Discussing JWs

[b_justb]

What do you personally think is the weakest point of JWs/WT?

I don’t know if it’s the weakest, but I think the saddest and most emotionally damaging point the JW’s stress is that relationships are disposable.

Another weak point is that the JW’s wish to exist within a micro chasm made up of themselves only in a subset that attaches to a host of people that they need for existence but deny entrance into the group. Police men, fire fighters, hospital workers, soldiers, government officials, etc. All of these people work to ensure the JW’s have the freedom to pursue their own isolationist micro chasm. But if any of these people show an interest in joining the group they must give up the work they do to join.

 

[zemi]

Another thing is - why do JWs accept the canon of the Bible? And why do they accept 66 books instead of 73 if they do not adhere to traditions of men? Luther had no authority to throw the books out. And yet againg - what what about their Sola Scriptura being unscriptural…

Does any of their publication adress this?! I didn’t find it in “Reasoning from the Scriptures”…

Well, if not, the reason would be obvious…

 

[yessisan]

It isnt so much an “anti-JW” agenda as it is reading the quotes in some context and finding that it does a grave injustice (eg serious misquotes and over simplifying) to the actual text and teaching of the Trinity. As just ONE (of many) examples on page 3 of your link it has a section entitled “Beyond the Grasp of Human Reason” and the first paragraph says:THIS confusion is widespread. The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”

Thats the extent of the quote. I was first informed this was a misquote when I read an apologetics page a year or so ago, since then I picked up the whole Encyclopedia Americana set at a garage sale and I have the actual Encyclopedia Americana 1990 edition, Volume 27 right in front of me now turned to “Trinity”. Here is the full of that very quote:It is held that although the doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason, it is, like many of the formulations of physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind.This is a very very different picture from the one that the JW quote and description paints. Further, given this encyclopedia entry is only 1.5 pages long it shouldnt be used as an authoritative or even thorough description of the Trinity, merely a quick reference. The fact is that is simply academic dishonesty (it doesnt even include the date of the Encyclopedia) for such a serious issue.

This just proves how they misinterpret and misquote everything. Even though you have the proof in front of their faces, they still deny it. Trying to discuss anything w/a JW is by far, the worst thing anyone can do. It wastes your time because they aren’t willing to listen.

Just to show you something regarding that. DH and I had had an argument before because he wanted me to be the “submissive wife” on Ephesians 5:22. But yet, yesterday I took out Good News about Sex and Marriage and read the explanation of that verse, he argued that everyone read and understands the Bible differently. They don’t care if you prove them wrong. They don’t like Catholics, period, they don’t like Christians for all that matters. They want to be the only ones called Christians when in fact they deny what makes a Christian a Christian —> that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God along with the Father.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

I’d like to make this thread to post here any comments about JWs one may have

Yes, I’d like to comment how offended I am by them.

1.They come to my house professing to be Christian and hand me a little booklet that insults the Church I love.

1. They personally sneer at and insult my Church and Faith. Not a good prosyletizing technique.
2. Their literature is such a simple-minded manner it’s insulting they give me it for reading. My preschooler’s religious books have a more expansive vocabulary.
3. “Paradise Earth?” Why would I want to exist eternally separated from God on Earth or anywhere else? Why do they think this would be attractive to me when it’s closer to my idea of Hell than of an ideal afterlife.
4. Utterring blasphemy in front of my children absolutely enrages me.

 

[yessisan]

1. “Paradise Earth?” Why would I want to exist eternally separated from God on Earth or anywhere else? Why do they think this would be attractive to me when it’s closer to my idea of Hell than of an ideal afterlife.

My point exactly!!! Why give up Heaven for a “paradise-like Earth?”

BTW, I agree w/all your points… especially the literature being so plain and simple my 5 yr old cousins could read by day 5 of pre-school. The catechism book I have for first graders is more complex than any JW literature, and yet, my kids (the kids at catechism) seem to understand it just fine.

 

[SirOscar]

Hello All,

I think it might be a good idea to look upon the JW’s as being mis-guided souls and not such a nusiance to be offended by. I think that perhaps we should not only pray, but also try to plant little seeds that might influence them to their journey home. Thus, one day they will one day be enlightened by the “Truth of the Scriptures”

As I was raised a JW’s I am very familiar with all of thier teachings. I am now a Catholic.

Yes, there are many things that the JW’s have misinterpeted from scripture, but all religions are influenced by man, and by man’s imperfection, ALL churches are imperfect.

So next time they knock on your door, be kind to them, and if you are enlightened to plant a seed from truth, invite them in.

If you have any questions you would like to ask me about JW’s I will try my best to answer them.

Thanks

 

[zemi]

This just proves how they misinterpret and misquote everything. Even though you have the proof in front of their faces, they still deny it. Trying to discuss anything w/a JW is by far, the worst thing anyone can do. It wastes your time because they aren’t willing to listen.

1. 1 Thes 5,21: "Test everything; retain what is good."

**2. ** Their publications:

We need to examine . . . what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.

(The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life, 1968, 13)

*Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that all religious teachings should be subjected to this test of agreement with the Scriptures, whether the teaching is offered by them or by someone else. They invite you, urge you, to do this in your discussions with them.

We are sure that you have other questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses and their beliefs. Perhaps some of them are controversial in nature. We would like to answer them.*

(Jehovah’s Witnesses in the 20th Century, 1979, 3-4, 31-32)

How’s that?

 

[zemi]

Hello All,

I think it might be a good idea to look upon the JW’s as being mis-guided souls and not such a nusiance to be offended by. I think that perhaps we should not only pray, but also try to plant little seeds that might influence them to their journey home. Thus, one day they will one day be enlightened by the “Truth of the Scriptures”

As I was raised a JW’s I am very familiar with all of thier teachings. I am now a Catholic.

Yes, there are many things that the JW’s have misinterpeted from scripture, but all religions are influenced by man, and by man’s imperfection, ALL churches are imperfect.

So next time they knock on your door, be kind to them, and if you are enlightened to plant a seed from truth, invite them in.

If you have any questions you would like to ask me about JW’s I will try my best to answer them.

Thanks

Hi, SirOscar, welcome to the CAF and to this thread!

Thank you for your offer of help.

My question was how would a JW show me that the Governing body derives its authority from God?

 

[zemi]

How can those 8,600 living today claim they’re annointed ones? How did they come to that understanding?

 

[yessisan]

Hello All,

I think it might be a good idea to look upon the JW’s as being mis-guided souls and not such a nusiance to be offended by. I think that perhaps we should not only pray, but also try to plant little seeds that might influence them to their journey home. Thus, one day they will one day be enlightened by the “Truth of the Scriptures”

As I was raised a JW’s I am very familiar with all of thier teachings. I am now a Catholic.

Yes, there are many things that the JW’s have misinterpeted from scripture, but all religions are influenced by man, and by man’s imperfection, ALL churches are imperfect.

So next time they knock on your door, be kind to them, and if you are enlightened to plant a seed from truth, invite them in.

If you have any questions you would like to ask me about JW’s I will try my best to answer them.

Thanks

Welcome!!! Please, tell us all you can…

 

[zemi]

Welcome!!! Please, tell us all you can…

We’ll be only glad!

 

[SirOscar]

Hello All,

Zemi, as far as your question about the Governing Body recieving God’s authority, I’m not sure exactly what scripture they would point to. (I’ll have to get some information first) as I do not want to mislead you.

As far as the weakest link, there are a few. Mainly, the Trinity, the hope of an earthy salvation and a heavenly salavation for only 144,000. They believe there is no hell.

I will get back to you soon.

Thanks for your patience

 

[yessisan]

I just came upon this book of the JWs, it’s called “Branch Organization Manual” a book regular JW memebrs will never get their hands on, and look what I just found on it on chapter 25:

**46. BIBLE TRANSLATION
**: When there are sufficient translators and there is the prospect of an adequate circulation of the complete Bible, a request may be made to the Writing Committee to begin work on the New World Translation. A regular edition of the Christian Greek Scriptures without marginal references will be published first. **It is not necessary for Bible translators to know Hebrew and Greek. **They do not necessarily have to be the translators with the most experience, but they should be good translators who are both faithful and willing to follow directions very closely. Both brothers and sisters may be used.

So they even admit on their own publications that the people who translate their bibles do not even have to know Hebrew or Greek, yet they translate from the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures???

Look at this:

**
50. CONFIDENTIALITY**: **It is important that translators keep their work confidential. **Apart from the responsible brothers and those involved in the project, others (including marriage mates and other Bethelites) do not need to know (a) what is being translated and (b) who is translating a particular item. No publication should ever be associated with a particular person. This is specially so in the case of Bible translators. This confidentiality protects both the organization and the translators

Of course, it protects them because they keep no record ofwho does the translations, that way they can hide beneath their mistakes.

 

[yessisan]

Hello All,

Zemi, as far as your question about the Governing Body recieving God’s authority, I’m not sure exactly what scripture they would point to. (I’ll have to get some information first) as I do not want to mislead you.

I found this on that new book I got (mentioned above)…

Chapter one says:

**1. GOVERNING BODY:
**The Governing Body is made up of brothers who are anointed servants of Jehovah God. They act as representatives of the “faithful and discreet slave” class which has the responsibility for giving direction and impetus to the Kingdom work. (Matt. 24:45) While the Governing Body delegates certain details or responsibilities to committees made up of its own members, or committees made up of other dedicated servants of God, or to instruments such as corporations and legal agencies, it always takes the lead for the smooth functioning of the organization and the unity of all of God’s people. As the Governing Body, it has the prerogative to use its discretion and look into any matters it deems necessary to examine with regard to the Kingdom work. To oversee various aspects of the work, committees have been established as follows.

My guess would be they point to Matt 24 as mentioned on this quote

 

[yessisan]

1. 1 Thes 5,21: "Test everything; retain what is good."

**2. **Their publications:

We need to examine . . . what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.

(The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life, 1968, 13)

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that all religious teachings should be subjected to this test of agreement with the Scriptures, whether the teaching is offered by them or by someone else. They invite you, urge you, to do this in your discussions with them.

We are sure that you have other questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses and their beliefs. Perhaps some of them are controversial in nature. We would like to answer them.

(Jehovah’s Witnesses in the 20th Century, 1979, 3-4, 31-32)

How’s that?

I found this on freeminds.org from an old WT publication:

Why you should encourage Jehovah’s Witnesses to read their older literature!
Use this in your witnessing to Witnesses!
Watchtower May 15, 1957 pp.313-315 Appreciating Basic Christian Publications:
…Their zeal for knowledge may even prompt them to dig back into things that were published long before they came into the truth, expanding and deepening their understanding, and ever growing in Christian maturity. Do you dig into our older publications to expand and deepen your knowledge on subjects about which questions arise? Have you really studied these earlier publications? … How is your background of knowledge? … Never think: “Oh, I know most of that.” For you will find, indeed, that you do not and that you will be strengthened by your additional study… once you have completed your study of them you can then look to even older publications… Only by studying earlier publications and digging back through previous issues of The Watchtower kept in the library at your local Kingdom Hall. There is much in the way of spiritual riches and aid toward mature knowledge in these earlier publications, and their study is most certainly worth your time.

So they tell them to read the older versions, but why get rid of the old publications? Why edit them? To hide the truth!

 

[zemi]

Hello All,

Zemi, as far as your question about the Governing Body recieving God’s authority, I’m not sure exactly what scripture they would point to. (I’ll have to get some information first) as I do not want to mislead you.

As far as the weakest link, there are a few. Mainly, the Trinity, the hope of an earthy salvation and a heavenly salavation for only 144,000. They believe there is no hell.

I will get back to you soon.

Thanks for your patience

Thank you, SirOscar

In effort to find sth about it I dug up this:

The Bible book, Acts of Apostles, discloses that this anointed Christian congregation as a “slave” class had a visible, earthly governing body. On that day of Pentecost it was composed of twelve men, namely, the twelve apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. Years later, about the year 49 C.E., this governing body was reported to include the then surviving apostles of Christ and the spiritual elders of the Jerusalem congregation. (Acts, chapter 15) This Christian governing body did not use as an administrative agency any legal corporation recognized, authorized and chartered by Caesar or any province of the Roman Empire. The decree issued was written up and carried by personal messengers to the Christian congregations that were concerned because of the non-Jewish or Gentile converts among them. The Christian apostle John, who wrote the last books of the Holy Bible toward the close of the first century C.E., was apparently the last surviving member of the original governing body appointed by Jesus Christ.

Centuries passed. Came the month of July of the year 1879. Then there appeared on the scene a new religious magazine called Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence. It was then to be published monthly, at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., its first issue comprising only 6,000 copies. Its editor and publisher was a sincere Christian man, Charles Taze Russell, and the names of five other regular contributors to the magazine were announced.

Source:
(Watchtower 1971, 12/15 p. 756)

Quite big leap I would say between those 2 paragraphs!!! Hm, I wonder… what happened to the governing body meanwhile?

was apparently the last surviving member of the original governing body —> that’s part of my question. What do they have to back it up? And what proof do they have for the 19th century governing body having God’s authority?

Charles Taze Russell —> A **sincere **Christian man! LOL!!!

Something about Russell then:

The transcript ("Russell vs. Ross – Defamatory Libel) shows Russell admitting to having attended school for only seven years and dropping out at fourteen. Russell testified that he knew the Greek alphabet, but when asked to identify Greek letters, he admitted, “I don’t know that I would be able to.” Later, he said that he knew nothing about Latin or Hebrew, and had never taken a course in philosophy or theology. A short time before, he had sworn just the opposite. When asked, “Is it true you were never ordained?,” he said, “It is not true,” but later confessed, “I never was.” Russell also swore that his wife had not separated from him, and had not been granted alimony. Both assertions were later shown to be false. She had separated from Russell on 9 November 1897 and, after sensational court testimony, was granted a legal separation in 1906 and $6,036 in alimony. Russell’s lawyer was none other than Joseph F. Rutherford, his successor as President of the Watchtower Society.

Charles Taze Russell had lost another libel suit less than two months before, this time to the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, with regard to his infamous “miracle wheat” moneymaking scheme. The newspaper recounted these events in its obituary of Russell (1 November 1916):

"Pastor" Russell's Watch Tower publication advertised wheat seed for sale at $1.00 a pound . . . it was asserted that it would grow five times as much as any other brand of wheat . . . Government departments investigated the wheat . . . The "Miracle Wheat" was low in the Government tests . . . The Eagle won the suit.

Also, during this trial, it was revealed that The Watchtower had printed reports of alleged sermons preached by Russell in Hawaii that in fact had never occurred (Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 19 February 1912, p. 18). The Court declared:

It was shown in many cases that the sermons were never delivered in the places that were claimed.

Source
socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/03/jehovahs-witnesses-apocalyptic-arians.html

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

the weakest point in the 'Borg in my opinion is their refusal to accept the internet. It will be their undoing. Forbidden books and conversations can take place in total anonymity now. Take BibleSteve for instance, JWs are told to stay away from the internet and forums and not do what he does—talk to ‘apostates’ and unbelievers on a forum that is for Catholics! 10 years ago when I left if I had been doing what he does just on this forum alone—who knows where else he posts–I would have been disfellowshipped. I was told by an elder not to email a friend who’s brother had died!
JWs have only one official webpage and if you do a Google on ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ you get 1,840,000 choices–and that is if you spell it correctly. Spell it wrong and there are even more. That is what I did, back over 10 years ago…I did a web search and thot to myself–‘wait a minute…not every single one of these pages can be wrong, can they?’ so a I read a few of them…the rest is history.

 

[zemi]

the weakest point in the 'Borg in my opinion is their refusal to accept the internet. It will be their undoing. Forbidden books and conversations can take place in total anonymity now. Take BibleSteve for instance, JWs are told to stay away from the internet and forums and not do what he does—talk to ‘apostates’ and unbelievers on a forum that is for Catholics! 10 years ago when I left if I had been doing what he does just on this forum alone—who knows where else he posts–I would have been disfellowshipped. I was told by an elder not to email a friend who’s brother had died!
JWs have only one official webpage and if you do a Google on ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ you get 1,840,000 choices–and that is if you spell it correctly. Spell it wrong and there are even more. That is what I did, back over 10 years ago…I did a web search and thot to myself–‘wait a minute…not every single one of these pages can be wrong, can they?’ so a I read a few of them…the rest is history.

Thank you, Ravyn_Guiliani,

great post!

We’re glad you’re on the right side with us now!

PS: I tried it. 1 910 000 search results now

 

[brother_Reyden]

Jehova’s witness believe that Jesus Christ is Michael arcangel, this is non-biblical claim. This is a strange claim of witness. We

 

[zemi]

Jehova’s witness believe that Jesus Christ is Michael arcangel, this is non-biblical claim. This is a strange claim of witness. We

Welcome to CAF, brother Reyden

Yes, it is. Though they want to make it look biblical.