Discussion with a Protestant reg. "unbiblical" nature of Lent

[Ignatius]

Then let me ask you this question: since you admit that you are a slave of Christ, do you believe that you can’t lose your salvation -

As long as you do not turn away from doing all the He commanded.

 

[thetazlord]

There are a myriad of threads that deal with OSAS, feel free to search for them or open a new thread.

It is not proper to depart from the OP. But keep in mind, I am in full agreement with Paul in Philippians 3.

Your post has been properly addressed.

A word of advice. You are already dealing with the same subject in several threads, and that can be seen as proselytizing, which is banned per forum rules. If you are so willing to discuss this subject, a new thread is the proper way to go about it.

Also, it is proper and logical to first provide a definition of the things being discussed.

That’s fine, I’ll drop it. But keep in mind, my response was based on your comment about you admitting that you were a slave of Christ & not a servant. So, I was actually addressing your comment. As far as Lent goes, it still doesn’t change the fact that on EWTN, a Catholic priest did admit that the concept of Lent was borrowed from a pagan religion. I understand the analogy of the 40 years in the desert by the Israelites, & Jesus fasting for 40 days in the desert. But the 40 years were 40 years, not 40 days, & it involved the Israel who lacked faith in God, not the Church “giving up” something valuable to them, just to go back to it when the 40 days is over. And the 40 days Jesus fasted in the desert also had nothing to do with the Church. He went out there in a weakened state to be tempted by the Devil. But nowhere in Scripture does is command the Church to fast for 40 days once a year before Easter, even in the NT Church era. So, my point was, if a Christian (Protestant or Catholic) observes Lent, make sure they are observing it for the Lord as a way of giving all of him/herself to Him - not just during those 40 days - but for throughout the rest of the year too.

 

[thetazlord]

Perhaps you would like to disclose your “research” sources?

And if you have looked at the right places, such as the OT, you would have found numerous examples of repentance and fasting with ashes/earth on the heads and wearing of sackcloth.

Daniel 9:3

You do realize that this deals with Israel, specifically Daniel, not the Church, right? Plus the verse doesn’t say anything with Daniel placing ashes on his forehead, right? Plus, it says that Daniel also was in prayer AND supplications AND fasted AND wore sackcloth AND involved using ashes. I’m sure you pray during Lent, but do you also fast for 40 days? Do you wear sackcloth for 40 days? If you’re going to use this verse as “proof” for placing ashes on your forehead during the Lent, then “why” aren’t you doing these other things too?

Judith 4:11

Although Judith is in the Catholic OT, it’s not Inspired Scripture. Otherwise, Jesus Himself would have acknowledged the FOUR-fold division of the Catholic OT (Law, Prophetic, Wisdom/Sapiential, Historical), rather than the THREE-fold division that was in the Hebrew Bible (Law, Prophets, & Psalms)(Luke 24:44-45). So, your quote is not sanctioned by Jesus.

Nehemiah 9:1

Again, this involves Israel, not the Church. God never gave the Church a commandment to put ashes (or “dust”) on the foreheads. And, again, it ALSO says they fasted AND wore sackcloth AND but dust on their heads. Do you ALSO fast for 40 days? Do you ALSO wear sackcloth? If not, then you shouldn’t be using this verse as “proof” either for the concept of Lent. Plus, the purpose of Israel wearing ashes was a symbol of repentance & mourning & self-denial. But, again, this tradition is not something found in the NT Church.

If you have done your research without any bias, why would you start looking at pagan practices? It says so much about your objectivity.

I was well-aware of those verses before you posted them. Unlike when I was Catholic, as a Protestant, I’ve actually READ the entire Bible, so I’ve done my “research without any bias.” And after reading the Bible FIRST, I wanted to know what pagan religion EWTN was referring to that they said the concept of Lent was borrowed from. And the pagan religion of the concept of Lent was actually borrowed from Babylon, not Israel. Because if it was borrowed from Israel, then - again - you should ALSO be wearing sackcloth & fasting for 40 days. But I doubt you do these things - also.

 

[thetazlord]

As long as you do not turn away from doing all the He commanded.

Then if you turn away from doing what He commanded, then does that mean you “lose” your salvation? If so, then how can you be a slave, rather than just a servant?

 

[Dtmccameron]

Then if you turn away from doing what He commanded, then does that mean you “lose” your salvation? If so, then how can you be a slave, rather than just a servant?

Slaves run away? Unless you suppose God keeps people on leashes, dominating their autonomy.

Which doesn’t sound very much like God to me.

---

His response!

I’m not once saved always saved nor Calvinist or Armenian

He volunteered this without my asking. I…I’m not sure what Armenian is supposed to mean.

He then begins with some scripture…

(1 Pet. 2:24).(Heb. 1:3).(Heb. 2:17). (Heb. 10:10-12).

I do believe that scripture is the supreme foundation for all doctrine!

I’ll bet you can guess which one is coming next.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

Tradition is not equal with doctrine
Matthew 15:8-9

Jesus was the final atonement for our sin

I know I don’t walk in sin anymore, I walk in righteousness free from my sin by the power of the Holy Spirit… I speak in tongues, prophecy, and heal the sick!

So…what’s the thinking here? Before it was an issue of, “Say, friend, I think you might have the wrong idea about Lent/Catholicism” (and then this guy shows up!)

But now it’s, um…I just don’t want to be a jerk and poke the guy that reckons himself a prophet/healer with a stick.

Well, I mean I do, but that’s outside the bounds of Charity.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

That’s fine, I’ll drop it. But keep in mind, my response was based on your comment about you admitting that you were a slave of Christ & not a servant. So, I was actually addressing your comment.

Then it makes no sense to ask a question where an answer has already been given…

Forums rules in regards to inter-faith dialogue say:

It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs.

If I have already expressed that I am slave to Christ, it is not acceptable for you to question it. Just like I have not questioned your same assertion.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Then if you turn away from doing what He commanded, then does that mean you “lose” your salvation? If so, then how can you be a slave, rather than just a servant?

Matthew 7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Even people who prophesy, cast demons out, and do mighty works all in Jesus’ name will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Period. Open a new thread please.

 

[ericc]

You do realize that this deals with Israel, specifically Daniel, not the Church, right? Plus the verse doesn’t say anything with Daniel placing ashes on his forehead, right? Plus, it says that Daniel also was in prayer AND supplications AND fasted AND wore sackcloth AND involved using ashes. I’m sure you pray during Lent, but do you also fast for 40 days? Do you wear sackcloth for 40 days? If you’re going to use this verse as “proof” for placing ashes on your forehead during the Lent, then “why” aren’t you doing these other things too?

I just proved to you that putting ashes is biblical. Nehemiah 9:1 earth was put on the head. I do not know which part. Are you going to argue whether the forehead and head are different and causing a theological or doctrinal issue?

Wearing sackcloth and many other OT rituals are no longer applicable for those under the New Covenant. Fasting is recommended by the Church. Repentance/sacrament of reconciliation is very Catholic. We do it as frequently as we could.

Although Judith is in the Catholic OT, it’s not Inspired Scripture. Otherwise, Jesus Himself would have acknowledged the FOUR-fold division of the Catholic OT (Law, Prophetic, Wisdom/Sapiential, Historical), rather than the THREE-fold division that was in the Hebrew Bible (Law, Prophets, & Psalms)(Luke 24:44-45). So, your quote is not sanctioned by Jesus.

Start another thread on this. Your Protestant canon is not 3 fold. Look at your content page. It is 2-fold. OT and NT. You borrowed that from Catholics.

Again, this involves Israel, not the Church. God never gave the Church a commandment to put ashes (or “dust”) on the foreheads. And, again, it ALSO says they fasted AND wore sackcloth AND but dust on their heads. Do you ALSO fast for 40 days? Do you ALSO wear sackcloth? If not, then you shouldn’t be using this verse as “proof” either for the concept of Lent. Plus, the purpose of Israel wearing ashes was a symbol of repentance & mourning & self-denial. But, again, this tradition is not something found in the NT Church.

I was well-aware of those verses before you posted them. Unlike when I was Catholic, as a Protestant, I’ve actually READ the entire Bible, so I’ve done my “research without any bias.” And after reading the Bible FIRST, I wanted to know what pagan religion EWTN was referring to that they said the concept of Lent was borrowed from. And the pagan religion of the concept of Lent was actually borrowed from Babylon, not Israel. Because if it was borrowed from Israel, then - again - you should ALSO be wearing sackcloth & fasting for 40 days. But I doubt you do these things - also.

You said you did research that the Church practice is paganistic and was from Babylon. Prove it.

Your bias is obvious since you set out to proclaim that the Church practice is Babylonian pagan. And I repeat: prove it… You have not shown any evidence. This would be the 2nd time I am asking for the evidence. And I will keep count till you provide it. If you don’t have it, the intellectually honest thing is to retract it rather than waste everyone’s time asking you for it.

 

[Larryk113]

Most of the protestant denominations do not celebrate Ash Wednesday or Lent. Least the ones in america dont. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterian etc. A protestant who does celebrate Lent and receives ashes is an exception not the norm.

From where I come from this is correct.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;12769205:

As long as you do not turn away from doing all the He commanded.

Then if you turn away from doing what He commanded, then does that mean you “lose” your salvation? ?

The Bible says so - Remember, we have been merely grafted in. Rom 11:20-22 Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off