that it is a human life and, as such, is worthy of protection because it is a human being. It would be more wrong for a traumatized woman to have to endure more pain and trauma after murdering her child. A woman can put said child up for adoption or can choose to raise the child. We may not like how the pregnancy came about, however, a woman never forgets an abortion or giving birth. Giving birth is a life-transforming event which could bring healing and something positive out of a bad situation. The only positive that comes out of having an abortion is not being physically pregnant, still the woman will have emotional and may have physical scars from the abortion. When the child was created, the situation ceased being just about the woman.
  1. The Catholic Church is wrong on this issue. Dogma must change.
Answer: The Church isn’t about being popular. What makes people uncomfortable is that the church points out areas of people’s lives where they’d prefer not to confront their own sin.

It’s like what we say to parents - it’s not the job of the parents to be their kid’s friend, but to be their parent. The same can be said about the role of the church in our lives. The church isn’t there to tell us what we want to hear, but what we need to hear.

I find it disconcerting when people try to dissuade others from striving to live up to the high ideals of the church.

A lot of people say that they are Christians, but really see no need in living the life. So, they start thinking that what the church finds to be sinful is really okay, under certain circumstances…well, no. (That’s not what God says! Read the Book, if you are confused!)

Just keep in mind that the church wants us to conform to Her standards, not the world’s standards. I think you’ve got a good handle on that one if you are having these arguments with your parents at 19. I think your parents still have to figure that out.

Abortion is legal and most people accept it because they think that it’s compassionate and a loving choice. I really just don’t see how it’s loving to kill an innocent child who didn’t even choose to be created in the violent attack on a woman.

My mom was raped and she got an abortion and I still wonder if that kid would have been my older brother or sister. I’m 37. These things don’t just matter to the woman, but also to her family.

Also, I have a friend who was conceived in rape and was adopted. She eventually met her birthmom and has a wonderful relationship with her - as well as her adoptive parents.

These situations are going to be emotionally hard no matter what raped woman does. However, we really shouldn’t go around encouraging her to bring more pain and evil into her life. Most women just never get over being pregnant regardless how that pregnancy occurred. It is an “everything changes” change. You change spiritually, mentally, physically. No area is spared from changing. That’s why it’s more important to do the right thing in this type of circumstance.

Just because someone did evil in your life doesn’t mean that you get to commit an evil to someone else.

My 2 cents.
Jo
 
I’d like to start by saying that I’m sorry your parents are being so unreasonable. Their arguments are laughable at best, and their denial of relevance speaks to a deep seated fear of admitting they are wrong. I pray that you have the continued strength to stand for what is right, even in the face of ignorant opposition (no offense to your parents intended)
CutlerB said:
I would like to list some of the claims my Mum and Dad made, and invite you to reply to each one of them, if you like, so I can maybe gain some wisdom on how to answer.
  1. There is no right and wrong in the situation of aborting a baby conceived in rape.
Click to expand...
Thou shall not commit murder.

More specifically - Thou shall not take the life of an innocent.

Who is more innocent than a child; especially one who doesn’t even have the ability to live outside of the safety of the mother’s womb? As them how they could justify killing a child simply because of the manner in which they were conceived. There are myriad’s of programs, Catholics and otherwise, that help mothers through difficult pregnancies, especially those involving rape / incest; most of them also help with the adoption process and help pay the costs associated with childbirth.

You parents are saying that they’re willing to deny that child life simply to save on nine-ish months of hardship? An entire life, snuffed out; potentially eighty or ninety years of love, friendship and pure experience, vs nine months of discomfort.

Point this out to them: Had you been conceived through rape, and had they chosen to kill you, as they claim to be their right, you would be dead. They would never have known you, nothing of what you are would be left, none of the experiences you have, none of the love you’ve shared with them; none of the hardship that you have faced together. Nothing but a dead child.

Simply because the father chose to act through hatred.

How can they say there’s nothing wrong with that.
  1. The woman is forced to have a baby she didn’t want. You go and tell a rape victim “Sorry, you have to have the child.”
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Again, nine months versus an entire lifetime. There are thousands of adoption services who would gladly take in the child rather than have it’s life snuffed out. They’re speaking out of a desire for comfort and ease, not from what it moral.
  1. The Catholic Church is wrong on this issue. Dogma must change.
    (To this, I would myself like to add that I said Dogma could not change by its very nature, and that the Church was not wrong. I might as well state I said rather disrespectfully that I trusted the Church’s position would endure and outlive theirs…)
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It’s nice to see your parents have the all-encompassing knowledge that 2000 years+ of observation and intense, dedicated study of scripture, divine law and natural law brings; and all rolled into two people, wow; their church must be the most enlightened place on Earth.

Sorry if that one comes off as harsh, as I am sorry about the next few sentences, but your parents are morons; to think that they know better than an institution that was not only started by the Son of God; but that has continued to exist through countless social upheavals, and myriad attempts to denounce and destroy her. The institution which Christ himself said would not be bested by Hell.

But I digress, they are protestants, and I mean that with all the derogatory intonation you likely attributed to it. They are infected by a mindset which has rejected the full Truth of our Lord; and as such has rejected the full truth about morality. Theirs is a relativistic mindset, and all you can do for them in the end is pray for them.
This has become much longer than I intended it to be, and probably the tone is not quite appropriate either, because I am all worked up about it.
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I likewise apologize for my tone, but this subject has the tendency to make me quite… emotional…
May I, while we’re at it, also request your prayers both for Mum and Dad as well as for me, that the former may ponder for themselves honestly and diligently the arguments given, and that I may in future discussions be more charitable and less quickly exhausted in terms of patience? Thank you so much. God bless you all.
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I’ll include them in my rosary this afternoon.

Again, I apologize if I have offended, it was not my intent. Good luck, and God bless!
 
Aelred_Minor said:
What this boils down to is a refusal to look objectively at a difficult situation because it is so emotionally charged. They cannot provide a rational explanation for why abortion could be moral just because of how the child was conceived or because the pregnancy is medically dangerous. Despite this, their sympathy for women in these situations and their desire to leave the women an escape causes them to willfully cloud their judgment, and to resort to an ad hominem attack on you (your youth, sex, and inexperience) to discount what you are saying, since they cannot answer your position on its own grounds.

I do not think there is much hope in resuming this argument. Your parents’ attitude, as you describe it, is practically the definition of willful, morally culpable “ignorance” of natural law. In your place I would hope and pray that your arguments have planted seeds in their minds that may eventually bear fruit when they let themselves consider the subject more objectively. Meanwhile, resuming the debate may only strain family relations further and make them less likely to take you seriously on other subjects that may come up.
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Sorry Al I respectfully disagree with what you recomend here. Although I do understand your desire to keep peace in the family, I have to question if it should be peace at any cost. I think this issue is one that any reasonble prolife Catholic must chosse to debate (charitably) espeacially with your family. I believe our culture is so confused on this issue is because we as Catholics have not stood up and voiced this opinion rather we choose the easy path and decided to make peace at the detriment of 50 million babies an counting.

Peace!
 
ProdigalSun said:
Sorry Al I respectfully disagree with what you recomend here. Although I do understand your desire to keep peace in the family, I have to question if it should be peace at any cost. I think this issue is one that any reasonble prolife Catholic must chosse to debate (charitably) espeacially with your family. I believe our culture is so confused on this issue is because we as Catholics have not stood up and voiced this opinion rather we choose the easy path and decided to make peace at the detriment of 50 million babies an counting.

Peace!
Click to expand...
Yes, as a Church we need to take a strong stand on this issue. But as individuals we have to choose our battles prudently, taking into account our own strengths and levels of authority, our relationship to the people we are debating, the probable results of the conflict, etc. The OP has already made his position clear. Is it worth it for him to continue the fight with his own parents? Is that the kind of thing a 19 year old in the process of conversion is likely to be called by God to do? I seriously doubt it, though of course I cannot know for sure.

I made mistakes in this regard as an 18 year old in RCIA. I lost some friends, unpleasantly complicated my freshman year of college, and strained some family relationships through my misguided zeal for the Catholic faith, and all the while I doubt I brought anyone closer to actually accepting the truth. I now wish I had possessed more prudence on the matter of when to speak and when to keep silence. I suppose it’s largely that personal experience that leads me to urge the OP to avoid the same mistakes.
 
frizzgrig said:
There are drugs that can help prevent conception. Such drugs can be administered provided there is no evidence of conception.
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Stop spreading false information. The morning after pill is never acceptable.
 
devoutchristian said:
Stop spreading false information. The morning after pill is never acceptable.
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According to the US Bishops, the morning after pill can be used after a rape if 1) the woman hasn’t ovulated yet and has 2) tested negative to a pregnancy test to assure she wasn’t already pregnant. Anything else is simply an opinion, to which you are entitled.

One Source: catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
Another source: nccbuscc.org/bishops/directives.shtml
 
Rence said:
According to the US Bishops, the morning after pill can be used after a rape if 1) the woman hasn’t ovulated yet and has 2) tested negative to a pregnancy test to assure she wasn’t already pregnant. Anything else is simply an opinion, to which you are entitled.

One Source: catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
Another source: nccbuscc.org/bishops/directives.shtml
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Thanks for the links. For those interested, here’s the paragraph from the US Bishops Conference (second link). It’s under Part Three.
36. Compassionate and understanding care should be given to a person who is the victim of sexual assault. Health care providers should cooperate with law enforcement officials and offer the person psychological and spiritual support as well as accurate medical information. A female who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault. If, after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred already, she may be treated with medications that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization. It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum.
 
I have a friend whose child was conceived in rape. It was through meeting this child that I had a pro-life conversion. I could not look at that little boy and think that I would have been ok if his mom had killed him. He was the sweetest, kindest little boy. Plus, he was the spitting image of his mom. Too many people refuse to put a face on the child. I am so grateful to God that he brought this woman into my life.
 
The Church I think maintains that all life, however conceived, is sacred and thus should not killed in the womb. It would take a great deal of love for the woman and her family in that case to bear the child even if she planned to put the baby of up for adoption. Many, many people want to adopt but can not or have to wait years before they can adopt. There is someone that would give everything they have to have a child.

I think each of us would find it very difficult “to walk in her shoes”. I am a side walk counselor at an abortion mill and would offer that I think she should have a counseling session(s) at pro-life pregnancy center before she makes a decision.

Beyond that all we can do is pray for her and her child. St. Joseph, Guardian of the Family, pray for her and her family for forgiveness and unconditional love.
 
Rape is a horrible thing but the child is 50 percent of the mother as well as the rapist. My humble opinion is no to abortion in this instance. Yes things may be hard but he Lord has his reasons and never gives us more than we can handle.

Now for the cases were the mother is going to die if she carries a child or they both will die unless an abortion is performed I can not honest,y answer. No one is at fault so how do you decide? I don’t believe I could ever make that call.
 
Once I had asked the question whether a child conceived in rape was any less a child than one “wanted”, things went crazy and in all sorts of directions, me being unable to hold the discussion on that one example for too long.
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This is the very root of the question, and if you cannot bring your parents (or anyone else) to acknowledge the humanity of the unborn child NOTHING else you say will make any difference when discussing abortion. This is why they (and so many other pro-abortion people) simply avoid this fact like the plague. They’ll change the subject, get angry. refuse to discuss it any further–anything but discuss this. If they have to concede this, nothing else matters.
 
they raised an excellent kid, they should be very very proud

God bless you
 
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