Discussion with a JW

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Waynec

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In a discussion with a JW I am told that God knows all things but chooses not to remember some things.

For what reason would God choose not to remember some things?

JW: If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin would He have created them? He made them to live forever.

ME: Adam and Eve were given a choice to sin or not and they chose to sin and I beleive that God knew this and from the beginning He had a plan for salvation.

ME: God is omniscient and knows all things.

JW: If God remembers all things then he would be micromanaging our lives.

ME: God is out of time as we know it, therefore he knows what will happen in our lives from beginning to end but that does not mean that He is micro managing them. We still have choices and He sees those choices but does not influence them.

JW: Once God knows something it will happen.

ME: God knows that I will physically die. Yet here I sit.

Am I on the right track here? Can some one here help me put what Christians believe in words that the JW can understand? Or are they right? Help!!

Thanks
 
Waynec said:
Can some one here help me put what Christians believe in words that the JW can understand? Or are they right? Help!!
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I have tried and tried to talk to them and they always pull something like this out of their pocket. I don’t know if they would buy the “outside of time” argument. They believe that God is in time, but can travel to different times. And they don’t believe God is pure spirit. This is my understanding at least. Remember you are dealing with a man made religion.

Maybe I am getting jaded but arguing with them to me is like putting a dvd in and arguing with the screen.
 
ajcstr said:
I have tried and tried to talk to them and they always pull something like this out of their pocket. I don’t know if they would buy the “outside of time” argument. They believe that God is in time, but can travel to different times. And they don’t believe God is pure spirit. This is my understanding at least. Remember you are dealing with a man made religion.

Maybe I am getting jaded but arguing with them to me is like putting a dvd in and arguing with the screen.
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I have never heard that they don’t beleive that God is pure spirit. If not pure spirit then what?

I feel like I am banging my head against a wall. And they are so serious when they say such silly things. At least to me they seem silly with no theological depth.

The cannot prove from the bible that God chooses not to remember certain things no matter how hard they try. I mentioned this to my JW friend and it didn’t seem to matter to her. That surprised me because they are so literal and do not want to hear any thing the Church Fathers have to say because they are not “inspired”. Curious.
 
If God has such a selective memory, how will He be able to preside at our judgement? :confused:
 
Waynec said:
In a discussion with a JW I am told that God knows all things but chooses not to remember some things.

For what reason would God choose not to remember some things?

JW: If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin would He have created them? He made them to live forever.

ME: Adam and Eve were given a choice to sin or not and they chose to sin and I beleive that God knew this and from the beginning He had a plan for salvation.

ME: God is omniscient and knows all things.

JW: If God remembers all things then he would be micromanaging our lives.

ME: God is out of time as we know it, therefore he knows what will happen in our lives from beginning to end but that does not mean that He is micro managing them. We still have choices and He sees those choices but does not influence them.

JW: Once God knows something it will happen.

ME: God knows that I will physically die. Yet here I sit.

Am I on the right track here? Can some one here help me put what Christians believe in words that the JW can understand? Or are they right? Help!!

Thanks
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I think there is confusion here between God knowing something and willing something.

God simply knowing something will happen doesn’t mean he wills it nor will it automatically happen because he knows it
 
angell1 said:
I think there is confusion here between God knowing something and willing something.

God simply knowing something will happen doesn’t mean he wills it nor will it automatically happen because he knows it
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Agreed… Prove it.😃
Maybe the op could ask the same of the JW`s
 
Waynec said:
I have never heard that they don’t beleive that God is pure spirit. If not pure spirit then what?
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Yes, you are correct, I thought they believed that God had a physical form also, but after some research, I don’t think that’s the case. Thank you for the correction.
 
fbl9 said:
Agreed… Prove it.😃
Maybe the op could ask the same of the JW`s
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She says that once God knows something it happens so he chooses to not know it.

She can’t prove it from scripture. She was frantically looking through scripture for a proof text.

They have a knack for talking in circles so I don’t think there is much more she can contribute.
 
ajcstr said:
Yes, you are correct, I thought they believed that God had a physical form also, but after some research, I don’t think that’s the case. Thank you for the correction.
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You are welcome. I thought you might have come across something that I didn’t.
 
Waynec said:
I have never heard that they don’t beleive that God is pure spirit. If not pure spirit then what?

I feel like I am banging my head against a wall. And they are so serious when they say such silly things. At least to me they seem silly with no theological depth.

The cannot prove from the bible that God chooses not to remember certain things no matter how hard they try. I mentioned this to my JW friend and it didn’t seem to matter to her. That surprised me because they are so literal and do not want to hear any thing the Church Fathers have to say because they are not “inspired”. Curious.
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I would agree with you. If you are going to make the claim that God knowing something means that he causes it to happen, then they should provide evidence of it, otherwise, it’s simply a meaningless claim.

Shouldn’t be surprised that you feel like you’re banging your head against a wall. Once you’re that deep into Jehovah’s Witnesses, you almost put on blinders to anything else.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I would agree with you. If you are going to make the claim that God knowing something means that he causes it to happen, then they should provide evidence of it, otherwise, it’s simply a meaningless claim.

Shouldn’t be surprised that you feel like you’re banging your head against a wall. Once you’re that deep into Jehovah’s Witnesses, you almost put on blinders to anything else.
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Blinders, that is a good way to put it. She really doesn’t hear what I say. It is a shame because she once was Catholic.

Yes, she couldn’t find any thing in the bible to support what she is saying but she will blindly follow the Watchtower, without questioning them. To her they are always right no matter how many times they change their beliefs. More’s the pity.
 
Waynec said:
Blinders, that is a good way to put it. She really doesn’t hear what I say. It is a shame because she once was Catholic.

Yes, she couldn’t find any thing in the bible to support what she is saying but she will blindly follow the Watchtower, without questioning them. To her they are always right no matter how many times they change their beliefs. More’s the pity.
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Well when you’re an ex-anything, you end up probably building up an even bigger bias towards that group, because admitting that you were wrong about leaving them becomes personally embarrassing or humbling. That can go for anyone.

Someone in Jehovah’s Witnesses will always have a special defensive barrier raised up. Their leaders are not stupid, they knew to organize the religion in a way to make it difficult to pry away their members. It can only done slowly, patiently, gently. Ultimately, you can only plant a seed, but your friend will have to accept the truth on her own.

Also, remember that there are lots of consequences for them when they leave the group. If she has any friends in the group, she will lose them most likely because they shun anyone who apostasizes from that faith.
 
It might be helpful to mention that time is a creation - a creature as Paul puts it:

Romans 8:38-39
“For I am certain the neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor powers, neither height nor depth nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God that comes to us in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (New American Bible)

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(New World Translation)

You may have a problem due to their translation adding “things”, but perhaps some Greek scholars out there can let us know which translation is more accurate.

God does not depend on time for His existence. It is a mystery that we cannot know in our time-locked state of existence. I prefer to think of it as God existing in the “eternal now”, but that’s not defined.

God Bless.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Well when you’re an ex-anything, you end up probably building up an even bigger bias towards that group, because admitting that you were wrong about leaving them becomes personally embarrassing or humbling. That can go for anyone.

Someone in Jehovah’s Witnesses will always have a special defensive barrier raised up. Their leaders are not stupid, they knew to organize the religion in a way to make it difficult to pry away their members. It can only done slowly, patiently, gently. Ultimately, you can only plant a seed, but your friend will have to accept the truth on her own.

Also, remember that there are lots of consequences for them when they leave the group. If she has any friends in the group, she will lose them most likely because they shun anyone who apostasizes from that faith.
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Fortunately for her she is the only witness in her family. Her husband and daughter don’t practice any thing. She will lose her friends but not her family. Some of them lose their family for the truth.
 
jimmytoes said:
It might be helpful to mention that time is a creation - a creature as Paul puts it:

Romans 8:38-39
“For I am certain the neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor powers, neither height nor depth nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God that comes to us in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (New American Bible)

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(New World Translation)

You may have a problem due to their translation adding “things”, but perhaps some Greek scholars out there can let us know which translation is more accurate.

God does not depend on time for His existence. It is a mystery that we cannot know in our time-locked state of existence. I prefer to think of it as God existing in the “eternal now”, but that’s not defined.

God Bless.
Click to expand...
How many times have I read this but never thought of time as a created thing, and yet it seems so obvious. Thanks for this. I checked the Blue Letter Bible and the KJ bible seems to be translated pretty much the same as the 2 mentioned.
 
Waynec said:
Fortunately for her she is the only witness in her family. Her husband and daughter don’t practice any thing. She will lose her friends but not her family. Some of them lose their family for the truth.
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She’s very lucky, then.

May God guide her to the truth.
 
Waynec said:
You are welcome. I thought you might have come across something that I didn’t.
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At one time they claimed to have found the star system where God resides. So based on that I was thinking they thought there was a physical aspect to God.

‘ … Alcyone, the central one of the renowned Pleiadic stars … Alcyone, then, as far as science has been able to perceive, would seem to be ‘the midnight throne’ in which the whole system of gravitation has its seat, and from which the Almighty governs his universe … ’ (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. III, 1891, p. 327).
 
ajcstr said:
At one time they claimed to have found the star system where God resides. So based on that I was thinking they thought there was a physical aspect to God.

‘ … Alcyone, the central one of the renowned Pleiadic stars … Alcyone, then, as far as science has been able to perceive, would seem to be ‘the midnight throne’ in which the whole system of gravitation has its seat, and from which the Almighty governs his universe … ’ (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. III, 1891, p. 327).
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I don’t have access to those books. Are they on the net?
 
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