Discussion with a Baptist about Mary Dogmas

[Keith_Barrett]

John_Henry:

You should be prepared to answer for the verse in Hebrews that says that Jesus lives forever to intercede on our behalf (Hb. 7:25).

Let me just clarify my comments, otherwise this could devolve into an argument about semantics. There are in fact other passages in the Bible which concur with the Hebrews verse you mention (see Luke 23:34; John 17:20; Heb. 5:7 and 1 John 2:1; John 17:24).

In talking about Jesus as mediator, as opposed to intercessor, I wanted to indicate that, firstly, Mary cannot take the place of Jesus, which might be implied by my comment that Mary “is our greatest intercessor”. In effect, I am trying to make the proviso that she is the greatest intercessor, second only to Jesus.

Secondly, by calling Jesus mediator, as opposed to intercessor, I am trying to show that what he does for us is more than just intercede. Mediation is intercession and more. Through the mysteries of the Resurrection and the Holy Trinity, Jesus is both intercessor and saviour.

I have put this forward as my argument, hence all the "I"s, but I am pretty sure that this is the Church’s position as well.

 

[system]

quasimodo:

yer point?

The point is, people of other denomations always give us catholics the old “NO-ONE can come to the Father but through me” then the minister tells you to go directly to God

 

[Emmaus]

Mitch R:

Can anyone give scripture that would show that Mary (or a Saint for that matter) can actually hear us?

Try this article for several passages related to your question.

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?art_id=23526

 

[pnewton]

I am a former Baptist who converted several years ago. Marian doctrine was the last thing I understood. I never accepted the arguements behind a lot of the Marian doctrines until well after my entrance into the Church. What I did accept was the authority of the Church. Once I had accepted that, I accepted that the Church’s doctrine as an act of faith and obedience. While the basis for much of Mariology can be found in scripture, I was only able to understand it using the on-going teaching of the Church

 

[Yaegel]

Quote: Are you familiar with the example of the Queen Mother in the Old Testament, beginning with Bethsheba? The Queen was not the wife of the King (because at that time they had several wives), but was the Mother of the King. She was the intercessor for the poor, lost, lonely, etc. Mary carries on the tradition of being the Queen Mother.

Check out Jer 29.2,“This was after King Jeconiah and the queen mother, the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the craftsmen and the smiths had departed from Jerusalem”. Compare this verse to John 2.12, “After this he (Jesus) went down to Capernaum with his mother and his brethren and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days”. King Jeconiah, like Jesus, is a son of David ,Matt 1.11. I think these verses point to Mary’s role as queen in the Kingdom of God ,and what is the first thing Christ tells us to do? Seek first a personal relationship with your Lord? No. He says “But seek first the kingdom [of God] and His righteousness and all these things will be given you besides”. Matt 6.33. We all know who Jesus gave the keys of this kingdom to. Matt 16.19.
The role of the queen mother is intercession, 1 Kings 2.17,18," He said, ‘Please ask King Solomon , who will not refuse you, to give Abishag the Shumamite for my wife’. ‘Very well’, replied Bathsheba, ‘I will speak to the King for you’. Sounds like an Old testament version of the “Hail Mary” to me. Compare these verses to the intercession by Mary on behalf of the servers at the wedding at Cana, John 2.3,4. "When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to Him, 'They have no wine. [And] Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come’. Although Solomon said he would do his mother’s will, 1 Kings 2,20, he did not, 1 Kings 2,24. While Jesus seemd reluctant to do His mothers will, John 2.4. He did, John 2.5-11. This reminds me of the parable of the two sons in Matthew chapter 21. Who did his father’s will? The son who said he wouldn’t and did, or the one who said he would and didn’t?
Obviously, the son who did his mother’s will is greater than the son who didn’t do his mother’s will. Matt 12.42.
It’s important to know the verses that establish Mary as the ark of the new covenant. Most of us know the parallels between 2 Samuel and the Gospel according to Luke.
2 Samuel 6 Luke 1
V.2 > V.39
V.9 > V.43
V.10 > V.40
V.11 > V.56
V12 > V…47
V.15 > V.42
V.16 > V.41
Now read Joshua chapter 7 beginning at verse 6. Joshua and the elders prostrate themselves in front of the ark, which is a graven image, and pray to God. I think this points to Matthew 2.11 “and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankinscence, and myrrh.”
Joshua and the elders prostrate themselves in front of the ark and worship God. The Magi prostrate themselves in front of Mary, and worship Jesus. I think this is another allusion to Mary as the new ark, but more importantly it points to Jesus as God. Of course Mary always points to Jesus
Why did King David want to build a temple to the Lord? The reason was his concern for th ark. 2 Sam 7.2 "he said to Nathan the prophet, ‘Here I am living in a house of cedar, while the ark of God dwells in a tent’. When Solomon dedicated the temple, 1 Kings 8, the priests placed the ark in it’s sanctuary, verse 6. At the time of the Babylonian exile, the ark was lost, 2 Macc. 2. 5,6.
The temple was destroyed long ago, but it was rebuilt in three days. I think God Himself restored the ark to His temple when Jesus gave us His mother at the cross, John 19. 26,27. The Catholic Church is the temple of God, 1 Cor 3.16 and we as members of the Church are temples of God 1 Cor 6,19. All christians are temples of God by virtue of their baptism. As temples of God, We are all called to have a place for the ark, which is Mary.

 

[Mathetes007]

brimblue:

However, he always comes back with, “If Mary was so important to the salvation plan, why was it not explicitly mentioned in the Gospels?”

Some of the most central and common doctrines we have are not explicit in the Gospels. Not to over abuse this example, but nowhere in the Gospels is the Holy Spirit called “God.” As a matter of fact, there are only a few instances where it is implied in the New Testament. Most references will cite Acts 5:3, 4 and 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20 which both implicitly equate the Holy Spirit with God. The other passage is 1 Corinthians 3:17, 18 in which the Spirit is called “Lord.” The truth be told, the number of references you can provide for any given subject does not correlate with its importance. This being a prime example.

Does our salvation hinge on who we worship? The answer is yes (John 4:22-24; 1 John 5:20). The Trinity is central to Christianity. Indeed, the Trinity is the foundation of our religion. Sometimes the Scriptures are not explicit regarding all of the Christian truths. At times the Scriptures make us profess with our mouths and hearts what is there only in spirit but not letter (it is called faith).

Few words are stated in the Bible about Mary. But the Holy Spirit has packed those few verses with much meaning.

"Why are you asking me to pray for you all the time

At times, we think we know better than God of how savlation should work (the same old problems as in the Garden of Eden). But God the Spirit reveals all truth to those that have ear to hear Him (John 14:15, 26; 15:26; 1 John 5:7; Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 29). Being Author of the sacred Scriptures (2 Peter 1:20, 21), He commands us to pray for the saints (Ephesians 6:18) and for everyone else (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:28; Romans 15:30; 1 Timothy 2:1). Failing to pray for others is a sin since it is devoid of love for others (1 Samuel 12:23; Luke 18:11; 1 John 4:16-5:3). We are always to be in prayer for others (Colossians 4:12).

brimblue:

So I’m not really sure how to respond back to this properly and I am looking for advice. I’ve used all the intercessory prayer Biblical quotes in James (fervent prayer of a righteous person availth much), Rev. 5:8 (prayer of the saints offered up), St. Paul telling us that it is good and holy to pray for each other, etc. I’m just looking for another approach with him.

You should tell him that when God reveals a truth we must adhere to it. It is not an option. If God has commanded that we pray for one another always, then it is truly pleasing to Him. God put this mystical union of Christians in place, so we should be confident that it is necessary and is not optional to His plan of salvation.

It is so necessary that we see Him commanding explicitly for intercessory prayer through a holy one (Job 42:8-10). This command from God is based on the effectiveness of the prayers of the righteous as you noted (Proverbs 15:29; James 5:16; 1 Peter 3:12 [Psalm 34:15]).

If your friend states that praying for someone and praying to someone is a different story, ask him the following. We know that the elders in heaven carry bowls with the prayers of the saints (Revelation 5:8). The question would be how did they get them? The passage would suggest that they received them through the mystical union we have with them. They then present them at the altar of the Almighty One. Why else would God allow prayers that are strictly for Him to be held by a creature?

Our prayers are like incense before God (Psalm 141:2). It appears that even angels have a hand in offering our prayers (Revelation 8:3, 4; Tobit 12:12).

 

[john654]

Brimblue,

However, he always comes back with, “If Mary was so important to the salvation plan, why was it not explicitly mentioned in the Gospels?”

“EXPLICITYY MENTIONED”

Tell him to go look up “The Trinity!”

Obedience,
John

 

[Schabel]

john654:

Brimblue,

“EXPLICITYY MENTIONED”

Tell him to go look up “The Trinity!”

… or the list of canonical books.

 

[Pax]

brimblue:

My good friend at work is Baptist and every so often we get into discussions about Catholic and Baptist differences. Recently, we have be talking about the Catholic Church’s dogmas on Mary. I am farely versed in the defense of these dogmas (Immaculate Conception, Ever-Virgin, Assumption, etc) with Biblical verses, the comparison of Mary and the Ark of the Convenent, what it means for something to be consecrated, etc. However, he always comes back with, “If Mary was so important to the salvation plan, why was it not explicitly mentioned in the Gospels?” He is also really uncomfortable about people having too much devotion to Mary. He is careful not to generalize all Catholics, but he states that it doesn’t make sense for anyone to prayer to someone (or ask them to pray for you) so often that they spend more time praying to Mary than to God. He stated if he were to come to me everyday for an hour and ask me to pray for him, it would not be proper for him to do that. He thinks that I should say, “Why are you asking me to pray for you all the time, ask God directly” That’s his basic stance. So I’m not really sure how to respond back to this properly and I am looking for advice. I’ve used all the intercessory prayer Biblical quotes in James (fervent prayer of a righteous person availth much), Rev. 5:8 (prayer of the saints offered up), St. Paul telling us that it is good and holy to pray for each other, etc. I’m just looking for another approach with him. Thank you.

Check out Patrick Madrid’s book Any Friend of Jesus is a Friend of Mine. What we are talking about is a thorough understanding of the communion of saints. Christianity should be understood in terms of a “family.” That’s why we are called “adopted sons and daughters” and “brothers and sisters in Christ.” These are not just mere labels. God’s grace goes out in power and it is just as described in 1 John 3:1, 1. “SEE WHAT love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.” Our family of believers is made complete through Jesus. And we cry out “Abba” Father. It is also rounded out by his giving us His mother. Study the communion of Saints and Mary’s role as mother. Then explain it to your friend.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

The Latin one is here. I don’t see why you need it somewhere else. If you’re looking for a .pdf, here it is, with adaptations for the diocese of the United States of America.

The reason I asked is that the Bishop’s website does not load on this computer. And I needed to have reference to it in the near future. Guess I got to translate it a bit. Thanks.85ochttdbu=0

 

[TimothyH]

In order to properly understand Mary’s relationship to us in God’s plan for our salvation, we have to understand that Jesus is a King, and that Mary is His Queen.

All Christians need to understand that Jesus is a King. God revealed Jesus as a King. That Jesus is a King is revealed truth. The whole theme of Matthew’s Gospel is the Kingdom of Jesus - the announcement of the kingdom, descriptions of the kingdom, the establishment of the kingdom, the tearing down of the old kingdom. Jesus spends all of Chapter 13 of Matthews Gospel giving parables about what his kingdom will be like.

When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, “This is truly the Prophet, 9 the one who is to come into the world.” Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:14-15)

Jesus is King of kings. That Jesus is a king is undeniable.

And we must always remember that the Old Testament is the story of God preparing his people to accept their Messiah, to accept their King. And when we look at the Kings of the Old Testament, we find a curious fact about who they appointed to be their queens.

***Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right *(1 Kings 2:19)

Bathsheba was King David’s wife but was the Mother of King Solomon. No one in the kingdom was higher than the king, yet Solomon pays homage to his mother and seats her in a throne on his right. This is because Bathsheba is not only Solomon’s mother but she is also the queen.

It makes sense that kings would appoint their mother’s as queen. Wives were often exchanged as part of a military alliance. Each king would give a daughter or a niece to the king with which he was making a military alliance. This was a way for a king to make sure that he had a person in intimate contact with the king with whom he had made an aliiance, someone in his allies inner court. But for a king to make this wife into a queen was to elevate a blood relative of a potential rival to a place of great authority in his kingdom, and this was too great a risk. Kings therefor, did not appoint their wives to be queen but appointed their mother’s to the position of queen instead. That is why we see Solomon bring a throne for and pay homage to his mother Bathsheba. Bathsheba, Solomon’s Mother, is also Solomon’s Queen.

The Hebrew word for queen-mother or literally “Grand lady” is Gebirah. We see references to the Gebirah elswhere in the Old Testament.

This was after King Jeconiah and the queen mother, the court officials, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the artisans and smiths had left Jerusalem. (Jerimiah 29:2)

In fact, the various kings throught he centuries are listed in the Books of Kings and the Books of Chronicals, and with every king, the king’s mother is also listed.

*In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, son of Nebat, Abijam became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah, daughter of Abishalom. (1 Kings 15:1-2)

In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, Abijah became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother was named Micaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. (2 Chronicals 13:1-2)

Uzziah was sixteen years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jecoliah, from Jerusalem. (2 Chronicals 26:3)*

This is just a very small sample. God is telling us who the mother of the king was because the mother of the king was a queen. And in the Old Testament, the queen was who you went to if you wanted to get a favor from the King.

He said, “Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite to be my wife.” Bathsheba replied, “Very well, I will speak to the king for you. (1 Kings 2:17-18)

If you wanted something from the King, you typically went through the Queen. The magesty of the king cannot be overemphisized. Very few people approached the king directly. To walk into the king’s presence unannounce meant instant death, even for the king’s wives. And we know Jesus is the King. Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords. And Mary, his mother, is Jesus Queen.

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1)

We can argue who the woman in Revelation 12 is but the fact that she wears a crown is clear. Only kings and queens wear crowns. The woman is clearly a queen. The woman is described as giving birth to a male child who rules the nations, and this description is consistent with a king and his mother the queen. The fact that the woman’s son in Revelation 12 is “Caught up to God and his throne” leads most Christians to believe that the child is Jesus. The mother can only be Mary, and Mary is Queen.

The entire history of Old Testament kings and their appointed “Gebirah” bear’s witness to Jesus’ appointment of his own mother as Queen. This is simply how God revealed Jesus and his mother to mankind. The Jews who knew Jesus clearly understood this because they were used to being ruled by a King and his Gebirah. And so just as Jesus is our King, so Mary is our Queen.

That is our relationship to Mary, a Queen who rules, but who goes to her son the King on behalf of the needs of her subjects whom she loves.

Mary is the Gebirah, just like the mother’s of the king in the Old Testament.

-Tim-