Discussion on the Qu'ran and Hadith

[Reuben_J]

And that is happening despite that the prophet let Christians pray at his mosque in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago

Praise Allah that was good. It would be good if the prophet followers keep the tradition.

 

[planten]

The difference I read is Abraham sacrificed Isaac in the OT, as opposed to Abraham sacrificed Ismael in Islam.

**swariffin, that is correct. But my question was: Did you notice any difference in the verses of the bibleOT while Moses was inside Egypt and those verses which pertain to Moses having come out of Egypt. There is quite a lot of difference in temper and modus operandi.

Will you please tell the difference. Then you will be happy and satisfied about the verses of Quran which were revealed in Makkah and those revealed in Madinah.**

 

[R_not]

The difference I read is Abraham sacrificed Isaac in the OT, as opposed to Abraham sacrificed Ismael in Islam.

Keep in mind that they keep using their koran and mohammed asserted that the Bible was corrupted. They have not proven it other than by some wishful thinking of an illiterate pagan who was getting ‘info’ from a god who kept changing its mind all the time.

Muhammad incorporated a skewed mix of Jewish and Christian teachings within his “revelations” in an effort to draw converts from those faiths. He even claimed that Allah was the “same God” as the God of Jews and Christians. (Qur’an: 029.046) However, his theological interpretations about God conflicted with those taught by Jews and Christians, thus, Muhammad began to encounter resistance from them as well as from his own tribe. Herein are a few discrepances between the Islamic God, Allah and the Jewish God, Yahweh:

1.) Allah gave different instructions to Moses, than those of Yahweh: *

“And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said: 'Strike the rock with thy staff. Then gushed therefrom twelve springs.”’
(Quran:002.060)

This conflicts with the Old Testament teaching where God instructed Moses to “Speak” to the rock - not strike it:

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water…” (Numbers 20: 7-12)

The Fact is, Moses struck the rock with his staff and water did gush forth!
However, because he had disobeyed God by not speaking to the rock as
instructed, Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. This is a noteworthy discrepancy whereby only one account can be the correct one. Either God’s instructions to Moses were to “strike” the rock or they were to “speak” to the rock.

• Note: Qur’an 002.060 concurs with Exodus 17:6 where God asked Moses to strike the rock the first time. However, the Qur’an fails to mention the second event and resulting failure of Moses to obey God as mentioned in Numbers 20:7-12. By not providing the account of the second incident, the Qur’an is misleading as it fails to give an accurate report of the complete instructions that God had given during the time of Moses’ leadership.

Another theological discrepancy between Allah and Yahweh is regarding the specific color of the heiffer that is to be offered in the cleansing sacrifice.
Islamic theology states that Allah requires a “Yellow” heiffer, but in the Old Testament, Yahweh instructs Moses to offer a pure “Red” heiffer. Herein are the instructions from both views:

The Qur’an reads:

“They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.” (Qur’an: 002.069)

TheOld Testament reads:
“And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:” (Numbers 19: 1-2)

Here again we have Islamic and Judaic theology conflicting on God’s instructions that were given to Moses. However, the color of the heiffer must be of significant importance in that it determines the only one that can be acceptable to God as an offering during the Temple rites. Did God require Moses to acquire a “Yellow” heiffer or a “Red” heiffer?

Here is yet another discrepancy regarding God’s instructions. This is where God has commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son strictly as a test of faith.
Islam teaches that Allah gave Abraham a “dream” instructing him to sacrifice Ishmael, the out-of-wedlock son of Abraham and Hagar. Yet, the Old Testament indicates that God audibly spoke to Abraham giving him instructions to place his son, Isaac (the only son of Abraham and Sarah) on the sacrificial altar.

The Qur’an reads:

“…O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: “O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!”
(Qur’an: 037.102)

The Old Testament reads:
"…And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.” (Genesis: 22: 1-2)

This was only a test of faith upon Abraham as God did not intend for Isaac to be the sacrificial offering. However, God honored Abraham’s faith and provided a sacrificial ram to take Isaac’s place. (Genesis: 22:13)

islam_doc

There are MANY differences in Genesis too. mohammed also said that there were 7 different heavens. And the differences in the New Testament abound - well, I suppose they had to since mohammed set himself up as a ‘prophet’.

 

[JLSamuel818]

I got this email from the website of Walid Shoebat Foundation about the Mumbai massacre.

**Please pray for the families of Gavriel and Rifka Holtzberg and all the victims of the Mumbai terror massacre. For those who did not read the reports, the Jewish victims were tortured beyond belief before being murdered. The doctors said the torture was so bad they could not even describe. We must awaken the world to deal with this evil which so far we will not face with the correct action.

Jewish people must understand the danger they are once again facing and only 63 years after the end of the last Holocaust. They must understand the danger is based on a Nazi style ideology with a religious connotation. It is not poverty, it is not a victim grievance but a evil ideology that has the primary goal to KILL ALL JEWS and subjugate everyone else. The concept of “killing all jews on Judgement Day” is repeated as a bed time prayer/story to most Muslim kids. Think about this, please!! We are in troubling times, financially and for our physical and spiritual well being. We must face reality with courage and tenacity. We must remember our great leaders of world war two and how they led our free nations. I cannot say we can follow the example of our existing bunch of leaders who are making things worse not better.**

Walid will speak this Saturday night in Greenville NC and also on Sunday morning and Sunday evening in Raleigh NC. If anyone wishes to attend, that lives in these areas please email us at walid@shoebat.com and we will give you the exact details.

I wish I were there again (I was stationed there in North Carolina in the USMC). When he spoke here in the Bay ARea it was so full we were turned away.

How terrible!

 

[R_not]

How terrible!

Yes, why do you think I try to get the real truth about islam out?

The so called ‘moderates’ do NOTHING to stop this. Their so called ‘muslim charities’ fund this and also give money to the jihadist’s families for this type of behavior.

Here is a story that shows that muslims do indeed get out there to parade around and get out there when they want something (well, other examples are the riots in Africa when they didn’t get their way in a recent election last month, parade in NYC, cartoons, etc)

muslims protest banners, but not Mumbai bombings

Also keep in mind that the DVD called ‘The Third Jihad’ was made by what I consider a true peaceful muslim, Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, who wanted to protest all this violence - and now he is an outcast and muslims draw cartoons of him as a dog.

I find all of this very hypocritical and the muslims on these threads, to me, try to convince us of some far fetched idea that islam is indeed peaceful when the terrorist attacks against non-muslims speak differently. The violence against their own women should tell us that it is not very peaceful either - and that is all endorsed and encouraged behavior coming from THEIR koran.

 

[Nicolas]

Y
Also keep in mind that the DVD called ‘The Third Jihad’ was made by what I consider a true peaceful muslim, Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, who wanted to protest all this violence - and now he is an outcast and muslims draw cartoons of him as a dog.
.

You have always said in this forum that there is no “peaceful” Muslim in the world,now you have changed your mind !!

so according your own definition , any Muslim who protests against violence is a peaceful muslim …but last time I checked , the muslims here condemned violence…

 

[Lapell]

There is much double standard in christianity.

Easy to say from the outside!

Everything good for Jesus.

• Lapell speaking: Only God is only good, you know! And if Jesus is a divine person, which He claimed and the Church has continually claimed, it would follow, wouldn’t it?.. I know you don’t believe it, though. It doesn’t follow from your not believing it that it’s necessarily untrue.

Love for Jesus. Everything bad for muhammad. hatred for muhammad.

Have you not read my post right after that one?
Moreover, I did not do this on purpose, O.K.? I was expecting it to come out quite otherwise, sir!
Now I can see I cannot consider you a friend, I mean it, sir… Too bad, for I had tried to be a friend to you, planten, whatever you may have thought, but now, forget it, I won’t suffer such behaviour anymore.
Salaam to those really faithful to the One True God, they don’t use intimidation towards those who think otherwise than they do. Now bye!

 

[R_not]

You have always said in this forum that there is no “peaceful” Muslim in the world,now you have changed your mind !!

so according your own definition , any Muslim who protests against violence is a peaceful muslim …but last time I checked , the muslims here condemned violence…

Did you even read your own question?!

The muslims here condemn violence and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. They make excuses for it, they won’t even deny bin Laden, Hamas, or any of that ilk.

You don’t even know about what this doctor has done and you start blasting me. He has tried to organize muslims and do what the phoney ‘moderates’ do and do SOMETHING.

learn the difference between ‘lip service’ and true peace. These muslims post abrogated surahs, they don’t even acknowledge the brutality of the treatment of their own women! They have called me a kafir which you know as well as I do that means that in islam I am ok to be killed. What kind of a peaceful muslim is that when all I do is show them their own koran and hadiths?!



Then there are those who are just ‘useful idiots’.

The muslims on these threads are also doing da’wa and we were told that outright by one of them. that is the call to islam before the jihad (well, da’wa is a jihad, but it only fits into the 3% that is discussed in the koran and if we do not accept - it is either death or subjugation).

I think you need to learn your own koran.

 

[R_not]

This is the kind of junk that we are supposed to accept as ‘peaceful’. While many ignorant ones may think that - I certainly do not.

Rashid Khalidi

take note how he talks one way to non-muslims and another way, with hate and vitriole about non-muslims to muslims. "Khalidi uses rational, peaceful language when addressing English-speaking audiences, yet switches to virulent diatribes when speaking Arabic."

the passage here is why we get the ‘forked tongue’ from way too many not realizing that we have people who know Arab, or are learning it: Bukhari:V6B60N662 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.’”

 

[swariffin]

Keep in mind that they keep using their koran and mohammed asserted that the Bible was corrupted. They have not proven it other than by some wishful thinking of an illiterate pagan who was getting ‘info’ from a god who kept changing its mind all the time.

Muhammad incorporated a skewed mix of Jewish and Christian teachings within his “revelations” in an effort to draw converts from those faiths. He even claimed that Allah was the “same God” as the God of Jews and Christians. (Qur’an: 029.046) However, his theological interpretations about God conflicted with those taught by Jews and Christians, thus, Muhammad began to encounter resistance from them as well as from his own tribe. Herein are a few discrepances between the Islamic God, Allah and the Jewish God, Yahweh:

1.) Allah gave different instructions to Moses, than those of Yahweh: *

“And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said: 'Strike the rock with thy staff. Then gushed therefrom twelve springs.”’
(Quran:002.060)

This conflicts with the Old Testament teaching where God instructed Moses to “Speak” to the rock - not strike it:

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water…” (Numbers 20: 7-12)

The Fact is, Moses struck the rock with his staff and water did gush forth!
However, because he had disobeyed God by not speaking to the rock as
instructed, Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. This is a noteworthy discrepancy whereby only one account can be the correct one. Either God’s instructions to Moses were to “strike” the rock or they were to “speak” to the rock.

• Note: Qur’an 002.060 concurs with Exodus 17:6 where God asked Moses to strike the rock the first time. However, the Qur’an fails to mention the second event and resulting failure of Moses to obey God as mentioned in Numbers 20:7-12. By not providing the account of the second incident, the Qur’an is misleading as it fails to give an accurate report of the complete instructions that God had given during the time of Moses’ leadership.

Another theological discrepancy between Allah and Yahweh is regarding the specific color of the heiffer that is to be offered in the cleansing sacrifice.
Islamic theology states that Allah requires a “Yellow” heiffer, but in the Old Testament, Yahweh instructs Moses to offer a pure “Red” heiffer. Herein are the instructions from both views:

The Qur’an reads:

“They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.” (Qur’an: 002.069)

TheOld Testament reads:
“And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:” (Numbers 19: 1-2)

Here again we have Islamic and Judaic theology conflicting on God’s instructions that were given to Moses. However, the color of the heiffer must be of significant importance in that it determines the only one that can be acceptable to God as an offering during the Temple rites. Did God require Moses to acquire a “Yellow” heiffer or a “Red” heiffer?

Here is yet another discrepancy regarding God’s instructions. This is where God has commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son strictly as a test of faith.
Islam teaches that Allah gave Abraham a “dream” instructing him to sacrifice Ishmael, the out-of-wedlock son of Abraham and Hagar. Yet, the Old Testament indicates that God audibly spoke to Abraham giving him instructions to place his son, Isaac (the only son of Abraham and Sarah) on the sacrificial altar.

The Qur’an reads:

“…O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: “O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!”
(Qur’an: 037.102)

The Old Testament reads:
"…And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.” (Genesis: 22: 1-2)

This was only a test of faith upon Abraham as God did not intend for Isaac to be the sacrificial offering. However, God honored Abraham’s faith and provided a sacrificial ram to take Isaac’s place. (Genesis: 22:13)

islam_doc

There are MANY differences in Genesis too. mohammed also said that there were 7 different heavens. And the differences in the New Testament abound - well, I suppose they had to since mohammed set himself up as a ‘prophet’.

Thanks R_not, that is what a brothership for. You answered Planten for me, even before I see his question.

 

[JLSamuel818]

Thanks R_not, that is what a brothership for. You answered Planten for me, even before I see his question.

He knows his stuff.

 

[planten]

planten;4504616:

There is much double standard in christianity.

Easy to say from the outside!

Everything good for Jesus.

• Lapell speaking: Only God is only good, you know! And if Jesus is a divine person, which He claimed and the Church has continually claimed, it would follow, wouldn’t it?.. I know you don’t believe it, though. It doesn’t follow from your not believing it that it’s necessarily untrue.

Have you not read my post right after that one?
Moreover, I did not do this on purpose, O.K.? I was expecting it to come out quite otherwise, sir!
Now I can see I cannot consider you a friend, I mean it, sir… Too bad, for I had tried to be a friend to you, planten, whatever you may have thought, but now, forget it, I won’t suffer such behaviour anymore.
Salaam to those really faithful to the One True God, they don’t use intimidation towards those who think otherwise than they do. Now bye!

That was your mistake. I did not know who did it. After sending my post, later I read your next post that it was done by you by mistake. So what is the hurry in breaking off friendship? Thank you for being un-freindly.

 

[R_not]

oops, I posted this on the wrong thread - I meant to post it in ‘Ask About islam 2’, but I will leave it here since it is a good online book - free - and very informative.

Jihad

The above is an excellent source for jihad. It is a book, JIHÃD - THE ISLAMIC DOCTRINE OF PERMANENT WAR, Suhas Majumdar
Voice of India, New Delhi

In past posts I have noted that another jihad was declared on India late last year (2007). they have already had three major jihads, and at one point I gave this website for some history of India’s jihads.

Well, this book really is a no nonsense, no holds barred, discussion about jihad. I am still reading it and am quite impressed.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Thanks to the change of name of the thread; which brings in new vistas of thought, logically.

Following do come to my mind:
If we want to make a comparative study of revealed religions; one important method is to compare the status of its three sources of guidance.

1. The Text Proper.

The original text of the Word revealed on the Master/recipient of revelation, in the original living language; which make it easy for reference in case of any doubt if misunderstood.

1. The Acts Proper.

The Master/Principal recipient should perform all the basic acts that are mentioned in the Word revealed on him from the Creator; such as rituals that are to be done on daily, weakly, monthly or yearly intervals, so that there is no ambiguity left in the minds of those who follow the Book.

1. The Tradition Proper.

Then there are addresses done by the Master/Principal or talks done or other events occurring which are only explanatory of the category one and two mentioned above.

These are essential, three sources of guidance; which a sincere person making a study/research for finding truth should have in mind. He should make comparative study as to how the adherents of a religion have cared for the Word of God. The status would give a true picture.

One could also find out what system for correction is given in the Book Revealed, if the adherents of a religion go wrong, for any omission or commission of theirs.

Thanks

 

[planten]

Thanks R_not, that is what a brothership for. You answered Planten for me, even before I see his question.

** swariffin, I do not read what R_not has written and I do not read extra long posts. I had asked you the questions. Now if you have understood (absorbed) the knowledge given to you by R_Not then please bring it to me in your own words. Thanks. Otherwise I would understand that you understood nothing. Please be concise.**

 

[swariffin]

** swariffin, I do not read what R_not has written and I do not read extra long posts. I had asked you the questions. Now if you have understood (absorbed) the knowledge given to you by R_Not then please bring it to me in your own words. Thanks. Otherwise I would understand that you understood nothing. Please be concise.**

To make it short, I just pick one. In the OT, God did not allow Moses to enter the promised land, because God said that Moses has committed sin (See Numbers 27:14), Moses admitted that God was unhappy with him (Deuteronomy 3:26).

Quran did not say that Moses committed any sins, even you say that what Moses did was not a sin at all.

So, my dear Planten. That is the difference of OT and Quran in which I see that Muhammad was (a) made a mistake of taking the word of Allah, (b) Denying the word of Allah which actually has been proven by the death of Moses prior to entering the Holy Land, and (c) The source of Muhammad is different from Allah, i.e. Muhammad has been tricked.

By the way, is my posting too long for you? If yes, I will shorten it more.

 

[Eucharisted]

Remember to keep on topic or else the Mods will close this thread. I’m not singling anyone out, just giving a little reminder to everyone.

Which hadiths do Muslims consider authetic, and how are the hadiths deemed authentic? Like, is it something in the text or is there some research done or what?

 

[planten]

To make it short, I just pick one. In the OT, God did not allow Moses to enter the promised land, because God said that Moses has committed sin (See Numbers 27:14), Moses admitted that God was unhappy with him (Deuteronomy 3:26).

Quran did not say that Moses committed any sins, even you say that what Moses did was not a sin at all.

So, my dear Planten. That is the difference of OT and Quran in which I see that Muhammad was (a) made a mistake of taking the word of Allah, (b) Denying the word of Allah which actually has been proven by the death of Moses prior to entering the Holy Land, and (c) The source of Muhammad is different from Allah, i.e. Muhammad has been tricked.

By the way, is my posting too long for you? If yes, I will shorten it more.

swariffin, that is not the reply to my question. I wanted to know about the difference in the tempo of the bibleOT verses which were revealed while Moses was inside Egypt and those verses of OT which were revealed after he came out of Egypt. Please see my post #301:
**swariffin, that is correct. But my question was: Did you notice any difference in the verses of the bibleOT while Moses was inside Egypt and those verses which pertain to Moses having come out of Egypt. There is quite a lot of difference in temper and modus operandi.

Will you please tell the difference. Then you will be happy and satisfied about the verses of Quran which were revealed in Makkah and those revealed in Madinah.**

 

[paarsurrey]

Remember to keep on topic or else the Mods will close this thread. I’m not singling anyone out, just giving a little reminder to everyone.

Which hadiths do Muslims consider authetic, and how are the hadiths deemed authentic? Like, is it something in the text or is there some research done or what?

Hi

I agree with Eucharisted that everybody should adhere to the topic of the thread , which is now “Discussion on the Qu’ran and Hadith”.

I think i did mention in one of my posts here, may be in another thread as to how Hadith is to be understood.

I give an excerpt from it:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4500801&postcount=27

"We understand that the status of NTBible is not even of a Hadith in Muslims. NTBible was not dictated by Jesus, as was not the Hadith dictated by Muhammad; but Muslims scrutinized Hadith with the chains of persons narrating it (technically called rivayat) and then its comparison with standard book Quran for the meaning (technically called drayat). If Hadith was not according to Quran it was not to be practiced.

So, our Catholic friends here for no fault of theirs had nothing with them dictated directly from Jesus; well, I am sorry for that. Jesus might have left that for Muhammad."

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

**swariffin, that is correct. But my question was: Did you notice any difference in the verses of the bibleOT while Moses was inside Egypt and those verses which pertain to Moses having come out of Egypt. There is quite a lot of difference in temper and modus operandi.

Will you please tell the difference. Then you will be happy and satisfied about the verses of Quran which were revealed in Makkah and those revealed in Madinah.**

Why don’t you just tell us if you detect any difference instead of going on a wild goose chase. It has been after many posts already and you still keep us in suspense. What’s the great idea?

I am interested to know what an Ahmadi knows about the Bible that I do not know.