Discussion with a JW

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TrueWitness said:
If we follow the original greek then we are correct in believing that Jesus died on upright pole, if you follow the modern greek then you are correct in believing Jesus died on a cross, however cross is not the original meaning of stauros which means that it was an addition somehow added later.

Constantine was the first roman emperor to convert to christianty, he brought along many of his pagan beliefs with him. Constantine sought to unite his kingdom’s pagan and Christian worshipers, in order to promote stability and ensure that his empire lasted. The easiest way to bring harmony would be to blend pagan worship and Christianity. History shows that the Church of Rome did not object, and today many of those beliefs still stands.
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Gross historical inaccuracy perpetrated by JWs among others.

At worst, Christ was hung upon a tau cross like our capital “T” but that is irrelevant.

Your assertion that Constantine paganized the Catholic Church is historical bunkum.
See the following articles. The first is from my personal blog and the other from Catholic Answers.
THE PAGANIZATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UNDER CONSTANTINE
Is Catholicism Pagan?

There are many errors in doctrine in the Jehovah’s Witness cult than any of this.
Your rejection of the deity of Jesus which is a clearly implicit teaching both of the New Testament and the early church. (See Where does Scripture state that Jesus is God?)

And then there is a metric boatload of other problems that JWs seem to ignore as they are fed their “scripture studies”.
[Link to more articles on this cult. (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=008187825485874300314%3A1bfkl0u3vji&ie=UTF-8&q=jehovah's+witness&sa=Search)

Here’s sources on the Trinity which JWs have all wrong. It’s another issue that has almost all of Christianity, including the Catholic Church not recognizing them as a Christian sect.
JustaServant said:
You’ve been asked by more than one poster to please document these ‘historical facts’ of yours.
Please do so.
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Yeah I’d like to see that myself. Most often these folks bail when they see anyone who has answers.
 
Church_Militant said:
Gross historical inaccuracy perpetrated by JWs among others.

At worst, Christ was hung upon a tau cross like our capital “T” but that is irrelevant.

Your assertion that Constantine paganized the Catholic Church is historical bunkum.
See the following articles. The first is from my personal blog and the other from Catholic Answers.
THE PAGANIZATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UNDER CONSTANTINE
Is Catholicism Pagan?

There are many errors in doctrine in the Jehovah’s Witness cult than any of this.
Your rejection of the deity of Jesus which is a clearly implicit teaching both of the New Testament and the early church. (See Where does Scripture state that Jesus is God?)

And then there is a metric boatload of other problems that JWs seem to ignore as they are fed their “scripture studies”.
[Link to more articles on this cult. (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=008187825485874300314%3A1bfkl0u3vji&ie=UTF-8&q=jehovah's+witness&sa=Search)

Here’s sources on the Trinity which JWs have all wrong. It’s another issue that has almost all of Christianity, including the Catholic Church not recognizing them as a Christian sect.
Click to expand...
👍👍👍
 
TrueWitness said:
Constantine was the first roman emperor to convert to christianty, he brought along many of his pagan beliefs with him. Constantine sought to unite his kingdom’s pagan and Christian worshipers, in order to promote stability and ensure that his empire lasted. The easiest way to bring harmony would be to blend pagan worship and Christianity. History shows that the Church of Rome did not object, and today many of those beliefs still stands.
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Which is why we are fortunate to have writings of Christians who lived centuries before Constantine so we can know if/what he really changed.

For instance Justin Martyr, in an address to the Emperor Antoninus Pius (written between 148 and 155 Ad), refers to the cross as a standard Christian symbol. I believe one of his writings describes making the sign of the cross. So Constantine who lived much later could not have been the origin. However, that’s not in the Bible so you can’t trust it.
I’ll trust Justin Martyr’s writings over anything Russell or Rutherford wrote myself if I want to know what the early Christians believed. And if the Church fell into apostasy before the time of Constantine then you really can’t even trust the Christian scriptures because the 27 books that comprise them were not agreed upon until after his time.
 
Darryl_B said:
I think you probably have no knowledge of Greek. Yes? You have chosen to ignore everything I presented as evidence and repeat your same claim without any form of evidence. A second time by a second post I might add. Someone recently said DVD. Maybe they are not far from the truth.
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LOL - that was me. I still can’t convince the McAllister’s to check upstairs for Kevin before they leave for Paris no matter how hard I try !
 
Church_Militant said:
Gross historical inaccuracy perpetrated by JWs among others.

At worst, Christ was hung upon a tau cross like our capital “T” but that is irrelevant.

Your assertion that Constantine paganized the Catholic Church is historical bunkum.
See the following articles. The first is from my personal blog and the other from Catholic Answers.
THE PAGANIZATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UNDER CONSTANTINE
Is Catholicism Pagan?

There are many errors in doctrine in the Jehovah’s Witness cult than any of this.
Your rejection of the deity of Jesus which is a clearly implicit teaching both of the New Testament and the early church. (See Where does Scripture state that Jesus is God?)

And then there is a metric boatload of other problems that JWs seem to ignore as they are fed their “scripture studies”.
[Link to more articles on this cult. (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=008187825485874300314%3A1bfkl0u3vji&ie=UTF-8&q=jehovah's+witness&sa=Search)

Here’s sources on the Trinity which JWs have all wrong. It’s another issue that has almost all of Christianity, including the Catholic Church not recognizing them as a Christian sect.
Yeah I’d like to see that myself. Most often these folks bail when they see anyone who has answers.
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I would really love to discuss all that 1 by 1… Is that possible over here?

Documentation for what?
 
TrueWitness said:
I would really love to discuss all that 1 by 1… Is that possible over here?

Documentation for what?
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For this:
Constantine was the first roman emperor to convert to christianty, he brought along many of his pagan beliefs with him. Constantine sought to unite his kingdom’s pagan and Christian worshipers, in order to promote stability and ensure that his empire lasted. The easiest way to bring harmony would be to blend pagan worship and Christianity. History shows that the Church of Rome did not object, and today many of those beliefs still stands
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.
 
TrueWitness said:
I would really love to discuss all that 1 by 1… Is that possible over here?

Documentation for what?
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I would say yes. I think you would have to start a new threads topic by topic… But I am not a moderator.

I think that would be a learning experience for all.
 
TrueWitness said:
Then I always wondered that people always agree to the fact that the cross was used amongst the pagans… Or Romans… Why would one want to have a pagan sign or walk around with a sign that was used by non Christians?
You said you will rather follow the early Christians but there is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that the early Christians used a cross to remember Jesus or is there?
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Where does it say in the Bible that all we need to know is in the Bible or that the Bible contains everything about Christianity?

The cross was a common instrument of death used by pagans. Just because something is used by pagans doesn’t make it a symbol of pagan religious beliefs. The cross is a symbol of Christian belief in the suffering and death of Christ. Christians used many ‘symbols’ as the majority of the population was illiterate, such as the fish and the cross.

The evidence of early Christian symbols is in the art, the writings of the early church, and the traditions of the church. What is more far fetched is to believe that for almost 2000 years all of Christianity got it ‘wrong’ and only a small, new sect less than 200 years old got it ‘right’.
 
TrueWitness said:
The cross was used to worship a pagan god called Tammuz, if I’m correct. You may not agree but the cross is in and on many church buildings, and since church buildings are regarded as places of worship, would it be appropriate to mix things pertaining to pagan worship into our worship to God which is suppose to be pure… Does the Bible not say stay away from unclean things in our worship to God?
What has the wedding rings been used to worship? What God does it represent? It’s pagan things that has been used in pagan worship that we avoid really
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So what if a cross was used for some obscure pagan god. Does that god own the symbol? don’t symbols change meaning with use? So you don’t believe in Christianization?

‘things used in pagan worship’ such as the English language (a pagan language that was used by many different pagan religions) How about music? can’t use music in worship because pagans also used music in worship.

The problem I have is that I can’t find anything in my church that is part of pagan worship. Well, maybe the fish hats…🤷
 
TrueWitness said:
First century Christians were against making carved images for which was related to pagan worship. thats why you wont find any history of first century christians using the cross or any other thing to remember christ or venerate him, there are many scriptures that speaks against doing it. Its centuries later long after Christ death that the symbol came into christianity as to easily make pagans accept
christianty. check the history of when the cross came into existence into christianity and by who, again history is clear on this and is not debatable
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how is a symbol of a cross going to make it easier to get pagans to accept Christianity? If they are pagans, they wouldn’t get the connection between the cross and Christ unless they were instructed in the connection by Christians.

history also tells us that early Christians were persecuted which means they were not able to fully express their religion publicly. Stands to reason that once the persecution ended Christianity was able to come out of the shadows and be fully expressed, in art, music, literature, and customs. None of which makes Christianity pagan even though art, music, literature and customs were also used by pagan religions.
 
TrueWitness said:
That’s the difference though… We follow the Bible. Anything else the Bible does not say is going beyond what is written. Then we start follow the traditions of men and that could be dangerous because we don’t know if it’s from God or not.
The early Christians didn’t use a cross in any way any where… When u say early Christians are you talking about first century Christians?
Same like there’s no evidence that they celebrated Jesus birthday every year but that’s another topic.

Russel an Rutherford always tried to base beliefs according to the Bible not according to traditions of men
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How do you know what is and what isn’t supposed to be the Bible? Aren’t you following the ‘traditions of men’ by accepting what men said was sacred scripture?

But the bible celebrates Jesus’s birthday. So although early Christians may not have had a ‘designated’ feast day, doesn’t mean that Christians today can’t have a designated feast day celebrating Jesus’s birthday.
 
Isn’t worshiping a god in general pagan in origin?? Or is that stretching it to far ?
 
TrueWitness said:
Then I always wondered that people always agree to the fact that the cross was used amongst the pagans… Or Romans… Why would one want to have a pagan sign or walk around with a sign that was used by non Christians?

You said you will rather follow the early Christians but there is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that the early Christians used a cross to remember Jesus or is there?
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Oh…Yes there is.

Paul preached the Crucified Christ…1 Corinthians 1:23
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,

And look at what Paul said to the Galatians:
Galatians 3:1

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

I hope you caught that…Jesus was publicly portrayed, as being crucified…in their eyes…so it looks like they were looking at a “christian crucifix”. 👍
 
TrueWitness said:
Then I always wondered that people always agree to the fact that the cross was used amongst the pagans… Or Romans… Why would one want to have a pagan sign or walk around with a sign that was used by non Christians?
?
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Well…as Psalm 24:1 says…Psalm 24:1

24 The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof,
the world and those who dwell therein;

Everything belongs to the Lord…even what the pagans used…even though it was used by them, Christians began using it as a symbol.

Do you see anything wrong with that?

Well…let me ask you the following:

Pagans used water for some form of pagan baptism…should Christians not use water in their rituals anymore?

Pagans knelt, clasped their hands, looked to the sky when praying to their god…should Christians not knell, clasp their hands or look to the sky when praying to the one true God?

Pagan kings sat on thrones and had crowns…the Bible says… the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14).

Should Christians then stop using the Bible as it mentions thrones and a crown for God?
 
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