Discussing JWs

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jschwehm said:
They actually claim that the Watchtower Society is “spirit directed”…which means that they can err in matters of faith and morals as shown by their constant appeal to “new light”.

Basically it works this way…when the Watchtower prints something on faith and morals it is to be considered by JWs as “present truth” which means that it can change in the future. However, the JW is to accept it as the truth on high from God right now and disputing it can result in some sort of disciplinary action such as shunning.

Of course having “present truth”, “past truth”, and “future truth” means you have no truth at all and makes the word truth meaningless.

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
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No doubt I absolutelly agree on the truth issue.

I think it is just a word-play → the distinction between being “spirit-directed” and “inspired”. IMHO, if there’s a difference, it’s just an arbitrary one…:confused:
 
yessisan said:
Hi Zemi! I wanted to say that what I feel is their weakest point is their misinterpretation of the Bible as a whole.

They read it wrong, they translated it wrong, and claim to have it all figured out. They even “study” it wrong w/WT magazines and strange books published by the WT.

Oh, and I’m w/Jeff on the governing body one too. Their religous authority seems strange to me.
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Hi Yessi,

I think the weakest link of their members is that they do not abide by this verse of the Scripture:

Test everything; retain what is good. (NAB)
Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine. (NWT)
(1 Thes 5,21)

A few days ago it occured to me I could make a pamphet for the JWs in my country (Slovakia) starting with this verse.
yessisan said:
Oh, the blood thing… they’re a bit strange, but they (not all) are very nice people, otherwise, I would’ve never married my DH.
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😉 👍
 
zemi said:
Hi Yessi,

I think the weakest link of their members is that they do not abide by this verse of the Scripture:

Test everything; retain what is good. (NAB)
Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine. (NWT)
(1 Thes 5,21)

A few days ago it occured to me I could make a pamphet for the JWs in my country (Slovakia) starting with this verse.

😉 👍
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Yet, most of them don’t even dare to test anything in that organization
 
jschwehm said:
They actually claim that the Watchtower Society is “spirit directed”…which means that they can err in matters of faith and morals as shown by their constant appeal to “new light”.

Basically it works this way…when the Watchtower prints something on faith and morals it is to be considered by JWs as “present truth” which means that it can change in the future. However, the JW is to accept it as the truth on high from God right now and disputing it can result in some sort of disciplinary action such as shunning.

Of course having “present truth”, “past truth”, and “future truth” means you have no truth at all and makes the word truth meaningless.

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
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Jeff,

I back up what you said by this:

It is from the 1954 Scotland trial.

**A **- Haydon C. Covington, former vice-president of the Watchtower Society and its legal counsel.
**Q **- judge
A. Jehovah God is the Creator, the Former and Founder of the organization . . . he is its directive Head . . . it is governed by Jehovah God, the Most High.
Q. It is for that reason that Jehovah’s Witnesses accept without questions doctrines and biblical interpretations as expounded by the Watch Tower . . . through its Directors?
**A. **Yes.
Q. In publications both periodical and in book form?
A. Yes
Code: 
(pp. 24-25 of Pursuer's Proof)
Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he, to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed the instructions issued in The Watchtower or . . . Awake?
A. He must obey those.
Code: 
(p. 123)
Q. You have promulgated – forgive the word – false prophecy?
**A. **We have . . . That was the publication of a false prophecy, it was a false statement . . .
**Q. **And that had to be believed by the whole of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity; we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way; an army is supposed to march in step . . .
Q. If a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses took the view himself that that prophecy was wrong and said so would he be disfellowshiped?
A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organization believes one thing, even though it be erroneous, and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble; there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching together . . . the organization would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.
Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah is using our organization . . . even though mistakes are made from time to time.
Q. And unity based upon a forced acceptance of a false prophecy?
**A. **That is conceded to be true.
**Q. **And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshiped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?
**A. **That is correct.
**Q. **And . . . would be worthy of death? . . .
A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.
Q. Do you call that religion?
**A. **It certainly is.
Q. Do you call it Christianity?
**A. **I certainly do.
Code: 
(pp. 340-343)
Source:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/03/jehovahs-witnesses-apocalyptic-arians.html
 
My current question is how do the JWs understand the Transfiguration (Matt 17)? What took place there, and how was Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah if they were “dead”?
 
BibleSteve said:
watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm
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Steve,
Since this is such a huge issue, would you be willing to make a thread about this SPECIFIC book by the JWs?

I have read articles showing how that book misunderstands the Trinity and the quotes it provides of the Early Church Fathers are actually out of context (the ECFs were Trinitarians). Would you be willing to at least compare the quotes of the ECFs in the JW book with some other quotes by those same ECFs?
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Steve,
Since this is such a huge issue, would you be willing to make a thread about this SPECIFIC book by the JWs?

I have read articles showing how that book misunderstands the Trinity and the quotes it provides of the Early Church Fathers are actually out of context (the ECFs were Trinitarians). Would you be willing to at least compare the quotes of the ECFs in the JW book with some other quotes by those same ECFs?
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I am very familiar with the critiques of this publications by JW critics.

I find the anti-JW agenda on this topic to be far too time wasting for public debate. If anyone reads the link in full and then has sincere follow-on questions, I’d be glad to devote my time to them personally and privately.
 
BibleSteve said:
I find the anti-JW agenda on this topic to be far too time wasting for public debate. If anyone reads the link in full and then has sincere follow-on questions, I’d be glad to devote my time to them personally and privately.
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So you are not prepared to discuss the errors of the Watchtower cult publicly because you allege that we have an “anti-JW” agenda?
 
hosemonkey said:
So you are not prepared to discuss the errors of the Watchtower cult publicly because you allege that we have an “anti-JW” agenda?
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If you are interested in learning about the topic, you will read the link in full. Once you do, please send me a PM and I will be glad to answer any of your questions.
 
BibleSteve,

I wondered… How can you show me that the Governing body has its authority given by God?
 
BibleSteve said:
If you are interested in learning about the topic, you will read the link in full. Once you do, please send me a PM and I will be glad to answer any of your questions.
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I would like to see you defend the errors of the Watchtower cult in this open forum. If it is worth defending, it is worth defending publicly.
 
BibleSteve said:
I am very familiar with the critiques of this publications by JW critics.

** I find the anti-JW agenda** on this topic to be far too time wasting for public debate. If anyone reads the link in full and then has sincere follow-on questions, I’d be glad to devote my time to them personally and privately.
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It isnt so much an “anti-JW” agenda as it is reading the quotes in some context and finding that it does a grave injustice (eg serious misquotes and over simplifying) to the actual text and teaching of the Trinity. As just ONE (of many) examples on page 3 of your link it has a section entitled “Beyond the Grasp of Human Reason” and the first paragraph says:THIS confusion is widespread. The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”
Thats the extent of the quote. I was first informed this was a misquote when I read an apologetics page a year or so ago, since then I picked up the whole Encyclopedia Americana set at a garage sale and I have the actual Encyclopedia Americana 1990 edition, Volume 27 right in front of me now turned to “Trinity”. Here is the full of that very quote:It is held that although the doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason, it is, like many of the formulations of physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind.
This is a very very different picture from the one that the JW quote and description paints. Further, given this encyclopedia entry is only 1.5 pages long it shouldnt be used as an authoritative or even thorough description of the Trinity, merely a quick reference. The fact is that is simply academic dishonesty (it doesnt even include the date of the Encyclopedia) for such a serious issue.
 
zemi said:
I’d like to make this thread to post here any comments about JWs one may have
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They’re wrong on who God is and that pretty much does it for me. Thomas is clear on who Jesus is by saying “My Lord and My God.” God is clear when He says that He created the world by Himself and that he did it with His own hands, a blatant contradiction of the JW creation account. Jesus identified Himself using God titles “I am the First and the Last.” A title that is meant to emphasize the fact that there is only one God, that He is the first God and the last God. The author of Hebrews identified the person being discussed in Psalm 102 as Jesus and that Psalm is about God.

God Bless,
Michael
 
I find the anti-JW agenda on this topic to be far too time wasting for public debate.

Just an observation on BibleSteve’s statement regarding the “anti-JW” agenda of this thread. Every true Catholic should not only be “anti-JW” but also anti-error of any kind, regarding the ancient truths of Christianity. The Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth and to be challenged by an upstart cult who does violence to the very nature of Our Lord should be an alarm to every Catholic who loves the truth. It is a shame that so many good people are taken in by these faulty beliefs, who dedicate their lives to lies and deceitful tactics, all unknowing. I am “anti-JW”, I am anti dishonesty of any kind.
 
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