Discussion with a JW

[signit]

I don’t have access to those books. Are they on the net?

This website has a lot of “Pastor” Russell’s works, including the six main volumes of Studies in the Scriptures.

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

The seventh volume was completed posthumously and does not seem to be included.

I could not tell quickly if these are the original versions or the version(s) that were revised after 1914 to say that the end would come after 1914 instead of before.

The JW organization no longer distributes Russell’s works, but the last I knew at least one offshoot group still sold them.

Edit: The quote about Alcyone is in Volume 3, in the chapter beginning on page 309 (“C309,”) on page 327 (“C327”).

 

[Waynec]

This website has a lot of “Pastor” Russell’s works, including the six main volumes of Studies in the Scriptures.

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

The seventh volume was completed posthumously and does not seem to be included.

I could not tell quickly if these are the original versions or the version(s) that were revised after 1914 to say that the end would come after 1914 instead of before.

The JW organization no longer distributes Russell’s works, but the last I knew at least one offshoot group still sold them.

Edit: The quote about Alcyone is in Volume 3, in the chapter beginning on page 309 (“C309,”) on page 327 (“C327”).

Thanks. I appreciate this.

 

[ajcstr]

I don’t have access to those books. Are they on the net?

I pulled that info from this site (and I had heard this before):

answerjw.com/rescue/strange.htm

Also, I listened to a tape series I have by a former JW again regarding to JW belief about God and Russell at one time in the late 1800’s did teach that God had a physical body. Something like where there is an intellect, there is a mind and where there is a mind there is a brain and where there is a brain there is a body.

She also mentioned that words like “body” and “spirit” may have a different meaning to them because Russell used phrases like “spirit body” which would be an oxymoron to non-JW.

I have heard that many of the things Russell taught would have gotten him kicked out of the current organization and that Watchtower literature prior to the 1930’s is not available to the current members. Don’t know if this is true or not today as there are so many ways to get this info online now.

 

[ajcstr]

I got a lot out of this series so I figured I may as well plug it. Its my a former JW. I got the mp3 version which is a little cheaper:

saintjoe.com/products/inside-the-watchtower-core-beliefs-of-the-jehovah-s-witnesses-exposed

Also I read a good book by Alan Garcia titles “Can I get a witness?” Mr Garcia also has a presence on Youtube.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

In a discussion with a JW I am told that God knows all things but chooses not to remember some things.

For what reason would God choose not to remember some things?

JW: If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin would He have created them? He made them to live forever.

ME: Adam and Eve were given a choice to sin or not and they chose to sin and I beleive that God knew this and from the beginning He had a plan for salvation.

ME: God is omniscient and knows all things.

JW: If God remembers all things then he would be micromanaging our lives.

ME: God is out of time as we know it, therefore he knows what will happen in our lives from beginning to end but that does not mean that He is micro managing them. We still have choices and He sees those choices but does not influence them.

JW: Once God knows something it will happen.

ME: God knows that I will physically die. Yet here I sit.

Am I on the right track here? Can some one here help me put what Christians believe in words that the JW can understand? Or are they right? Help!!

Thanks

It looks like this has more to do with Open Theism than anything else. Take a look through this biblicaltraining.org/library/case-against-open-theism/essentials-philosophy-christian-thought/ron-nash
and lift as much as you think will be useful. Let us know what looks good to you?

 

[ajcstr]

I could not tell quickly if these are the original versions or the version(s) that were revised after 1914 to say that the end would come after 1914 instead of before.

So they went back at some point and changed the literature?

 

[Waynec]

It looks like this has more to do with Open Theism than anything else. Take a look through this biblicaltraining.org/library/case-against-open-theism/essentials-philosophy-christian-thought/ron-nash
and lift as much as you think will be useful. Let us know what looks good to you?

This is exactly what we were talking about. I did read it but these old eyes find it hard to read so much from the net so I printed it out for a better more serious read. This is very good. I made a copy for my friend and I hope she will read it. I will see here next Friday.
Thanks

 

[Waynec]

So they went back at some point and changed the literature?

They are always changing their literature. That is why they do not encourage their people to read the older stuff. You would think they would want them to understand how their beliefs developed. You know like we would be encouraged to read the Church Fathers they are not encouraged to read the writings from their founding fathers.

I wonder how many would stay if they really understood their history and all the changes that were and are being made.

 

[signit]

So they went back at some point and changed the literature?

Yes, they did.

Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures (Thy Kingdom Come), page 228 (C228):

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

This is the 1915 version which states:“the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon after 1914” and “Just how long after 1914 . . . .”

From Zion’s Watch Tower, Mar. 1, 1915, p.66, where the changes are mentioned:

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

We call attention to a few slight changes which have been made in four pages of Vol. II. and six pages of Vol. III., “STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES.” These are all trivial and do not alter the real sense and lesson, but conform to the facts as we have them today. The pages containing these corrections are as follows:

. . .

Vol. III., page 228, line 11, “some time before 1914,” reads “very soon
after 1914.” Vol. III., page 228, line 15, “just how long before,” reads “just how long
after.” . . .

 

[ajcstr]

They are always changing their literature. That is why they do not encourage their people to read the older stuff. You would think they would want them to understand how their beliefs developed. You know like we would be encouraged to read the Church Fathers they are not encouraged to read the writings from their founding fathers.

I wonder how many would stay if they really understood their history and all the changes that were and are being made.

Well, the funny thing is didn’t WW 1 pretty much end the monarchies or am I oversimplifying?

 

[Waynec]

Yes, they did.

Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures (Thy Kingdom Come), page 228 (C228):

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

This is the 1915 version which states:“the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon after 1914” and “Just how long after 1914 . . . .”

From Zion’s Watch Tower, Mar. 1, 1915, p.66, where the changes are mentioned:

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

Just recently they edited this paragraph from their Insights vol 1 bottom of page 918. The topic is “This Generation” of Christ’s Prophecies.

the paragraph reads…“the people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914 have experienced these many terrifying events concurrently and in concentrated measures-international wars, great earth-quakes, terrible pestilences, wide spread famine, persecution of Christians, and other conditions that Jesus outlined in Matthew chapter 24, and Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21.”

This is probably no big deal of an edit. I guess there are not that many people alive today that were born in 1914. Anyway, people have been living through these things since the beginning of time.

My:twocents:

 

[ajcstr]

They are always changing their literature. That is why they do not encourage their people to read the older stuff. You would think they would want them to understand how their beliefs developed. You know like we would be encouraged to read the Church Fathers they are not encouraged to read the writings from their founding fathers.

I wonder how many would stay if they really understood their history and all the changes that were and are being made.

I understand they are changing all the time but what I mean is, if there was something published in 1912, would they actually go back and change THAT publication in their archives or would it just not be available any more. I always understood it to be the latter.

 

[signit]

I understand they are changing all the time but what I mean is, if there was something published in 1912, would they actually go back and change THAT publication in their archives or would it just not be available any more. I always understood it to be the latter.

Right.

The JWs today simply retire the older publications.

The 1966 book that suggested that the end would come in 1975 (some would say “predicted”) went out of distribution soon after.

They have a lot of books and booklets available on their website in electronic version but they’re all fairly modern ones. I’d assume the older style books are not available through mail order either.

The official JW website does not have nor sell the writings of “Pastor” Russell or “Judge” Rutherford. There is an archive site set up by a believing JW, which I mentioned in another thread, which has some older publications. There’s also the site mentioned earlier with Russell’s works, and there is at least one offshoot group that sells Russell’s six-volume series in hardback.

 

[ajcstr]

The official JW website does not have nor sell the writings of “Pastor” Russell or “Judge” Rutherford. There is an archive site set up by a believing JW, which I mentioned in another thread, which has some older publications. There’s also the site mentioned earlier with Russell’s works, and there is at least one offshoot group that sells Russell’s six-volume series in hardback.

I don’t know that that link was JW, it may be the group that stayed with Russell’s teaching and never came under the umbrella of JW. Don’t know if they are called “Russellites” or “Bible Students” but there was a group that did not follow Rutherford when he took over (and changed most of the beliefs). I was looking through some of the 1914 Watchtowers and one of them advised getting Christmas orders for literature in early.

 

[signit]

Don’t know if they are called “Russellites” or “Bible Students” but there was a group that did not follow Rutherford when he took over (and changed most of the beliefs). I was looking through some of the 1914 Watchtowers and one of them advised getting Christmas orders for literature in early.

One such group is the Dawn Bible Students Association:

dawnbible.com/content.htm

They share some beliefs with the JW (Trinity, hell, etc.) but do not go house to house. They used to conduct their affairs through mail order before the Internet. They still sell Russell’s six-volume series in hardback.

Other “Bible Students” organizations split from the JWs at about the same time.

 

[ShanPO]

Yes, they did.

Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures (Thy Kingdom Come), page 228 (C228):

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

This is the 1915 version which states:“the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon after 1914” and “Just how long after 1914 . . . .”

From Zion’s Watch Tower, Mar. 1, 1915, p.66, where the changes are mentioned:

ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

How is saying “some time before” and “very soon after” not making a HUGE change? I’d like to know how they justified this to their congregation.

 

[Mercy365]

One such group is the Dawn Bible Students Association:

dawnbible.com/content.htm

***They share some beliefs with the JW (Trinity, hell, etc.) ***but do not go house to house. They used to conduct their affairs through mail order before the Internet. They still sell Russell’s six-volume series in hardback.

Other “Bible Students” organizations split from the JWs at about the same time.

I am not familiar with the Dawn Bible Students Assoc. Did you mean to say they Do Not share some beliefs with the JWs?

JWs absolutely DO NOT believe in the Trinity or Hell.
I can tell you this because of past experiences with a few JWs. :whacky:

.

 

[signit]

I am not familiar with the Dawn Bible Students Assoc. Did you mean to say they Do Not share some beliefs with the JWs?

JWs absolutely DO NOT believe in the Trinity or Hell.
I can tell you this because of past experiences with a few JWs. :whacky:

.

They agree with the JWs on the major beliefs (Trinity, soul, hell). That’s what I meant to say.

They don’t go house to house and the JWs consider them “apostates.”

 

[Mercy365]

They agree with the JWs on the major beliefs (Trinity, soul, hell). That’s what I meant to say.

They don’t go house to house and the JWs consider them “apostates.”

Oh, okay! Thanks for the clarification!

:tiphat:

.

 

[Porknpie]

You are welcome. I thought you might have come across something that I didn’t.

Here’s a couple of verses that I like to share with JW’s that counter their belief that Christ died on a vertical stake, with one nail through his hands, and not on a cross. To do this, his his hands would have been above his head yet Mt 27:37 states:

They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”

And John 20:25 states that Christ’s hands were pierced by nails, not a singular nail through both hands.

So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side,+ I will never believe it.”*

Both verses above are using the NWT. They have yet to change the text in these verses…