Discussion topic Scripture states God drove the man out of the Garden of Eden. The woman wasnt mentioned

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NevermoreLenore said:
Forgive me if this is beyond the purview of that which you want to discuss from the OP, but the phrase “you shall be eager for your husband” piques my interest… What does “eager for” mean, specifically; that is, what does this look like in practical terms? … What are the implications of this idea for a wife in current times?
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That opens to the door to the periodic discussion / debate threads concerning
the duties a wife has to a husband along with duties a husband has to his wife.

Beyond what’s in the OT and NT _ The Catholic Church offers many teachings in detail …
Including St. Pope John Paul II’s Exhortation Familiaris consortio on The Role of the Christian Family

re: Eager?

Let’s compare
Gen 3:16 - Latin Vulgate
16mulieri quoque dixit multiplicabo aerumnas tuas et conceptus tuos in dolore paries filios et sub viri potestate eris et ipse dominabitur tui
16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

Gen 16 - Septuagint
16 καὶ τῇ γυναικὶ εἶπε· πληθύνων πληθυνῶ τὰς λύπας σου καὶ τὸν στεναγμόν σου· ἐν λύπαις τέξῃ τέκνα, καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἄνδρα σου ἡ ἀποστροφή σου, καὶ αὐτός σου κυριεύσει.
16 And to the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pains and thy groanings; in pain thou shalt bring forth children, and thy submission shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee

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What are the implications of this idea for a wife in current times?

That depends upon the culture - along with what a husband and wife will to allow…
which in turn can reflect Teachings contained within respective Religions thereof…

And beyond offering what the Church Teaches as an answer within this Catholic Forum,
it Opens the door to potential almost endless opinions and debate
 
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EndTimes said:
What are the implications of this idea for a wife in current times?

That depends upon the culture - along with what a husband and wife will to allow…
which in turn can reflect Teachings contained within respective Religions thereof…
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Let me be more specific: what are the implications of this idea (that a woman will be “eager for” her husband) for a Catholic wife during current times. This is a Catholic discussion, so what does it mean for me–a Catholic wife–to be eager for my husband?
EndTimes said:
Opens the door to potential almost endless opinions and debate
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Whilst I’m not seeking endless debate, my inquiry was for people to offer opinions. :woman_shrugging:t2:
 
NevermoreLenore said:
Let me be more specific: what are the implications of this idea (that a woman will be “eager for” her husband) for a Catholic wife during current times. This is a Catholic discussion, so what does it mean for me–a Catholic wife–to be eager for my husband?
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“eager” is but one ambiguous translation of the known originals - of which I’ve posted.
and of which speak of a husband in the more modern - head of the household manner.

And being “eager” is ambiguous - it can be taken in several manners.

Such as when a husband’s away for awhile … some wives “long” for their husband’s return…
Or. how some women “dearly want” to be married to a loving husband

Wives in Current Times? That’s unspecific, yes?

_
 
EndTimes said:
Had shades of rad-feminism never entered into this discussion,
there would not have been a need to straighten that out.
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The only rad feminism (whatever that even means) was introduced by you. please stop.
 
NevermoreLenore said:
To the OP: Thank you for starting this interesting thread. If you are willing, I would love to see these types of discussions regularly. I appreciate you sharing the Hebrew and your insight.
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Thank you. I think its great to unpack, as they say, themes of the Old Testament in this way. The question, what did this mean for the ancients who knew these texts in their time and culture,

You raise a good question about the word eager. we should look at that word and context in its original Hebrew setting.

Endtimes, which verse specifically are you quoting with the word ‘eager’
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
You raise a good question about the word eager. we should look at that word and context in its original Hebrew setting.
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Yes, please! I’m interested on your take on this and it’s implications for me as a wife today. My husband is the best and I’m always interested in being a better wife to him.
 
EndTimes said:
Wives in Current Times? That’s unspecific, yes?
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I’m not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse and trolling me or if you truly do not understand my statement. Either way, I’m not engaging anymore but I would be interested in hearing from the OP and others on this manner.
 
OurLadyofSorrows said:
The only rad feminism (whatever that even means) was introduced by you.
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I’m pleased that you’re acknowledging that you know not what that well-known term means…
Ergo… You’re not really qualified to try to tell anyone what they may or may not post here…
Others besides me - recognize it - and know its fingerprints - and shown it via their agreements
 
I think the punishments are connected to the “duties” God had assigned to each. (Eg. Adam charged to till the ground, his punishment will involve continuing to carry out that task.)

Eve’s role In fulfilling the charge to be fruitful and multiply, was to bear the children. Thus her punishment of painful childbirth.
Yet, she will still desire her husband even knowing it can bring about pregnancy and the pains of childbirth.
Or, another thought - desire for a child will make her desire a husband — or to want conjugal relations with her husband.

As for the punishment “he shall rule over you” - I think that was because she tried to have her will “rule” Adam’s decision. She was created to be a “helpmate” to Adam, someone to help him fulfill his God given responsibilities. Instead she succeeded in doing the opposite.

Just a couple thoughts.
 
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EndTimes said:
Ergo… You’re not really qualified to try to tell anyone what they may or may not post here…
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Why are you attempting repeatedly to put a discussion on the ancients and Biblical text into a ‘rad feminist’ textual discourse. How many times must I say this thread is not about modern concepts and norms and issues.

Put your feminist discourse back in its box and stop derailing a thread by attacking others.
EndTimes said:
Others besides me - recognize it - and know its f ingerprints - and shown it via their agreements
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Fingerprints of rad feminist discourse within Hebrew Biblical Text at least 4000 BCE. I dont think so. But hey now you have said this is what the author of Genesis had in mind well time to prove it.
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
God drove the man out of the Garden of Eden.
There is no mention of the woman being driven out also.
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There was no need.
It’s clear Eve, Adam’s helper and the first to disobey God - remained with Adam after the Fall.
Eden was closed to Adam and Eve because of their Disobediences - and then they had children; etc.
 
"OurLadyofSorrows:
וַיֹּאמֶר׀ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים הֵן הָֽאָדָם הָיָה כְּאַחַד מִמֶּנּוּ לָדַעַת טוֹב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּה׀ פֶּן־יִשְׁלַח יָדוֹ וְלָקַח גַּם מֵעֵץ הַֽחַיִּים וְאָכַל וָחַי לְעֹלָֽם׃ וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֵהוּ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים מִגַּן־עֵ֑דֶן לַֽעֲבֹד…
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The Original Script/Language in Genesis is no longer with us…

And What we have is fine - and is fully supported by the entire Bible…

[Genesis 3:20]

Adam named his wife Eve , because she would become the mother of all the living.
 
EndTimes said:
The Original Script/Language in Genesis is no longer with us…
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Of course it is. Biblical Hebrew, Paleo Script, Semitic languages. We can even read Egyptian scrolls, tomb and temple readings in Hieroglyphics, and scrolls and seals in many ancient languages.

Why would you believe that the ancient languages are no longer with us?

The Original script is not a script, it is oral tradition. Originally everything was handed on by oral tradition, story telling, and at different stages it was written. This is why Chapter 2 and Chapter 1 of Genesis are quite different in their reading of Creation. They were written at different times.

I hope you went to that link and did a little reading on it, that was the purpose of putting the link in the room.
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
Why would you believe that the ancient languages are no longer with us?
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No way… Not all of the over 7,000+ languages are still with us…
It’s the original ManuScript of Genesis - which is no longer with us…
vive la difference! … 🙂

This we know:

But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
So the LordGod caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.
Then the LordGod made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
 
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EndTimes said:
No way… Not all of the over 7,000+ languages are still with us…
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I really do not know how to respond.

Which Language type are you referring to with your 7K figure? Semitic language ?
Scholars have an excellent working knowledge of the Semitic languages the ancient peoples living in Biblical times used, and the evolution of these languages.

We know Biblical Hebrew, Egyptian, Babylonian, Akkadian, Paleo and other scripts.

When we read a word in the Old Testament in Biblical Hebrew we read its various forms and potential ways it can be translated.

The word you are using ‘rib’ has several meanings, one being side. The word you use for helper , what type of helper do you think that is?
That word has several translations also.

Tell me what form ‘helper’ takes here.

The original manuscript for Genesis was Oral.
People were telling before they were writing. Genesis 2 is much older then Genesis 1. They were written down at different times.
I am not sure what your argument is that the very first stone or papyrus is not with us. Do you think it would be different? Do you think it would be in English or Latin or Greek?
To find the stones that Moses wrote the 10 commandments on would be great sure, but we have those commandments and the other commandments that make up Torah. We know them from oral and later written tradition.

Do you think finding the many books, verses and chapters of the Old Testament would somehow change things? If so why and how?
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
Which Language type are you referring to with your 7K figure? Semitic language ?
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None of them per se…

Again … The original ManuScript of Genesis - does not exist…

The original BIBLE does not exist…

Not one language including Semitic GEEZ takes precedence over any other.

===

ADAM NAMED EVE

The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and care for it.

He told the man, ‘You may eat from every tree in the garden, but not from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for on the day that you eat from it, you will certainly die.’

Then the LORD God said,

‘It is not good for the man to be alone. I will provide a partner for him.’ 19So God formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of heaven. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Thus the man gave names to all cattle, to the birds of heaven, and to every wild animal; but for the man himself no partner had yet been found.

And so the LORD God put the man into a trance, and while he slept, he took

one of his ribs and closed the flesh over the place. The LORD God then built up the rib, which he had taken out of the man, into a woman. He brought her to the man,

and the man said:

‘Now this, at last -

bone from my bones,
flesh from my flesh! -
this shall be called woman EVE for from man was this taken.’
 
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EndTimes said:
Not one language including Semitic GEEZ takes precedence over any other.
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Semitic is not a language, might be an idea to think about my responses before shooting off

Geez

😂😎
 
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God announces the woman’s punishment without stating an act of sin.
No one is being punished for the act of eating.
God says to the serpent “because you have done this” after asking the woman " what is this that you have done?"
Almost seems like Eve wasn’t fully culpable. Maybe the serpent is culpable for the woman’s act of eating. Scandalized by the father of lies. Adam’s sin isn’t eating the fruit it’s listening to the voice of His wife. Listening to the voice of is biblical language for acceptance/ obedience to communication from another as if it were from God.

It seems Adam is fully to blame for his deed no one else. The Serpent seems fully to blame for his deed and the woman’s.

Don’t know if she is culpable or not.

Maybe that has something to do with only Adam mentioned as expelled.
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
Semitic is not a language
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Not so fast… 😃

Of course Today, “Semitic” refers to Sons of Shem Son of Noah
and which includes Arabs, Amharics, Sons of Eber (Hebrews) and much much more.

As with Aramaic and some other languages including variants of Hebrew, Ge’ez is part of the Afro-Asiatic Language Group from which Proto-Semitic and its Sub-Divisions of East and West Semitic languages came forth from.

Ethiopia and Eritrea are home to circa 20 distinct Semitic Languages

Some claim the Semitic language Ge’ez is the precursor of all Semitic languages!

It is also said that the The term “Semitic” was created by members of the Göttingen School of History, and specifically by August Ludwig von Schlözer[16] (1781)[17]. Johann Gottfried Eichhorn[18] (1787)[19] coined the name “Semitic” in the late 18th century to designate the languages closely related to Arabic, Aramaic, and Hebrew.[16] The choice of name was derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the genealogical accounts of the biblical Book of Genesis,[16] or more precisely from the Koine Greek rendering of the name, Σήμ (Sēm).
 
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