Disdain for authority figures

[JackVk]

I struggle to accept the idea that “all authority is from God”. This election cycle has opened our collective eyes to the fact that our government is exploiting us and is out of touch with our needs.

I voted for Trump knowing he would renege on his campaign promises. I had no illusion he would win, but when I did, boy, was it funny! But now he’s just another Goldman Sachs lapdog bringing us to the brink of war (something Hillary Clinton would also have done).

I have come to hold borderline anarchistic political views. In principle, I think there should be no gun control whatsoever (Notice how the media sensationalizes every act of gun violence; they want gun bans because they know We the People are mad as hell).

And I laugh at those who say “think of the children” as an argument for gun control. They’re typically the same people who are a-okay with blowing up kids in drone strikes and chopping them up in abortion clinics.

I really don’t see how paying taxes is any different than paying tribute to the mob. At the end of the day, it’s “pay us or you go to jail”. Somebody refute me?

I have less faith in the cops and the military; the former protects and serves the judges, lawyers, and traffic ticket money, while the latter protects the Israeli bankers, Saudi oil barons, and Afghan poppy fields (notice how ISIS hasn’t attacked Israel yet? Makes you think).

I am pro-free speech. I really think people should have the right to speak their minds. Cutting out someone’s tongue does not prove him a liar, it just shows you fear what he might say. Rights do not end where someone’s precious feelings begin.

Lastly, this is starting to leach over to churchmen, Pope Francis especially. He seems more concerned with making Catholicism easy and politically correct, instead of standing up for the Gospel. He just ousted Cardinal Muller, and is he taking any action regarding Pell’s sexual assault charges? Meanwhile, genuine vanguards of the faith like Sarah, Burke, and Bishop Athanasius Schneider are being marginalized.

How am I supposed to remain loyal to God in this sense if those who supposed have His permission to rule are woefully corrupt? Also, what happened to “we must obey God rather than men”? Are we just supposed to let evildoers have their way?

 

[exnihilo]

I really don’t see how paying taxes is any different than paying tribute to the mob. At the end of the day, it’s “pay us or you go to jail”. Somebody refute me?..

How am I supposed to remain loyal to God in this sense if those who supposed have His permission to rule are woefully corrupt? Also, what happened to “we must obey God rather than men”? Are we just supposed to let evildoers have their way?

I definitely agree with the mob comparison.

No authority is perfect, not politicians, not churchmen, not your boss, not your parents. It is a mistake to assume that because God grants authority to men who may be incompetent or even wicked that this calls into question God’s providence. This is really a subset of the problem of evil. God allows bad things that good may result. We may have terrible leaders now because it ultimately is for our good. And rejoice knowing that with the terrible leaders we have our acts of obedience are even more meritorious.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I struggle to accept the idea that “all authority is from God”. This election cycle has opened our collective eyes to the fact that our government is exploiting us and is out of touch with our needs.

I voted for Trump knowing he would renege on his campaign promises. I had no illusion he would win, but when I did, boy, was it funny! But now he’s just another Goldman Sachs lapdog bringing us to the brink of war (something Hillary Clinton would also have done).

I have come to hold borderline anarchistic political views. In principle, I think there should be no gun control whatsoever (Notice how the media sensationalizes every act of gun violence; they want gun bans because they know We the People are mad as hell).

And I laugh at those who say “think of the children” as an argument for gun control. They’re typically the same people who are a-okay with blowing up kids in drone strikes and chopping them up in abortion clinics.

I really don’t see how paying taxes is any different than paying tribute to the mob. At the end of the day, it’s “pay us or you go to jail”. Somebody refute me?

I have less faith in the cops and the military; the former protects and serves the judges, lawyers, and traffic ticket money, while the latter protects the Israeli bankers, Saudi oil barons, and Afghan poppy fields (notice how ISIS hasn’t attacked Israel yet? Makes you think).

I am pro-free speech. I really think people should have the right to speak their minds. Cutting out someone’s tongue does not prove him a liar, it just shows you fear what he might say. Rights do not end where someone’s precious feelings begin.

Lastly, this is starting to leach over to churchmen, Pope Francis especially. He seems more concerned with making Catholicism easy and politically correct, instead of standing up for the Gospel. He just ousted Cardinal Muller, and is he taking any action regarding Pell’s sexual assault charges? Meanwhile, genuine vanguards of the faith like Sarah, Burke, and Bishop Athanasius Schneider are being marginalized.

How am I supposed to remain loyal to God in this sense if those who supposed have His permission to rule are woefully corrupt? Also, what happened to “we must obey God rather than men”? Are we just supposed to let evildoers have their way?

I’d like to know why you think the media sensationalizes gun violence.
Why don’t you think people’s reactions to words are valid?
You don’t think it is possible for speech to be offensive, crude, distasteful, provocative?
Doesn’t the Bible say we will render an account for every careless word we utter.
The tongue has the power to build and/or destroy.
Most acts of violence start from words then it escalates.
I’d go even further and say most instances of abuse are indeed verbal.
Very rarely does a person get angry enough to hurt someone without being provoked in some way. Sure they should have better judgment and not let the words of other’s hurt them.
Then again, realistically, sure we aren’t entirely responsible for how people perceive or react to our words. But don’t play that game to get away with bullying or feign innocence.
If you call someone the n word, c word, or whatever rude word, don’t expect to keep your job, friendship, etc.
You have the right to say whatever you want, there are natural consequences.
Perhaps offense and rudeness are in the eye of the beholder.

 

[peter26]

Those with real authority use it to do God’s will. In the Old Testament, in the Books of the Kings and the Chronicles in particular, there are descriptions of many Kings of Israel. Some are described as doing what was right in the eyes of God and some as doing what was evil. In the end, the whole nation was punished for the sins of their leaders. This is a very good lesson for us today. Don’t forget that every election is a chance to elect people who represent the right values, and to remove those who do not. Those to intelligent to become involved in politics are rewarded by being governed by those less intelligent than them.

 

[CRATUS]

The church has enough bad p.r. Do you really think fire and brimstone tactics are going to attract more followers to the Catholic Church? I don’t think the church should compromise it’s values to make it more palatable for others. Why do people care so much about the truth anyways? I’m not sure why the truth above all else is more important than people’s feelings?

 

[peter26]

The church has enough bad p.r. Do you really think fire and brimstone tactics are going to attract more followers to the Catholic Church? I don’t think the church should compromise it’s values to make it more palatable for others. Why do people care so much about the truth anyways? I’m not sure why the truth above all else is more important than people’s feelings?

Because truth exists, there is a truth and knowing what is true and acting on it actually matters. Feelings are transitory and fade with time. They are of little importance in the grand scheme of things.

 

[CRATUS]

Because truth exists, there is a truth and knowing what is true and acting on it actually matters. Feelings are transitory and fade with time. They are of little importance in the grand scheme of things.

I never considered this perspective. While I know you are indeed correct, I don’t think I fully agree with you. Being right is not everything. Reminds me of someone who is brutally honest, yes, but seems to undermine my feelings. As if knowing the truth gives you the authority to bulldoze through people’s feelings or disrespect them. We are people with dignity.
For whatever reason, I’ve never cared or understood why people care so much about the truth. Perhaps I’ve always seen it as a way to cut down or hurt others.
The truth is bigger than our feelings or insecurities.
Now what to do with our feelings?

 

[JackVk]

I definitely agree with the mob comparison.

No authority is perfect, not politicians, not churchmen, not your boss, not your parents. It is a mistake to assume that because God grants authority to men who may be incompetent or even wicked that this calls into question God’s providence. This is really a subset of the problem of evil. God allows bad things that good may result. We may have terrible leaders now because it ultimately is for our good. And rejoice knowing that with the terrible leaders we have our acts of obedience are even more meritorious.

I never meant to call God’s providence into question. I am more in the mindset of “I answer to God, and nobody else”. The powers that be conflict with God, and therefore, are undeserving of my loyalty.

 

[JackVk]

I’d like to know why you think the media sensationalizes gun violence.
Why don’t you think people’s reactions to words are valid?
You don’t think it is possible for speech to be offensive, crude, distasteful, provocative?
Doesn’t the Bible say we will render an account for every careless word we utter.
The tongue has the power to build and/or destroy.
Most acts of violence start from words then it escalates.
I’d go even further and say most instances of abuse are indeed verbal.
Very rarely does a person get angry enough to hurt someone without being provoked in some way. Sure they should have better judgment and not let the words of other’s hurt them.
Then again, realistically, sure we aren’t entirely responsible for how people perceive or react to our words. But don’t play that game to get away with bullying or feign innocence.
If you call someone the n word, c word, or whatever rude word, don’t expect to keep your job, friendship, etc.
You have the right to say whatever you want, there are natural consequences.
Perhaps offense and rudeness are in the eye of the beholder.

They most certainly do. Protip: anytime they use the phrase “military-grade assault rifle” to describe an AR-15, that’s proof that they a. Have an agenda, and b. Have no idea what they’re talking about. An “assault rifle” has to be capable of selective fire (switching between semi-auto and full auto).

An AR-15 you could buy at, say, Cabela’s, does not fit this litmus test. It only looks scary, and that’s what every anti-gun argument ultimately rests upon. It’s a sporing rifle, nothing more.

And guess what? I personally do not own any guns. I just know that gun control is a hallmark policy of authoritarians. The 2nd Amendment is all about leverage; it’s far better for the government to fear the people than the people to fear the government.

 

[jmcrae]

I never meant to call God’s providence into question. I am more in the mindset of “I answer to God, and nobody else”. The powers that be conflict with God, and therefore, are undeserving of my loyalty.

Since it is impossible to interact with God directly, He sets up human leaders over us, and in obeying them, we obey God.

Otherwise, we’re just following our own personal opinions, and we naturally imagine that God agrees with our opinions.

Numbers 16 shows what God’s opinion is of those who think that because they are right, they therefore aren’t required to follow human authority.

 

[1neophyte]

I never considered this perspective. While I know you are indeed correct, I don’t think I fully agree with you. Being right is not everything. Reminds me of someone who is brutally honest, yes, but seems to undermine my feelings. As if knowing the truth gives you the authority to bulldoze through people’s feelings or disrespect them. We are people with dignity.
For whatever reason, I’ve never cared or understood why people care so much about the truth. Perhaps I’ve always seen it as a way to cut down or hurt others.
The truth is bigger than our feelings or insecurities.
Now what to do with our feelings?

What is so special about feelings? It is actually more hurtful to prioritize feelings over truth. As a random example, let’s say that you knew a friend’s spouse was cheating on them. Wouldn’t it be far more hurtful to allow them to be made into a fool by continuing to live an illusion? Wouldn’t it be more merciful to let them in on the truth, as painful as the resulting feelings would be?

I’m also reminded of a video I show to my Confirmation class every year. It shows a father taking his young son back into a store, and forcing him to return some candy that he had stolen. The child is crying and begging to not have to do it. As I point out to the students, it is far more loving of the father to disregard the child’s momentary feelings in favor of the truth.

All this to say, the Church does no favors for anyone if its primary consideration is feelings.

 

[BarbTh]

Romans Chapter 13 “Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.”

Hence we know that all authority indeed comes from God; therefore we are called to obey rightful authority. We are not called to sin which we know beyond any shadow of a doubt. Authority figures have their authority from God can and sometimes do abuse it. Authority figures too have free will.

Some authority figures can and do abuse a gift and power from God and that is sinful and we are NEVER called to sin under any circumstances whatsoever, in fact we are called to outright reject it under all circumstances and we renew the promise and vow to do so every Easter.

Lastly, this is starting to leach over to churchmen, Pope Francis especially. He seems more concerned with making Catholicism easy and politically correct, instead of standing up for the Gospel.

The above is a personal opinion and interpretation of the motivations of Pope Francis - and you are entitled, as are we all, to have our own personal opinions and interpretations on various matters. However, as a generalization, opinions and interpretations of motivation of anyone at all is a very murky even risky move in the light of what Jesus has said in His Gospel.

Just as some query in a negative manner what Pope Francis has said, others absolutely and totally agree with him. It is an area of conflict today around our Holy Father and Pope. I don’t think it is too far off the mark (Of interest but off topic: sin also means “to miss the mark” patheos.com/blogs/e2medianetwork/2016/11/wwutt-sin-means-to-miss-the-mark/) to state that most all our Popes have had areas of conflict and disagreement around them somewhere.

Debate and disagreements are healthy, a sign of health…i.e. the freedom granted/present to freely debate issues - freedom of speech. Debate and disagreements to me mean that in all likelihood the fullness of truth on an issue is yet to be heard - i.e. truth is still unfolding. It is when the status quo is agreed with and protected at all costs that the danger is the situation could become an unhealthy and negative, even an intrinsically quite dangerous, one…without getting ridiculous about that statement because we are called by God to unfailing obedience in matters of Faith and Morals in The Church.

Debate to me becomes even possibly sinful in some way when the actual issue is not being addressed, rather a personality - and often can be a quite cruel attempt to ridicule, intimidate and bully the other into silence. Even on Catholic sites in Debate Forums (for one) such ridicule etc of the other can seem to be a right in a debate forum (for one). It is neither Gospel nor in the footsteps of Jesus. It could even be sinful.

 

[michaelArc]

Why do people care so much about the truth anyways? I’m not sure why the truth above all else is more important than people’s feelings?

Truth is important because it’s liberating. John 8:32 “You will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Feelings are never a good gauge on things, yet how often do we see people nowadays make decisions based on how they feel?

This is just one example, but imagine if we qualified this rationale with someone who has BIID (Body integrity identity disorder.) An otherwise sane and rational individual who FEELS a strong and specific desire for the amputation their healthy limb or limbs.

Should they act on these feelings? Or does the truth of dealing with a psychological disorder matter?

 

[mikekle]

I think its odd how many people take scripture that was meant for a certain time period and a certain type of authority and try to apply it to modern times, I have seen numerous threads on CAF on other topics where this is explained and discouraged, but when it comes to authority and our obedience/ subservience, many people tend to believe the same thing applies to the type of authority/ Govt we have today.

That could not be anymore wrong imo. The type of authority we have today in the US is extremely tyrannical in nature, they seek to get their hands in every aspect of our lives, while most of the time claiming it is in our best interest and/or for our safety/national security, so its no surprise I see so many ‘pro authority’ folks today, they have all fallen for a great deception

A good example is “Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is Gods”…notice it did not say give ‘Caesar’ everything he asks (complete obedience), there are some things we should not ‘give’ Caesar or things we should not obey (no matter what the consequences are).

 

[exnihilo]

I never meant to call God’s providence into question. I am more in the mindset of “I answer to God, and nobody else”. The powers that be conflict with God, and therefore, are undeserving of my loyalty.

To quote a Clint Eastwood character, deserves got nothing to do with it, at least as far as obedience goes. Obedience is owed based on rightful authority. The bad acts of an authority don’t cause him to cease to be an authority.

As for loyalty I’d agree that many authorities are not deserving of that. But I’d consider loyalty to be different from obedience. Christians have distinguished themselves precisely by obedience. Of course you should never follow an instruction that is wrong, but then you should also be willing to accept the consequences.

 

[Clevus]

I understand.

As concerns the justice system and due process, the writings of Sr. Prejean speaks of her work in the justice system.

It doesn’t help that their are no scriptural examples that involve governance by election of an individual, or a leadership panel who decides by consensus. The outcome of who is ultimately responsible must be more complex than say a monarchical system. In that age, democracy was in it’s infancy and much abused. It would seem the statement today in our democratic elective process would be closer to “all authority from God is an appointed official or panel who was elected by citizens who, with various degrees of state of conscience and grace of ability to control, have voted him/them as their leader.” We note that from the approval from God, to the culmination of moral governance is interrupted with the involvement of the citizenry who play vector roll on the culmination. In this involvement stage the outcome is almost unpredictable, and no one knows how the dice will fall except God. So I guess the person that gets there regardless of system is still a desire of God.(There are no coincidences.)

This ideal creates an odd effect in principle. Given a candidate is an assisted death proponent, then the person who elects him on that platform, is actually helping the odds that the leader will find himself presented to an occasion to sin since his ‘attraction’ is an actual weakness. It almost seems then the electing individual would be complicit in his act, no different than a helper who hands burglar tools while in a robbery.

Not as simple as the Malakite case and others it would seem.

Another question we should ask ourselves is at what point can we be justified in ousting such a leader or system if he/it is a tyrant? Would the See have us tolerate the murder and mass burial of families(South America), or should we scorn the French Resistance(WWII). The American revolution wasn’t caused by mass starvation, or intolerable oppression, but a question of principle. If no revolution occurred, would the nation simply evolve no different than other nations today, or perhaps a mirror of Canada as it evolved.?

Would the See approve of such a startover.?

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Truth is important because it’s liberating. John 8:32 “You will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Feelings are never a good gauge on things, yet how often do we see people nowadays make decisions based on how they feel?

This is just one example, but imagine if we qualified this rationale with someone who has BIID (Body integrity identity disorder.) An otherwise sane and rational individual who FEELS a strong and specific desire for the amputation their healthy limb or limbs.

Should they act on these feelings? Or does the truth of dealing with a psychological disorder matter?

Proverbs 18:19.
People fear the truth because they fear change, vulnerability, etc. In a perfect world, people would have no ego. That is not the world we live in. Should the truth be spared for the sake of another’s sentiment? No. I don’t think making the gospel more palatable is inherently wrong.
Some sinners deal with enough shame. Do we have to drill into them once more? It is the truth to tell an alcoholic they have an issue. Do expect them to resist, run away from the truth even if logically that is what is best. They are in a very vulnerable state, no one likes to be under the microscope.
A lot of people love to tell others what is wrong with them or what they need to change. Not many are truly willing to help though.
I definitely think pointing out what is wrong with society, others, etc. can easily become a source of pride. Sure you may be very honest, but you can still be filled with arrogance or self righteousness.
The world is a difficult place at times.