Discussion with a JW

[JustaServant]

I would really love to discuss all that 1 by 1… Is that possible over here?

catholic.com/tracts/stumpers-for-the-jehovahs-witnesses

1. Is the Watch Tower Society Reliable?

In 1910 Russell wrote, "If anyone lays the Scripture Studies [short for a 7-volume WTS publication entitled Studies in the Scriptures, hereafter abbreviated as Studies] aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood the Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he will be in the light at the end of two years . . . " (WT Reprints, 9-15-1910, 4685). The WTS maintains that it is God’s reliable mouthpiece to the nations, and it claims to be God’s inspired prophet (WT, 4-1-1972, 197)—and yet its prophecies have repeatedly proven to be false. The only conclusion to be drawn is that the WTS is to be rejected as a false prophet.

Among other things, the WTS predicted the following:

1889 "The ‘battle of the great day of God almighty’ (Rev 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . " (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101).
1891 “With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy” (Studies, Vol. 3, 153).
1894 “The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble” (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677).
1897 “Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD” (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621).
1916 “The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873” (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).
1917 “Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord’s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874” (Studies, Vol. 7, 68).
1918 “Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).
1922 “The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the scriptures than 1914” (WT, 9-1-1922, 262).
1923 “1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge” (WT, 4-1-1923, 106).
1925 “The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year” (WT, 1-1-1925, 3).
1931 “There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah’s faithful ones on earth concerning the dates 1914, 1918, & 1925 . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates” (Vindication, 388, 389).
1939 “The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead” (Salvation, 361).
1941 “Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years” (Children, 10).
1946 “Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972” (They Have Found a Faith, 44).
1966 “Six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 29).
1968 “The end of the six thousand years of man’s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date” (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).

Besides false prophesies, the WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:

"To worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong … " (WT, 3-1880, 83). “It is unscriptural for worshippers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ” (WT, 11-1-1964, 671).

The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 985). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273).

“There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army” (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah’s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).

"We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . " (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). “Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil” (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).

“Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag” (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is “an idolatrous symbol” (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).

A much longer list of such contradictions and doctrinal twists by the WTS could be formed, but this suffices to remove any reason one might have to believe that "It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant scriptural counsel to his people . . . " (WT, 5-1-1964, 277). If that is the case, who is to say what will be taught tomorrow?

 

[TrueWitness]

You’ve been asked by more than one poster to please document these ‘historical facts’ of yours.
Please do so.

A question that a few of you were asking but I’m afraid I can’t post about this on this forum… I thought it allowed open discussions but I’ve been made aware that it doesn’t, and that prevents me from expressing want to say. Straight after I mentioned that message about constantine I received a message from the admins:

"Dear TrueWitness,

You have received an infraction at Catholic Answers Forums.

Reason: Contempt for Catholicism​

Contempt for Catholicism​

This infraction is worth 10 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire."

So I have to be careful and choose my words wisely, I would still like interact and exchange views on this forum wouldn’t want to be restricted forever… Oh and the history of Constantine is easy to get, just Google it.

 

[JustaServant]

A question that a few of you were asking but I’m afraid I can’t post about this on this forum… I thought it allowed open discussions but I’ve been made aware that it doesn’t, and that prevents me from expressing want to say. Straight after I mentioned that message about constantine I received a message from the admins:

"Dear TrueWitness,

You have received an infraction at Catholic Answers Forums.

Reason: Contempt for Catholicism​

Contempt for Catholicism​

This infraction is worth 10 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire."

So I have to be careful and choose my words wisely, I would still like interact and exchange views on this forum wouldn’t want to be restricted forever… Oh and the history of Constantine is easy to get, just Google it.

I hate to tell you this but there is another rule about reporting mod actions.
I’m sure you read it, since this is a Catholic forum with rules. And I am sure the Holy Spirit would have directed you to read them.
Oh well, no great surprise. You have no documentation outside of your anti-Catholic writings based on revisionist ‘history’.
In the meantime answer post 99.

 

[TrueWitness]

catholic.com/tracts/stumpers-for-the-jehovahs-witnesses

1. Is the Watch Tower Society Reliable?

In 1910 Russell wrote, "If anyone lays the Scripture Studies [short for a 7-volume WTS publication entitled Studies in the Scriptures, hereafter abbreviated as Studies] aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood the Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he will be in the light at the end of two years . . . " (WT Reprints, 9-15-1910, 4685). The WTS maintains that it is God’s reliable mouthpiece to the nations, and it claims to be God’s inspired prophet (WT, 4-1-1972, 197)—and yet its prophecies have repeatedly proven to be false. The only conclusion to be drawn is that the WTS is to be rejected as a false prophet.

Among other things, the WTS predicted the following:

1889 "The ‘battle of the great day of God almighty’ (Rev 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . " (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101).
1891 “With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy” (Studies, Vol. 3, 153).
1894 “The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble” (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677).
1897 “Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD” (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621).
1916 “The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873” (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).
1917 “Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord’s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874” (Studies, Vol. 7, 68).
1918 “Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).
1922 “The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the scriptures than 1914” (WT, 9-1-1922, 262).
1923 “1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge” (WT, 4-1-1923, 106).
1925 “The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year” (WT, 1-1-1925, 3).
1931 “There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah’s faithful ones on earth concerning the dates 1914, 1918, & 1925 . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates” (Vindication, 388, 389).
1939 “The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead” (Salvation, 361).
1941 “Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years” (Children, 10).
1946 “Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972” (They Have Found a Faith, 44).
1966 “Six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 29).
1968 “The end of the six thousand years of man’s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date” (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).

Besides false prophesies, the WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:

"To worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong … " (WT, 3-1880, 83). “It is unscriptural for worshippers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ” (WT, 11-1-1964, 671).

The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 985). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273).

“There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army” (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah’s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).

"We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . " (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). “Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil” (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).

“Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag” (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is “an idolatrous symbol” (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).

A much longer list of such contradictions and doctrinal twists by the WTS could be formed, but this suffices to remove any reason one might have to believe that "It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant scriptural counsel to his people . . . " (WT, 5-1-1964, 277). If that is the case, who is to say what will be taught tomorrow?

This is not discussing things one by one… That is copying and pasting snippets from a full article that could be discussing something totally different… I’ve seen apostates use that tactic alot they deceive people onto believing these lil snippets until one reads the whole article and then see a very different picture and then you actually get the context of it.

And yes many of our beliefs has changed over the years we are well aware of that… But God refines the congregation the closer we get to the end

 

[JustaServant]

This is not discussing things one by one… That is copying and pasting snippets from a full article that could be discussing something totally different… I’ve seen apostates use that tactic alot they deceive people onto believing these lil snippets until one reads the whole article and then see a very different picture and then you actually get the context of it.

And yes many of our beliefs has changed over the years we are well aware of that… But God refines the congregation the closer we get to the end

Universal Translator:

I can’t answer the above, so I will simply call JustaServant an apostate and deceiver and ignore the link.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

This is not discussing things one by one… That is copying and pasting snippets from a full article that could be discussing something totally different… I’ve seen apostates use that tactic alot they deceive people onto believing these lil snippets until one reads the whole article and then see a very different picture and then you actually get the context of it.

And yes many of our beliefs has changed over the years we are well aware of that… But God refines the congregation the closer we get to the end

Baloney.
It’s a tract put out by the website you are on.
You can’t answer it because you HAVE no answer.

 

[Church_Militant]

He bolted. No great surprise. JWs don’t last long here.

Or at my front door either…

 

[ajcstr]

That is copying and pasting snippets from a full article that could be discussing something totally different… I’ve seen apostates use that tactic alot they deceive people onto believing these lil snippets until one reads the whole article and then see a very different picture and then you actually get the context of it.

I believe the kettle hath officially been called black by the pot !

 

[Waynec]

This is not discussing things one by one… That is copying and pasting snippets from a full article that could be discussing something totally different… I’ve seen apostates use that tactic alot they deceive people onto believing these lil snippets until one reads the whole article and then see a very different picture and then you actually get the context of it.

And yes many of our beliefs has changed over the years we are well aware of that… But God refines the congregation the closer we get to the end

Pick a topic and start a new thread. I am sure we would be most happy to discuss it with you.

God Bless

 

[ajcstr]

Looks like he got banned already…

Would the post(s) that got him banned still be on the board? Didn’t look like anything he said was over the top unless he expounded on his Constantine theory?

 

[Waynec]

Looks like he got banned already…

Would the post(s) that got him banned still be on the board? Didn’t look like anything he said was over the top unless he expounded on his Constantine theory?

Interesting question.

 

[adf417]

… Oh and the history of Constantine is easy to get, just Google it.

Would you also say this is a proper mode of finding truth when someone is searching any teaching of the JW organization or should that person actually be directed to only jw.org? I would think your answer would be the later as it should be.

I recommend you remember this when you search what it is that the Catholic Church actually teaches or don’t complain when you hear people misrepresenting what it is JWs actually believe. You cant have it both ways!

Peace!!!

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Looks like he got banned already…

Would the post(s) that got him banned still be on the board? Didn’t look like anything he said was over the top unless he expounded on his Constantine theory?

Lets just say he’s been here before.

 

[ajcstr]

So according to this verses Jesus was to be hung up just as Moses hung that serpent up. A serpent has no hands, how would moses have put it on a cross?

This has got to be my personal highlight quote from this thread.

How do they come up with this stuff?

More puzzling is how do they take EVERYTHING so literally EXCEPT John 6 ??

 

[Waynec]

This has got to be my personal highlight quote from this thread.

How do they come up with this stuff?

More puzzling is how do they take EVERYTHING so literally EXCEPT John 6 ??

When I saw this post I could have jumped for joy!! I ask my JW friend this all the time. How do you not take John 6 literally the most literal chapter in the Bible. At least for me. They come up with all kinds of contortions to make the Body and Blood of Christ symbols. They even change the wording to “means” instead of “is”.

My body is real food and my blood is real drink (John 6:55) (John 6 is my most very favorite part of the bible.) You can’t take it any other way except as how Jesus meant it.

 

[adf417]

When I saw this post I could have jumped for joy!! I ask my JW friend this all the time. How do you not take John 6 literally the most literal chapter in the Bible. At least for me. They come up with all kinds of contortions to make the Body and Blood of Christ symbols. They even change the wording to “means” instead of “is”.

My body is real food and my blood is real drink (John 6:55) (John 6 is my most very favorite part of the bible.) You can’t take it any other way except as how Jesus meant it.

Wait, i thought they did take it literal or at least 144000 of them or at least the ones of the 144000 that are here i mean we’re here i mean…never mind.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

This has got to be my personal highlight quote from this thread.

How do they come up with this stuff?

More puzzling is how do they take EVERYTHING so literally EXCEPT John 6 ??

What I found amusing is when he said ‘Google it’.
I don’t understand how, in this day and age, how groups like the JWs can survive with all the info out there proving their beliefs to be wrong. Shows you how far ignorance can take one.
I also can’t understand how someone who is supposedly guided by the Holy Spirit has no problem lying to get back on a board he’s been banned from.
How do they rationalize that?

 

[Waynec]

What I found amusing is when he said ‘Google it’.
I don’t understand how, in this day and age, how groups like the JWs can survive with all the info out there proving their beliefs to be wrong. Shows you how far ignorance can take one.
I also can’t understand how someone who is supposedly guided by the Holy Spirit has no problem lying to get back on a board he’s been banned from.
How do they rationalize that?

I was under the impression they were not encouraged to use the internet.

I talk to one every week and I am amazed as to how they can “rationalize” what they beleive from scripture. They almost jump through hoops to “prove” their point. I am sorry that True Witness was banned I would have liked to discussed his points with him.

 

[Church_Militant]

Relax…rest assured that you’ll get a chance to encounter many more JWs along the way both here on CAF and out in your day to day life.

Me…I think they must’ve marked my mailbox or driveway because they never bother me anymore.

They never have answers to my challenges to their beliefs vs my own Catholic faith and it rattles them a bit that I can use the Bible as well or better than they can. I’m apparently supposed to be just another blind and dumb Catholic.

 

[JustaServant]

I am sorry that True Witness was banned I would have liked to discussed his points with him.

You already did, under a different username.
But fear not, he’ll sneak on again.