Discussing the Catholic understanding of Baptism with Nondenominationals

[Psalm45_9]

Last night while at work, that group of Anti-Catholic nondenominationals from the the Believer’s Chapel came in as they always do. They were dissing Catholics because of our teaching of Baptism and its necessity. One brought up “baptism in the spirit.” He used Luke 23:43 as evidence of this. However, I know the church teaches the baptism of desire, as St. Augustine describes Luke 23:43 in this Catholic Answer’s tract: catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

It has gotten to the point where after listening to them for a year and half every Saturday night bickering and making jokes a church that they don’t understand; I am ready to let them know that they have built themselves a nice straw man. I don’t care if I lose my part time job because of it. Does anyone have any ideas about how I could tell them the Catholic understanding of Baptism in light of Luke 23:43? Who knows, I may direct them here, so everyone might have a new bunch of people to talk with.

 

[1Stephen1]

Protestant seeking more here…

I was raised in the Methodist church and baptized as a baby. After falling way…far away…from the church in my teenage/young adult years, I came back and accepted Jesus into my life. What I learned in the Methodist church was that everyone in the church should be baptized. In the Baptist church, I learned that it was individual choice and you should be baptized when you accept Christ.

This has been practice in my life for the past 9 years or so. I have three children, none of them have been baptized becasue we were waiting until the time that they could make their own decision for Christ.

Am I doing disservice to God and to my children by not having them baptized until they can make the decision on their own?

 

[Catholic2003]

I always thought “baptism in the spirit” was the non-denominational way of referring to confirmation.

 

[Todd_Easton]

1Stephen1:

Am I doing disservice to God and to my children by not having them baptized until they can make the decision on their own?

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) there are two principle effects of baptism: “purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.” (CCC, 1262) Although there is no need for a child below the age of reason to be purified from his sins, everyone no matter what their age can benefit from new birth in the Holy Spirit. The question is, do you want your child to become “‘a new creature,’ an adopted son of God, … a ‘partaker of the divine nature,’ member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit” now or later? (CCC, 1265)

 

[TNT]

1Stephen1:

Protestant seeking more here…

I was raised in the Methodist church and baptized as a baby. After falling way…far away…from the church in my teenage/young adult years, I came back and accepted Jesus into my life. What I learned in the Methodist church was that everyone in the church should be baptized. In the Baptist church, I learned that it was individual choice and you should be baptized when you accept Christ.

This has been practice in my life for the past 9 years or so. I have three children, none of them have been baptized becasue we were waiting until the time that they could make their own decision for Christ.

Am I doing disservice to God and to my children by not having them baptized until they can make the decision on their own?

As long as you do the same for their US citizenship and maybe even their immunity shots, you’d be consistent.
Oh. and tell the Jews not to circumcise infants into their religion, regardless of what God said.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the justice of the faith, which he had; … circumcision is a SEAL of the FAITH??? On an 8 day old infant as well???

I know that somewhere the Scriptures tell us that a natural birth merits heaven until one decides in later life, I just can’t locate it for some reason.
I did stumble accross this:
Ephesians 2:3 In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

 

[MMG]

When my priest explained baptism, confirmation etc. and how we receive the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit equips us for a life in Christ, my thoughts is to baptize or confirm immediately. Why would I not want my children to have the grace of the Holy Spirit to help them in their lives. Sooner than later!!

 

[TNT]

Todd Easton:

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) there are two principle effects of baptism: “purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.” (CCC, 1262) Although there is no need for a child below the age of reason to be purified from his sins, everyone no matter what their age can benefit from new birth in the Holy Spirit. The question is, do you want your child to become “‘a new creature,’ an adopted son of God, … a ‘partaker of the divine nature,’ member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit” now or later? (CCC, 1265)

BULLSEYE!
THAT is how each soul ontologically PARTICPATES in the redemption! They receive the GRACE (completely unmerited) of the Redemption. Infant Baptism only proves that Grace is wholly Unmerited and gratuitous as the protestant proclaims.
Their PARTICIPATION in that redemption is to be immediate, not 10 years later…if at all.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Todd Easton:

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) there are two principle effects of baptism: “purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.” (CCC, 1262) Although there is no need for a child below the age of reason to be purified from his sins, everyone no matter what their age can benefit from new birth in the Holy Spirit. The question is, do you want your child to become “‘a new creature,’ an adopted son of God, … a ‘partaker of the divine nature,’ member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit” now or later? (CCC, 1265)

Thank you this does help me alot.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Stephen,

Baptism is justification. It makes us adopted children of God and heirs to heaven. Although an adult must signifiy his consent by an act of faith, justification is still a free gift from God, so that a child may receive it as well as an adult.

By not baptizing your children, you are depriving them of the indwelling of the Holy Trinity, and should they, which God forbid, die unbaptized, their status in the other world is uncertain.

Verbum

PS Some Catholic theologians believe that unbaptized children may enjoy a “natural” happiness, that is they will not see God “face to face”, as stated by St. Paul, but they will see him as reflected in his creation.
V.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Psalm45:9:

Does anyone have any ideas about how I could tell them the Catholic understanding of Baptism in light of Luke 23:43?

Baptism for the disciples of Christ didn’t become obligatory until after Jesus’ Resurrection when he commanded his Apostles to make and baptize disciples. (Matthew 28:19) The good thief died before Jesus’ Resurrection and so, like the Patriarchs before him, was not under an obligation to be baptized. Likewise, those (the invincibly ignorant) today who do not know the will of Jesus concerning baptism and even those who do know and have the desire to be baptized but not the means are not under an obligation to be baptized because God does not hold people responsible for what they do not know or for what they are not able to do; God will judge them by what they do know and what they are able to do:
47And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. (Luke 12:47-48)

 

[Todd_Easton]

TNT:

BULLSEYE!
THAT is how each soul ontologically PARTICPATES in the redemption! They receive the GRACE (completely unmerited) of the Redemption. Infant Baptism only proves that Grace is wholly Unmerited and gratuitous as the protestant proclaims.
Their PARTICIPATION in that redemption is to be immediate, not 10 years later…if at all.

I think you misunderstood my respose. I was trying to point out all the immediate benefits that baptism would bring a child even before he was old enough to make his own decision for Christ.

 

[Tonks40]

Todd Easton:

I think you misunderstood my respose. I was trying to point out all the immediate benefits that baptism would bring a child even before he was old enough to make his own decision for Christ.

I don’t see him disagreeing with you here

 

[Psalm45_9]

Todd Easton:

Baptism for the disciples of Christ didn’t become obligatory until after Jesus’ Resurrection when he commanded his Apostles to make and baptize disciples. (Matthew 28:19) The good thief died before Jesus’ Resurrection and so, like the Patriarchs before him, was not under an obligation to be baptized. Likewise, those (the invincibly ignorant) today who do not know the will of Jesus concerning baptism and even those who do know and have the desire to be baptized but not the means are not under an obligation to be baptized because God does not hold people responsible for what they do not know or for what they are not able to do; God will judge them by what they do know and what they are able to do:47And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. (Luke 12:47-48)

Excellent!