Discussion with a JW

[Mercy365]

Here’s a couple of verses that I like to share with JW’s that counter their belief that Christ died on a vertical stake, with one nail through his hands, and not on a cross. To do this, his his hands would have been above his head yet Mt 27:37 states:

They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”

And John 20:25 states that Christ’s hands were pierced by nails, not a singular nail through both hands.

So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side,+ I will never believe it.”*

Both verses above are using the NWT. They have yet to change the text in these verses…

Excellent examples. Thanks!

.

 

[Waynec]

Here’s a couple of verses that I like to share with JW’s that counter their belief that Christ died on a vertical stake, with one nail through his hands, and not on a cross. To do this, his his hands would have been above his head yet Mt 27:37 states:

They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”

And John 20:25 states that Christ’s hands were pierced by nails, not a singular nail through both hands.

So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side,+ I will never believe it.”*

Both verses above are using the NWT. They have yet to change the text in these verses…

I tried this. I was told that there was room for the sign and His hands. And there would be a hole in each hand/wrist with His hands over his head. One nail pinning the 2 hands/wrists together.

They are very frustrating to talk to.

 

[Porknpie]

I tried this. I was told that there was room for the sign and His hands. And there would be a hole in each hand/wrist with His hands over his head. One nail pinning the 2 hands/wrists together.

They are very frustrating to talk to.

I guess at that point you ask if they have evidence that Romans executed people in this manner.

And… note that his belief contradicts how his Church has depicted Christ being nailed to a stake.

 

[Waynec]

I guess at that point you ask if they have evidence that Romans executed people in this manner.

And… note that his belief contradicts how his Church has depicted Christ being nailed to a stake.

Thanks for the link

 

[ajcstr]

And of course from the NWT MT 16:24 reads:

“Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me.”

 

[TrueWitness]

I have never heard that they don’t beleive that God is pure spirit. If not pure spirit then what?

I feel like I am banging my head against a wall. And they are so serious when they say such silly things. At least to me they seem silly with no theological depth.

The cannot prove from the bible that God chooses not to remember certain things no matter how hard they try. I mentioned this to my JW friend and it didn’t seem to matter to her. That surprised me because they are so literal and do not want to hear any thing the Church Fathers have to say because they are not “inspired”. Curious.

Good day everyone.
I hope you dont mind me joining the discussion.

You made a interesting claim which I’ll quote - “The cannot prove from the bible that God chooses not to remember certain things no matter how hard they try.”

Actually this can be proven from the Bible. I will try to help you understand this viewpoint they have using the Bible. Lets look at it…

The Scriptures say: “God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases.” (Psalm 115:3) Its important to understand that God does what he deems necessary to do, and not everything he is capable of doing. That applies also to what he decides to foresee.

Now here is an example I would like you to ponder on… After wickedness became prevalent in the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, God told the Abraham: “I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” (Genesis 18:20, 21)
So here we see that for a time, God chose not to know the extent of the wickedness in those cities. Similarly then, God can choose not to foreknow everything. I hope this helps to understand their viewpoint better and that it is alinged with scripture.

Otherwise a question which would arise is - Why did God tell Abraham “I can get to know it” and not “I already know it”?

 

[TrueWitness]

Here’s a couple of verses that I like to share with JW’s that counter their belief that Christ died on a vertical stake, with one nail through his hands, and not on a cross. To do this, his his hands would have been above his head yet Mt 27:37 states:

They also posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”

And John 20:25 states that Christ’s hands were pierced by nails, not a singular nail through both hands.

So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side,+ I will never believe it.”*

Both verses above are using the NWT. They have yet to change the text in these verses…

With this… Some have tried to use the plural “nails” in John 20:25 as evidence that Jesus was hung on a cross. Yet to do this they must completely ignore all logical alternatives and more importantly they must ignore the explicit statements of Scripture.

First, the Bible explicitly states that Jesus was hung on a STAUROS or XYLON. According to Greek dictionaries these words denote a stake or pole. So, using the plural “nails” to claim that Jesus was hung on a cross would be to contradict the explicit teaching of the bible.

Also, they are not dogmatic about how many nails were used in the arms. As no one really knows, it could of been 4 it could of been more, the scriptures does not make this clear. Claiming that two nails in the arms MUST mean crucifixion on a cross is to illogically force our favored interpretation while ignoring the evidence for other conclusions.

I have always liked sharing this verses with people.
Here at Numbers 21:7-9 if we read it, it says: “Finally the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah that he may remove the serpents from upon us.” And Moses went interceding in behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make for yourself a fiery snake and place it upon a signal pole. And it must occur that when anyone has been bitten, he then has to look at it and so must keep alive.” 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and placed it upon the signal pole; and it did occur that if a serpent had bitten a man and he gazed at the copper serpent, he then kept alive.”

Now look take careful note what is said here at John 3:14,15 - “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.”

So according to this verses Jesus was to be hung up just as Moses hung that serpent up. A serpent has no hands, how would moses have put it on a cross?

 

[ajcstr]

I have always liked sharing this verses with people.
Here at Numbers 21:7-9 if we read it, it says: “Finally the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah that he may remove the serpents from upon us.” And Moses went interceding in behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make for yourself a fiery snake and place it upon a signal pole. And it must occur that when anyone has been bitten, he then has to look at it and so must keep alive.” 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and placed it upon the signal pole; and it did occur that if a serpent had bitten a man and he gazed at the copper serpent, he then kept alive.”

Now look take careful note what is said here at John 3:14,15 - “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.”

Yes, but if Jesus was nailed to a crossbeam which was lifted up and rested on a vertical beam, that would agree with the scripture. Problem is I don’t think the Romans used a “standard” form for this form of torture. We know Jesus carried something so that was either a stake, a beam, or an entire cross.

We can’t know for sure, bit from Wiki : “What now appears to be the most ancient surviving image of a Roman crucifixion is a graffito found in a taberna (an inn for wayfarers) in Puteoli, dating from the time of Trajan (98–117) or Hadrian (117–138). The cross has the T shape.” I’ll go with what the early Christians believed - many of them died to preserve the faith we have today.

Something you may want to research yourself (since you brought up forced interpretations):

A study edition of the New World Translation supports the religion’s belief by reproducing an illustration from a work by 16th century philologist Justus Lipsius showing a man suspended by the wrists on a crux simplex or upright pole. However, it omits Justus Lipsius’ other illustrations of Jesus execution that show a traditional-style cross with cross-bar. James Penton, who was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness but was expelled from the religion for apostasy in 1981, has claimed that the use of the single illustration by the Watch Tower Society “demonstrates so clearly how much their scholarship is affected by dogmatism”. “Watch Tower scholars falsely leave the impression that Lipsius thought that Jesus was put to death in that way”, he wrote. “In fact, Lipsius gives sixteen illustrations of impalement, thirteen of which show stakes with some sort of cross member.”

In their book, Reasoning From the Scriptures, Jehovah’s Witnesses also reinforce their doctrine with a partial quote from The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (edited by Patrick Fairbairn, 1874) that states the crux “appears to have been originally an upright pole”. In the original text, however, the dictionary continued, “… and this always remained the most prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always, even then.”

A serpent has no hands, how would moses have put it on a cross?

The same way he would have put it on a stake maybe???.

 

[TrueWitness]

Yes, but if Jesus was nailed to a crossbeam which was lifted up and rested on a vertical beam, that would agree with the scripture. Problem is I don’t think the Romans used a “standard” form for this form of torture. We know Jesus carried something so that was either a stake, a beam, or an entire cross.

We can’t know for sure, bit from Wiki : “What now appears to be the most ancient surviving image of a Roman crucifixion is a graffito found in a taberna (an inn for wayfarers) in Puteoli, dating from the time of Trajan (98–117) or Hadrian (117–138). The cross has the T shape.” I’ll go with what the early Christians believed - many of them died to preserve the faith we have today.

Something you may want to research yourself (since you brought up forced interpretations):

A study edition of the New World Translation supports the religion’s belief by reproducing an illustration from a work by 16th century philologist Justus Lipsius showing a man suspended by the wrists on a crux simplex or upright pole. However, it omits Justus Lipsius’ other illustrations of Jesus execution that show a traditional-style cross with cross-bar. James Penton, who was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness but was expelled from the religion for apostasy in 1981, has claimed that the use of the single illustration by the Watch Tower Society “demonstrates so clearly how much their scholarship is affected by dogmatism”. “Watch Tower scholars falsely leave the impression that Lipsius thought that Jesus was put to death in that way”, he wrote. “In fact, Lipsius gives sixteen illustrations of impalement, thirteen of which show stakes with some sort of cross member.”

In their book, Reasoning From the Scriptures, Jehovah’s Witnesses also reinforce their doctrine with a partial quote from The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (edited by Patrick Fairbairn, 1874) that states the crux “appears to have been originally an upright pole”. In the original text, however, the dictionary continued, “… and this always remained the most prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always, even then.”

The same way he would have put it on a stake maybe???.

That’s the problem… There is no evidence like you say and yet it is believed that Jesus died on the cross… Only evidence people who have that view is the evidence is based on the traditions of the Christian church and artistic illustrations rather than antique texts. They ignore what the Bible clearly says.

Only reason they used the picture and omitted the others is because the Bible is clear that the word stauros means a upright pole. They are correct in using that picture.
Since you quoted from Wikipedia, let’s see what Wikipedia says about the word “Stauros”, I’ll quote it…

"In Homeric and classical Greek, until the early 4th century BC, stauros meant an upright stake, pole, or piece of paling, “on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground.”

In the literature of that time, it never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always one piece alone."

“In Koine Greek, the form of Greek used between about 300 BC and AD 300, the word σταυρός was used to denote a structure on which Romans executed criminals. In the writings of the Diodorus Siculus (1st century BC), Plutarch and Lucian – non-Christian writers, of whom only Lucian makes clear the shape of the device – the word stauros is generally translated as “stake”.[5] This form of capital punishment involved binding the victim with outstretched arms to a beam, or nailing him firmly to it through the wrists; the beam was then raised against an upright shaft and made fast to it about 3 metres from the ground, and the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft.”

If we translate the order STAUROS correctly using koine greek or hebrew then stake or pole is correct. One should then not criticize Witnesses for holden this view, since the word cross is not the original meaning of that word, the word cross was added to hold the views of those who wanted others to believe Jesus died on a cross beam

 

[TrueWitness]

Then I always wondered that people always agree to the fact that the cross was used amongst the pagans… Or Romans… Why would one want to have a pagan sign or walk around with a sign that was used by non Christians?
You said you will rather follow the early Christians but there is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that the early Christians used a cross to remember Jesus or is there?

 

[Waynec]

Good day everyone.
I hope you dont mind me joining the discussion.

You made a interesting claim which I’ll quote - “The cannot prove from the bible that God chooses not to remember certain things no matter how hard they try.”

Actually this can be proven from the Bible. I will try to help you understand this viewpoint they have using the Bible. Lets look at it…

The Scriptures say: “God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases.” (Psalm 115:3) Its important to understand that God does what he deems necessary to do, and not everything he is capable of doing. That applies also to what he decides to foresee.

Now here is an example I would like you to ponder on… After wickedness became prevalent in the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, God told the Abraham: “I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” (Genesis 18:20, 21)
So here we see that for a time, God chose not to know the extent of the wickedness in those cities. Similarly then, God can choose not to foreknow everything. I hope this helps to understand their viewpoint better and that it is alinged with scripture.

Otherwise a question which would arise is - Why did God tell Abraham “I can get to know it” and not “I already know it”?

Welcome!!!

Gen 18.20,21 The Haydock Commentary has this to say—VS21. I will go down–The Lord here accommodates his discourse to the way of speaking and acting amongst men: for he knoweth all things and needeth not to go anywhere for information.

Also some where on this thread someone posted a link to a very interesting article called "The case against open theism. I think this is what we are discussing. If you find it give it a read.

 

[oliver927]

“In Koine Greek, the form of Greek used between about 300 BC and AD 300, the word σταυρός was used to denote a structure on which Romans executed criminals. In the writings of the Diodorus Siculus (1st century BC), Plutarch and Lucian – non-Christian writers, of whom only Lucian makes clear the shape of the device – the word stauros is generally translated as “stake”.[5] This form of capital punishment involved binding the victim with outstretched arms to a beam, or nailing him firmly to it through the wrists; the beam was then raised against an upright shaft and made fast to it about 3 metres from the ground, and the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft.”

Wouldn’t the beam and the upright shaft form a cross shape?

 

[TrueWitness]

Wouldn’t the beam and the upright shaft form a cross shape?

Yes correct… I meant to say classical greek. Correction… It’s modern day greek that has added the word cross to the meaning of Stauros.

 

[TrueWitness]

Welcome!!!

Gen 18.20,21 The Haydock Commentary has this to say—VS21. I will go down–The Lord here accommodates his discourse to the way of speaking and acting amongst men: for he knoweth all things and needeth not to go anywhere for information.

Also some where on this thread someone posted a link to a very interesting article called "The case against open theism. I think this is what we are discussing. If you find it give it a read.

Yes… But he says " I will come to know"… Since we both know God can know everything, when he says he will come to know something it means that he chose not to know it before… Isnt that future tense

 

[adf417]

Then I always wondered that people always agree to the fact that the cross was used amongst the pagans… Or Romans… Why would one want to have a pagan sign or walk around with a sign that was used by non Christians?

Dont think it would matter. When you get a chance let us know of some shapes or signs that were in early christianity that was not from pagan origin. And if the early Christians would have choose something like the stake, well that too would have been scrutinized by those who cant seem to see the truth, right? I know you know how that goes, yes?

Peace!!!

 

[TrueWitness]

Dont think it would matter. When you get a chance let us know of some shapes or signs that were in early christianity that was not from pagan origin. And if the early Christians would have choose something like the stake, well that too would have been scrutinized by those who cant seem to see the truth, right? I know you know how that goes, yes?

Peace!!!

That’s why we don’t use any symbols to represent anything pertaining to Jesus or his sacrifice… There’s no biblical or historical evidence that first century Christians used any symbols… Yes definately know how that goes

 

[adf417]

That’s why we don’t use any symbols to represent anything pertaining to Jesus or his sacrifice… There’s no biblical or historical evidence that first century Christians used any symbols… Yes definately know how that goes

This may be a bit off topic but would it be more correct to say “Christians do not use the cross in worship”? and sence you do not worship Jesus what then is the problem? It cant be simply use of pagan symbols as there are many JW wearing wedding rings and we both know Jehovah is the Creator of marriaige.

Peace!!!

 

[TrueWitness]

This may be a bit off topic but would it be more correct to say “Christians do not use the cross in worship”? and sence you do not worship Jesus what then is the problem? It cant be simply use of pagan symbols as there are many JW wearing wedding rings and we both know Jehovah is the Creator of marriaige.

Peace!!!

The cross was used to worship a pagan god called Tammuz, if I’m correct. You may not agree but the cross is in and on many church buildings, and since church buildings are regarded as places of worship, would it be appropriate to mix things pertaining to pagan worship into our worship to God which is suppose to be pure… Does the Bible not say stay away from unclean things in our worship to God?
What has the wedding rings been used to worship? What God does it represent? It’s pagan things that has been used in pagan worship that we avoid really

 

[ajcstr]

Then I always wondered that people always agree to the fact that the cross was used amongst the pagans… Or Romans… Why would one want to have a pagan sign or walk around with a sign that was used by non Christians?
You said you will rather follow the early Christians but there is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that the early Christians used a cross to remember Jesus or is there?

Why does the evidence have to be in the Bible? The Bible is silent on this, the Greek word could mean a stake or it could mean a cross. So why not read the early Christians to see what they believed? Why is that to be disregarded. You read Pastor Russell’s literature and Judge Rutherford’s literature and the Watchtower’s literature. Why not read Polycarp or Justin Martyr or Clement?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

The cross was used to worship a pagan god called Tammuz, if I’m correct. You may not agree but the cross is in and on many church buildings, and since church buildings are regarded as places of worship, would it be appropriate to mix things pertaining to pagan worship into our worship to God which is suppose to be pure… Does the Bible not say stay away from unclean things in our worship to God?
What has the wedding rings been used to worship? What God does it represent? It’s pagan things that has been used in pagan worship that we avoid really

Weeeeeeeeeeeeel, I’m convinced.
I’m hoofing it from the Catholic Church. Sign me up to the nearest Kingdom Hall where we’ll…do whatever JWs do there.

Do you have any real historical documentation for these claims? No, really…do you?