Discussions with Sunni Muslims

[MOCatholic]

I’ve been friends with a group of muslims in my area for about the past year, and because of our religious differences things have gotten rather tense and have degraded to a hostile environment between us.

This family is a Sunni family and I’ve tried to show them Hadith (such as ones dealing with Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf’s demise or with female captives) but they tell me that those are made up. It’s frustrating when I can cite 20 pro-Muslim websites that all say verbatim the same thing, but because they don’t want to believe it they practice extreme amounts of cognitive dissonance.

I am genuinely concerned about them, of course, and I was wondering if anyone has had any success dealing with situations like this where the audience wants to ignore things that their own people have said. What did you say to get through to them? What is a good way to address the authenticity of these sources? Are there any good online sources that attest to the authenticity of tafsir, hadith, or other biographical materials?

I’ve got a meeting with them this week and am trying to put together some more stuff that we haven’t talked about yet. What one thing would you want a Muslim to see/hear/read if you had a “captive” audience?

Thanks in advance for any and all help

 

[jakasaki]

Remember this my friend.

Any hadith that shows islam/muslims/mohamad in a bad light is “false”

Any hadith that shows islam/muslims/mohamad in a good light is “true”

Although, - here’s the kicker - although both “bad & good” hadiths are written and spoke by the same person and they are authentic.

 

[jakasaki]

I’ve been friends with a group of muslims in my area for about the past year, and because of our religious differences things have gotten rather tense and have degraded to a hostile environment between us.

This family is a Sunni family and I’ve tried to show them Hadith (such as ones dealing with Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf’s demise or with female captives) but they tell me that those are made up. It’s frustrating when I can cite 20 pro-Muslim websites that all say verbatim the same thing, but because they don’t want to believe it they practice extreme amounts of cognitive dissonance.

I am genuinely concerned about them, of course, and I was wondering if anyone has had any success dealing with situations like this where the audience wants to ignore things that their own people have said. What did you say to get through to them? What is a good way to address the authenticity of these sources? Are there any good online sources that attest to the authenticity of tafsir, hadith, or other biographical materials?

I’ve got a meeting with them this week and am trying to put together some more stuff that we haven’t talked about yet. What one thing would you want a Muslim to see/hear/read if you had a “captive” audience?

Thanks in advance for any and all help

Give us some of your situations/discussions with them. And let’s deal with them and give you some guidance.

There are many Christians on here who are ex-muslims, whether, Sunni or Shia or other.

So, please elaborate within your thread. Thanks!

 

[schaick]

Pray, Pray, Pray!

Islam is not really so much a religion but **a cult and idealogy **that controls every aspect of their lives. They can not go against Moahammd or their Imam, to do so might cause their death.

Death for apostay is very much a part of their religion. Do not push anything if there is danger to any of your friends from other Muslims.

Islam tells them what to eat, wear, how to great others, everything! From an early age young chidren are forced to memorize the Quran and absorb it into the very fiber of their being. I have read of children being shackled and beaten until the Quran is memorized.

Talk up Jesus His sinlessness, the LOVE of GOD.

Muslims are very impressed by how Christians feel so close to GOD- they do not have a relationship allah is distant.

Tell them about the promise of Salvation through Jesus.

Muslims have no promise of paradise except to fight and kill for allah:

9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

 

[jakasaki]

Pray, Pray, Pray!

Islam is not really so much a religion but **a cult and idealogy **that controls every aspect of their lives. They can not go against Moahammd or their Imam, to do so might cause their death.

Death for apostay is very much a part of their religion. Do not push anything if there is danger to any of your friends from other Muslims.

Islam tells them what to eat, wear, how to great others, everything! From an early age young chidren are forced to memorize the Quran and absorb it into the very fiber of their being. I have read of children being shackled and beaten until the Quran is memorized.

Talk up Jesus His sinlessness, the LOVE of GOD.

Muslims are very impressed by how Christians feel so close to GOD- they do not have a relationship allah is distant.

Tell them about the promise of Salvation through Jesus.

Muslims have no promise of paradise except to fight and kill for allah:

9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

I admire you post Schaick and I do not disagree with it and also with what you have written, but you just gave the OP a blanket of statements.

I’m still interested with the debate/discussions the OP is having with his Sunni muslim friends in order to understand so we may be able to help him/her provide answers.

 

[MOCatholic]

I agree that anything good is acceptable and anything bad is false. That’s been the tract of many of our discussions. I’ve broached many topics, the ones that come to mind are Aisha, wife beating, polygamy, and Mohammed’s lack of miracles.

Their answers are that Aisha and Mohammed was a product of the times and thus acceptable. Wife beating is a last resort and must be done lightly; it’s also ok if the person is hot tempered, it allows those people to cross the line when they can’t control themselves. I pointed out that wife beating should be the complete opposite of the last thing you do if you want to save your marriage - they replied that I just don’t know Arab women and sometimes you need to have a strong hand. They cite hadith to show that Mohammed had miracles, despite the Koran’s “warner” language and despite the fact that they will disown hadith they don’t like…

I’ve also discussed some of the theological aspects such as Mohammed’s lack of Bible citations (as in if the Bible was going to be changed - they believe it was intact at his time - then why didn’t God indicate where it was changed, how it would be changed, what it SHOULD say so we can investigate) Mohammed’s violence, etc… The lack of citations is “God changes his mode of revelation” and violence is that I’m making it up. Again, anything in hadith that is bad is false, anything good is totally true and supersedes everything.

I’ve been trying to incorporate Christian theology into our discussions; such as that if God is perfect so is His law…if His law is perfect then it has a punishment; to forgive without punishment is to be imperfect. They’ve responded that God can change His mind.

This is already getting long, but I’ll say this and maybe you’ll have some feedback - the majority of the ones I’m talking to are women and I’d really like to focus on some things they’d rightly find offensive. My sources are limited to ones that are populous and easily accessible - like hadith - as I have to have about 10-15 cites for each point before they start to believe me.

I’d really like to know what’s on “al-islam.com” as they apparently have hadith online, but only if you can read Arabic, which I can’t. I think if they had the same information, from Saudi Arabian sources, that maybe they could understand that I’m not lying or trying to “win”, but was concerned more than anything.

 

[jakasaki]

@ poster MoCatholic…

I didn’t give up on you.

Your post is loaded and it requires time, which I do not have right now. It’s 7.04 in NY and must attend to the family, but I will be back to address your points.

Between me and many other Christian and ex-muslim posters, you’ll have some answers.

Best regards,
Pam
New York

 

[Nine_Two]

If you read conversations on this board between Christians and Muslims you’ll see that the problems you’re experiencing are par for the course.

They avoid questions they don’t like, they give contradictory arguments, they claim that something is correct solely because the koran says it is, and yes, they denounce hadith if they make them uncomfortable and give their own hadith that help their point.

At least one of the Christian posters on this forum - Byzantine Wolf - is a former Muslim, so there is hope that you might be able to get through to them, but in truth the issue is that they have to be honest with themselves, all the arguments in the world aren’t going to help.

Also keep in mind that you’ll almost never have someone change their minds in the middle of a debate. 99% of the time if they’re going to do it, they’ll do it after when they have a chance to think through arguments on their own. So don’t expect immediate response to the questions you bring up, although if the environment is hostile that might make it harder to get anywhere.

 

[dzheremi]

It is generally not recommended to confront Muslims of any sect on the incoherency of their arguments. It is not likely to do anything but make them shut down or become defensive, just as Christians often do the same when confronted with inconsistencies in theirs.

What I can share from having interacted with Muslims here and elsewhere is that those who are willing to have a serious discussion or agree to disagree with you without adding unnecessary jabs at your faith are few and far between. If you can establish your own humanity (and recognize theirs) before you ever breach a religious topic, it will be that much better, as you can proceed from the position of friends. I honestly have far fewer Muslim friends than Muslim acquaintances, but those few that I do have are the only reason I can even bare to put up with the reactionary majority, if I may be so blunt. They teach me things I wouldn’t learn otherwise, and help to humanize their faith in a way that their texts and history cannot.

If you must talk about religion with your Muslim friends (and I highly recommend that you do), make sure that before you do so you have in mind a number of analogies that you can use to make Christianity more understandable to the Muslim. Be ready to answer questions about Christian doctrine that will probably seem very strange or twisted to you, as they are not rooted in what we believe, but what the Qur’an and other Islamic sources say we believe. Muslims really do not have any idea of Christianity, even though they think that the Qur’an gives them all the facts that are fit to print.

Although it is written by an Egyptian Protestant, not Coptic Orthodox or Catholic, I can recommend the book “The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross” by Dr. Nabeel T. Jabbour. My recommendation comes with reservations, as there are points in the book I definitely do not agree with, but on the whole it provides several different perspectives and strategies for addressing Muslims in ways that are respectful and understandable to them.

Good luck.

 

[MOCatholic]

@ Nine_Two - I’ve lurked here for several months and have definitely seen what you’re talking about. It’s unfortunate and frustrating when someone basically shrugs their shoulders and puts their fingers in their ears when you show them their own material.

@dzheremi - Thanks for the book recommendation, I’ll see if the bookstore has that this week. Their view of Christianity is incomplete, but very Western centric as they grew up in America. As such, they don’t have many preconceived notions about Christians and fortunately I haven’t run into a problem of “koran said” “Christians said” about what we actually believe. They do, however, immediately put up a mental wall whenever I discuss Christian doctrine as, from what I can tell, the koran has done a good job of incorporating thoughtcrime into their mental strategy.

@ jakasaki - thanks for any and all (name removed by moderator)ut you can provide, I appreciate it

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I am genuinely concerned about them, of course, and I was wondering if anyone has had any success dealing with situations like this where the audience wants to ignore things that their own people have said. What did you say to get through to them? What is a good way to address the authenticity of these sources? Are there any good online sources that attest to the authenticity of tafsir, hadith, or other biographical materials?

What you’ve just stated (the problem with hadith) is common. One thing you must understand is that it is common for Muslims, when they find embarrassing ahadith or ahadith that contradict their argument, to say, “Oh that’s hadith, not all hadith are trustworthy.” The problem is they will then have no problem quoting a hadith that proves their point. There exist ahadith that are called trustworthy and are respected by most scholars, such as the sahih hadith, and especially the sahih hadith of al Bukhari. Furthermore, there is a science to how a hadith is deemed reliable or unreliable. If they dare to challenge a sahih hadith, ask them why. Christians are able to explain why Gnostics gospels cannot be trusted, therefore there should be no problem nor hesitation for educated Muslims to say why a hadith cannot be trusted. If they avoid this argumentation, then they are simply playing you for a strawman.

In regards of how to get through, really that is only up to God and through His power and grace. Remember that we’re no in the days of the apostles where opponents can be struck blind at a given command. Some people (like myself) are converted slowly over time, and things have to sink in and have an effect. Play your part and preach the truth, and do not compromise. If they reject what you say, they reject not you but He who sent you. If they embrace what you say, then they embrace Him.

 

[Sam_777]

I’ve got a meeting with them this week and am trying to put together some more stuff that we haven’t talked about yet. What one thing would you want a Muslim to see/hear/read if you had a “captive” audience?

That’s really complicated, the contradictions between Islam & Christianity are many, maybe you can concentrate on one subject at a time, also it’s good to come here at CAF from time to time, to take some advices since most members here are well knowledgeable about Islam.

However, for English translation of Quran & Hadith you can use this site, and for English Tafseer you can use this site.

Maybe you can start discussing why that angel who came to Muhammed in his first revelation didn’t say his name, and why that angel used force with Muhammed per this authentic hadith:

***Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
**(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. *

• "The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija replied, “Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones.”

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.” But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. "*
(E) (A).

 

[Sam_777]

Any hadith that shows islam/muslims/mohamad in a bad light is “false”

Any hadith that shows islam/muslims/mohamad in a good light is “true”

:yup:

Islam is not really so much a religion but **a cult and idealogy **that controls every aspect of their lives. They can not go against Moahammd or their Imam, to do so might cause their death.

Death for apostay is very much a part of their religion. Do not push anything if there is danger to any of your friends from other Muslims.

Islam tells them what to eat, wear, how to great others, everything! From an early age young chidren are forced to memorize the Quran and absorb it into the very fiber of their being. I have read of children being shackled and beaten until the Quran is memorized.

Talk up Jesus His sinlessness, the LOVE of GOD.

Muslims are very impressed by how Christians feel so close to GOD- they do not have a relationship allah is distant.

well said schaick. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

If you must talk about religion with your Muslim friends (and I highly recommend that you do), make sure that before you do so you have in mind a number of analogies that you can use to make Christianity more understandable to the Muslim. Be ready to answer questions about Christian doctrine that will probably seem very strange or twisted to you, as they are not rooted in what we believe, but what the Qur’an and other Islamic sources say we believe.

I agree.

 

[jakasaki]

@ MoCatholic ~

Check your PM system.

 

[MOCatholic]

That’s really complicated, the contradictions between Islam & Christianity are many, maybe you can concentrate on one subject at a time, also it’s good to come here at CAF from time to time, to take some advices since most members here are well knowledgeable about Islam.

However, for English translation of Quran & Hadith you can use this site, and for English Tafseer you can use this site.

Maybe you can start discussing why that angel who came to Muhammed in his first revelation didn’t say his name, and why that angel used force with Muhammed per this authentic hadith:

***Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
***(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.

• "The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija replied, “Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones.”

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.” But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. "*
(E) (A).

I have brought this up in passing, but haven’t really had a full fledged discussion about it. They are divorced from any Biblical history and have no knowledge, beyond the koran, about how they think God and angels have operated in the past. It makes it difficult to draw parallels and contrast the Biblical narratives where the angels have 1) clearly identified themselves and 2) not assaulted the recipient. They just assume such cloak and dagger operation is par for the course.

Also, if I’m reading this correctly, Mohammed’s own family member was translating a Bible was he not? This family I’m discussing things with is a “jewish conspiracy” Biblical corruption group - and so maybe I’ll bring up the fact that Mohammed should’ve had his own authentic copy for all to read from if he wanted to show that the Jews and Christians of his time were lying or “writing with their own hand”. Strange that even with his own copy of the Bible he couldn’t quote once to prove his point. Even more strange that with such a focus on alleged textual purity surrounding the Koran, they didn’t keep around some “unchanged” Bibles for comparison sake.

 

[Mvrk]

What you’ve just stated (the problem with hadith) is common. One thing you must understand is that it is common for Muslims, **when they find embarrassing ahadith or ahadith that contradict their argument, to say, “Oh that’s hadith, not all hadith are trustworthy.” The problem is they will then have no problem quoting a hadith that proves their point. **There exist ahadith that are called trustworthy and are respected by most scholars, such as the sahih hadith, and especially the sahih hadith of al Bukhari. … If they avoid this argumentation, then they are simply playing you for a strawman.

…

After read this post, i think every single Moslem in this World are the same. Same argument, same pattern…

…

Also, if I’m reading this correctly, Mohammed’s own family member was translating a Bible was he not?** This family I’m discussing things with is a “jewish conspiracy” Biblical corruption group** - and so maybe I’ll bring up the fact that Mohammed should’ve had his own authentic copy for all to read from if he wanted to show that the Jews and Christians of his time were lying or “writing with their own hand”. Strange that even with his own copy of the Bible he couldn’t quote once to prove his point. Even more strange that with such a focus on alleged textual purity surrounding the Koran, they didn’t keep around some “unchanged” Bibles for comparison sake.

In my country, the common Hoax is:
“It is Paul the Jew (St.Paul) Who change and edit whole Gospel, that’s why the Christian have Trinity Doctrine. That doctrine against the will of Prophet Isa and it contains Jewish Paganism. Prophet Isa teach the truth of Islam.”

by the way, is that right that Waraqah is Nestorian?

 

[dzheremi]

Ah, the hoary old “Paul invented Christianity” bit, the stalwart argument of Muslims throughout the ages. Too bad for them that it has never, ever had even the slightest shred of proof, and has many, many counter-proofs. I pray that Muslims the world over might one day defend their own faith without inventing lies about another.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

After read this post, i think every single Moslem in this World are the same. Same argument, same pattern…

You will find, if you speak to enough Muslims or study Muslim apologetics enough, that they only have a handful of arguments used several different ways. “Jesus never says I am God,” “They didn’t break His legs so that means He was still alive,” “Paul invented the Trinity,” etc etc etc. You hear them so many times that you begin refuting them in your sleep, and you realize how shallow Muslim apologetics really are.

 

[MOCatholic]

They’ve brought that St. Paul one out on me as well. Or Constantine invented Christianity…then when you show them what was actually said at the counsel and then show them what Arias actually taught (not a Muslim teaching by any stretch), they want to stop listening.

It’s entirely frustrating as, for me personally, if I was embarrassed or physically repulsed by things that are said to be God ordained, I would, at the very least, be questioning every priest I could find to see why on Earth I should keep being such a faith. If I had to run from my history as opposed to embracing it the more I learn about it, that would set off warning bells in my head.

 

[Mvrk]

Ah, the hoary old “Paul invented Christianity” bit, the stalwart argument of Muslims throughout the ages. Too bad for them that it has never, ever had even the slightest shred of proof, and has many, many counter-proofs.** I pray that Muslims the world over might one day defend their own faith without inventing lies about another.**

I Agree with you, i think Muslims always feel “Threatened” so they could use their Taqqiya everytime

By the way, have you ever heard about this Gossip?

“The Northern Indian Tribes before the age of Colombus, they converted to islam when Turkish Fleet enter American Continent.”

So they assumed every Explorers like Cortez, Colombus or other European explorer who slaughter the American Natives, they actually slaughter Islam. They try to manipulate the fact, they try to blame the European or we could say, “European Christian” Explorer.

I know it’s funny, but last time this topic defended by many Muslims with many false Source for about 2 weeks.

You will find, if you speak to enough Muslims or study Muslim apologetics enough, that they only have a handful of arguments used several different ways. “Jesus never says I am God,” “They didn’t break His legs so that means He was still alive,” “Paul invented the Trinity,” etc etc etc. You hear them so many times that you begin refuting them in your sleep, and you realize how shallow Muslim apologetics really are.

I Hear this EVERY time in my Local Forum… Usually they take few verses from bible to disprove the Divinity of Jesus without consider other verses that support it. Very Sola Scriptura i think… (from Islam point of view)

But the most annoying part is, when they lost their argument. Ad Hominem style of discussion started…

They’ve brought that St. Paul one out on me as well. Or Constantine invented Christianity…then when you show them what was actually said at the counsel and then show them what Arias actually taught (not a Muslim teaching by any stretch), they want to stop listening.

It’s entirely frustrating as, for me personally, if I was embarrassed or physically repulsed by things that are said to be God ordained, I would, at the very least, be questioning every priest I could find to see why on Earth I should keep being such a faith. If I had to run from my history as opposed to embracing it the more I learn about it, that would set off warning bells in my head.

Yes, they also tell everyone with those constantine tales.
I think Muslims also borrow protestant Anti-Catholic materials, i found some Muslims use the Hoax of Sun-Day worship and 25 December of Egyptian Worship.

In my opinion, to stop conversation and make some “checkmate” discussion with Muslim, try to Confront it with pure Historical source. (Take more than 2 different source )

Usually when they accuse with Constantine Edict of milan, i simply give the Edict of Milan itself. And i will let them read it by themselves.