Dishonest Apologetics

[anEvilAtheist]

The elaborate process is not the proof that it is a miracle. What the elaborate process does is rule out the possibility that what has occured is explanable by natural law and natural processes as verifiable by current scientific knowledge.

Okay, but the mere lack of a natural explanation provides no evidence whatsoever that it was miraculous. Back when we didn’t know why the sun moved across the sky, we had no natural explanation for it. But that didn’t provide any good evidence that it was the work of a god.

A miracle is simply something that defies the laws of nature.

But we do not know all the laws of nature yet. If you conclude anything that is currently inexplicable must be a miracle, then unless we have already discovered every single thing that could possibly be discovered, we have proof of “miracles”. However, miracles by this definition do not give us any reason at all to think that there is anything supernatural.

One of Padre Pio’s miracles was concerning a young girl born without pupils. Through his intercession the girl was able to see but still remained without pupils. She can see without the faculty of sight.

I’ve looked into this a little bit and have not found any good evidence. Lots of religions have legends. I am looking for what is true.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Wow! I have not read this post till Mary replied to it but what a beautiful presentation. Completely spot on.

Bravo Thing!

Actually, I don’t think it applies at all to my situation. I also don’t know what he means when he says that it “has never been successfully refuted”. Speculation about someone’s motives and reasons cannot be disproven. All I can do is say why I chose to come here. But if you think I am lying, I have no way of proving my internal state to you. And the assertion that the Catholic God will lead me to him cannot be disproven. But neither can the assertion that before I die, Zeus will reveal himself to me. So I agree that Thing’s argument cannot be “disproven”, but I do not think it is even close to being “spot on” (at least regarding my situation).

However, one thing that I think is interesting about it is that it shows how you guys view me.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TWB1621,

You are so right! And, if I may … let me add one more thought, as I piggy-back on your post:

Ah, but you see, there have been too many conditions satisfied, circumstances of human nature and reaction and individual documentations, both partial and non-partial sources to support there being historic and reliable to reason. Additionally, the Apostles could not have all had such dreams or visions at the same time. Those who were in the room together when Thomas was not present and on another occasion, those all together when Thomas was present. Thomas did not believe until our Lord physically confronted him. Others in their journey witnessed and communicated with Him, yet others who were alone and spoke with Him. At yet another time, groups such as the 500 others together witnessed Him also. These things if fraudulent would have been written historically as the scam that some tried to pull off. Others during those times would have known it to be false and quickly made a mockery of it all. Further, No man places himself in a position to die the horrid torturous deaths these men did for something they only wanted others to believe but did not know for truth themselves.

Even assuming that The Twelve were totally delusional and did in fact die “…horrid torturous deaths…” for a group hallucination or grand delusion - there is nothing out there that would explain the 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th… and nth generation of martyrs doing the same thing. Some group would have stood up somewhere along the line and said something like, “Hold on here. This is a silly delusion. Christ is not God. Let’s all go back to our homes and worship the Emperor, who obviously is god!” (The Roman Empire wasn’t too merciful on atheists, either - they were also denying that the Emperor was god! )

The only answer that holds water is that the Word of God took on flesh and came into the world to save us all from sin. Everything else simply fails logic, reason or the test of time - delusional thinking does not last this long.

God bless

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Dear Honest Atheist!

I have been reading your exchanges with Benedictus and I can see that they will lead nowhere. Why? because of Faith and that is something we cannot give you. It is between you and God.

I spoke of miracles but you are cynical and you do come up with yes but, yes but…… Again, to believe is a choice. I am always skeptical of these things. There was a report of a person here who claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary and lots of people made tracks to her place and prayed with her. Not me! Until the Church researches this thoroughly and declares it authentic I just carry on with my life. I don’t need this. I told you that I see miracles around me and in my life all the time. However, the miracles of Lourdes and other sites which have been approved by the Church, I accept. I don’t expect you to do so, so I will not pursue this further because it is useless.

Yes, but I think “yes, but” can be a valid response. If I were to name 100 things that I think are contradictions in the Bible, you could respond to each by saying “yes but” this is what the passage really means. If I were to describe many specific types of suffering and say why I think they are incompatible with an omnibenevolent God, you can respond to each by saying “yes but” maybe there’s some other explanation. My point is that for either position, you can present a list of arguments against the other position. Responding to all of them might require a long list of “yes buts”, but the “yes buts” might be valid. Merely presenting a large number of arguments does not mean that your position is correct. I actually think that the number of miracle claims in this world is about what I would expect given human psychology, if there is not God. I think it would be very presumptuous to assume that our knowledge is so perfect that we know why every single thing that ever happened, happened. I recognize that there are some events whose cause we can only guess at. But I do not see these as any evidence of a God (unless we had strong evidence that they could not have happened without a god). I do think my position is a very reasonable one, but you’re probably right that the current evidence is not strong enough to persuade me.

I told you my husband is a convert from atheism. So I have witnessed a miracle believe me. I remember his reflections * “These apostles were a bunch of fishermen, peasants, unsophisticated and look at Peter how he always had his foot in his mouth!!..Yet look how he answered Jesus in Matt 16:16 and then look how the apostles were transformed at Pentecost!! The apostles went on to spread the good news and demonstrated such wisdom! Later they were prepared to die for their beliefs. They could not be moved. Not only did they die martyrs but Peter and all (or nearly all) the popes for the first 300 years were also martyred. The apostles had direct contact with Jesus. They were witnesses to his life and death. They established Jesus’ Church and 2000 years later the Church continues to grow.” *This reinforced his belief but it was all those books on the universe etc which did it. Oh that and the Holy Spirit of course. So, today as we pray together and go to daily Mass I often reflect on the miracle of it all.

Much of that is Catholic belief, but there is not good evidence for it. I do not assume that any of the supernatural stories presented by religions are true unless I have a reason to. I don’t know if books on the universe would do it for me. Based on my investigation of the current state of cosmology, it seems extremely compatible with atheism.

It is really funny how Jesus always chooses the young, or the vulnerable or the simple to do his work!

Believe me I did not try to influence him. I prayed. It took him about 11 years from the time he read Genesis and the Big Bang. I used to think that if there was one person on this earth who would never convert, it was him. Now as we go into our golden years I am so grateful because he is more a companion than before because we share so much. We are very close, always have been, but it is our Faith which has given our relationship even more depth.

I definitely see how sharing the same faith would strengthen the relationship. I just think it would be hard if one partner thought the other partner’s deeply held beliefs were mere superstition. I wonder if I would be able to be in a relationship with someone whose views on religion were so different than my own (without constantly butting heads over religion).

By the way, this evening we have been invited by the couple I mentioned before where the husband is atheist yet is a strong defender of the Catholic Church. He takes care of the Parish website. There will be Mass at their home and afterwards we will have dinner. Everyone is bringing something. I don’t talk to him about these things. I have once asked him when he was going to make his first Holy Communion though!!

Haha, yeah who knows. If your husband converted, maybe he will too. I could see you being very persuasive.

 

[Cinette]

Actually, I don’t think it applies at all to my situation. I also don’t know what he means when he says that it “has never been successfully refuted”. Speculation about someone’s motives and reasons cannot be disproven. All I can do is say why I chose to come here. But if you think I am lying, I have no way of proving my internal state to you. And the assertion that the Catholic God will lead me to him cannot be disproven. But neither can the assertion that before I die, Zeus will reveal himself to me. So I agree that Thing’s argument cannot be “disproven”, but I do not think it is even close to being “spot on” (at least regarding my situation).

However, one thing that I think is interesting about it is that it shows how you guys view me.

I saw a documentary once about a woman who was in leg irons. She could drive (specially adapted car) and her condition was worsening. (I am squeezing my brain to remember the details!) One day as she arrived at her work she felt a burning feeling in her legs. Later when she arrived home she was able to run up the stairs. The Doctors were amazed and her family all rejoiced. She had been praying for a miracle or rather a healing I would say. Anyway, to this day her leg irons stand in a corner of the entrance hall of her home as a reminder. I suppose that cannot be called a miracle?

You say that “it shows how you guys view me”. Firstly, I take exception to be called a guy. I love being a woman! As for you - you know how I feel. I even changed your name to Honest Atheist! I must say though that I regret that you appear to be a little bland, no romance, no dreams, no humour! (ouch! I am provoking a reaction! LOL!) Actually I wouldn’t be surprised if Benedictus agrees with me. She is also not a guy you know!

Cinette:yup::yup::extrahappy:

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Hi, TWB1621,

You are so right! And, if I may … let me add one more thought, as I piggy-back on your post:

Even assuming that The Twelve were totally delusional and did in fact die “…horrid torturous deaths…” for a group hallucination or grand delusion - there is nothing out there that would explain the 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th… and nth generation of martyrs doing the same thing. Some group would have stood up somewhere along the line and said something like, “Hold on here. This is a silly delusion. Christ is not God. Let’s all go back to our homes and worship the Emperor, who obviously is god!” (The Roman Empire wasn’t too merciful on atheists, either - they were also denying that the Emperor was god! )

The only answer that holds water is that the Word of God took on flesh and came into the world to save us all from sin. Everything else simply fails logic, reason or the test of time - delusional thinking does not last this long.

God bless

First of all, my position is not that there was any kind of “group hallucination or grand delusion”. I think there are far more likely explanations, one of which I have frequently elaborated upon.

And I think it is actually very easy to explain the 2nd-nth generation martyrs. They had no way to verify that the claims being made were correct. There are tons of examples of people being willing to die for their religious beliefs. Look at terrorist bombings such as 9/11. Look at Heaven’s Gate. Just because you believe something so strongly that you would be willing to die for it does not mean it’s true. Even in cases where there was some evidence against the veracity of a religion, such as Joseph Smith’s record of perpetrating scams, it does not prevent people from becoming extremely devoted followers of that religion.

 

[Cinette]

Yes, but I think “yes, but” can be a valid response. If I were to name 100 things that I think are contradictions in the Bible, you could respond to each by saying “yes but” this is what the passage really means. If I were to describe many specific types of suffering and say why I think they are incompatible with an omnibenevolent God, you can respond to each by saying “yes but” maybe there’s some other explanation. My point is that for either position, you can present a list of arguments against the other position. Responding to all of them might require a long list of “yes buts”, but the “yes buts” might be valid. OK! you made your point very well - I agree! Merely presenting a large number of arguments does not mean that your position is correct. I actually think that the number of miracle claims in this world is about what I would expect given human psychology, if there is not God. I think it would be very presumptuous to assume that our knowledge is so perfect that we know why every single thing that ever happened, happened. I recognize that there are some events whose cause we can only guess at. But I do not see these as any evidence of a God (unless we had strong evidence that they could not have happened without a god). I do think my position is a very reasonable one, but you’re probably right that the current evidence is not strong enough to persuade me.

Much of that is Catholic belief, but there is not good evidence for it. I do not assume that any of the supernatural stories presented by religions are true unless I have a reason to. I don’t know if books on the universe would do it for me. Based on my investigation of the current state of cosmology, it seems extremely compatible with atheism.I’ll tell you again Honest Atheist - you will not be convinced by anything of this world. God will do it in his own time. You will experience something quite simple, a kiss?, a bash on the head? a squirt? a dream? who knows? But IT WILL HAPPEN - of that I am CONVINCED! ABSOLUTELY!

I definitely see how sharing the same faith would strengthen the relationship. I just think it would be hard if one partner thought the other partner’s deeply held beliefs were mere superstition. I wonder if I would be able to be in a relationship with someone whose views on religion were so different thanfrom - different from my own (without constantly butting heads over religion).(I learned to speak Portuguese and French is my language. Anyway as you probably know all nouns are classified masculine and feminine. The problem is the Port and the French do not always agree and that gets me mixed up as you can imagine. I also make some mistakes with the verbs sometimes. My husband is constantly correcting me and I believe that even if I made a grammatical error on my death bed he would correct me! ) I now find myself correcting people often. I notice the errors on CAF. (your instead of you’re, affect instead of effect, complement instead of complicent etc. So forgive me I just had to correct you because this is a mistake Americans make all the time. LOL!

Haha, yeah who knows. If your husband converted, maybe he will too. I could see you being very persuasive. If I were I would be rich!

Cheers
Cinette

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I saw a documentary once about a woman who was in leg irons. She could drive (specially adapted car) and her condition was worsening. (I am squeezing my brain to remember the details!) One day as she arrived at her work she felt a burning feeling in her legs. Later when she arrived home she was able to run up the stairs. The Doctors were amazed and her family all rejoiced. She had been praying for a miracle or rather a healing I would say. Anyway, to this day her leg irons stand in a corner of the entrance hall of her home as a reminder. I suppose that cannot be called a miracle?

I’d need to know more about it and I don’t know if something like that is unprecedented for whatever condition she had. But unless it’s something that clearly is impossible naturally (such as regrowing a leg in a matter of seconds), I think it is more likely that we don’t know enough about medicine to say what the cause is, than that it was a miracle.

You say that “it shows how you guys view me”. Firstly, I take exception to be called a guy. I love being a woman!

Maybe it’s just an American thing. People seem to use ‘guys’ a lot to refer to people of both genders.

As for you - you know how I feel. I even changed your name to Honest Atheist! I must say though that I regret that you appear to be a little bland, no romance, no dreams, no humour! (ouch! I am provoking a reaction! LOL!) Actually I wouldn’t be surprised if Benedictus agrees with me. She is also not a guy you know!

Cinette:yup::yup::extrahappy:

Yeah, I wasn’t saying that you and everyone else saw me the same way, or in a negative light. I was just trying to say that it made me realize that many people on here might see me posting here as being a sign that God was using CAF to drive me closer to him. I disagree with that view of course. But I guess I still prefer people view me that way than view me as an agent of Satan (as one person seemed to think).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Surfmeister,

I have just joined the thread and have been reading your posts with genuine interest…

What do you mean Sartre acknowledged God at the end of his life?
“Sartre’s atheism was foundational for his style of existentialist philosophy. In March 1980, about a month before his death, he was interviewed by his assistant, Benny Lévy, and within these interviews he expressed his interest in Judaism which was inspired by Levy’s renewed interest in the faith. Through Sartre’s study of Jewish history he became particularly interested in the messianic idea of the faith. Some people apparently took this to indicate a deathbed conversion; however, the text of the interviews makes it clear that he did not consider himself a Jew, and was interested in the ethical and “metaphysical character” of the Jewish religion, while continuing to reject the idea of an existing God.”
False deathbed conversion stories are a fine example of dishonest apologetics.

As I see it, there are enough real stories out there about genuine conversions so as to totally dismiss this ‘dishonest apologietics’ fantasy topic fueled by those who are filled by cynical and despairing views of reality.

When I look at history and see how man was before Christ came into history - and then look at the Twelve ‘clunkers’ He chose - with the biggest ‘clunker’ being Peter. And then what happened during His three year Public Life - and then His horrible death - and how these Apostles fled and coward in locked rooms. This is a terrible story that is obviously filled with death and despair! And, even the initial announcement of Christ rising from the dead is greeted with disbelief by the Apostles. Wow - this is a hard audience! Then there are all of these recorded appearances and then Pentecost where the Catholic Church breaks out of its ‘shell’ and soars throughout all of the world sprading the message of salvation through Christ. You just can not explain transformations like this WITHOUT God.

Now, tell me… about the great athetists of the ancient and modern world, you know, those who changed history by their penetrating logic that everything we see before us ‘just happened’, those who brought mankind out of darkness by their insights into nothingness, those who actually rose from the dead to prove there IS NO GOD! Please, tell me … because, I would hate to think of you and the others having nothing in your hands when you look over your life when your end finally comes. Tell us all, please… and do so in the context of why you are posting on CAF.

When your last moment on earth arrives and you are faced with the unmistakable reality of death - your own personal death - you will be confronted with two distinct possibilities about God: He either exists or He doesn’t. Now, that may sound like a coin-flip or a 50:50 proposition - but, hold on just a moment; it isn’t. Let’s see …

If you have lived your life as though there is no God and, it turns out, that there isn’t - hey, you were right! And, yours is the inheritance of nothingness and the reward of oblivion. You obviously can’t get any better then that, right?! But, if there is a God and you have lived your life like there wasn’t a God … how do you think the God - Who actually exists is going to respond to this? Do you stand with your hands at your sides looking down at the tops of your feet claiming no one told you, or there was not enough prooof, or you had not yet finished doing the necessary research? That is truly a tough situation to be in - and, one you are willing to choose. The penalties are quite harsh for such a prideful blunder. Now, if you do believe in God and act as though God has given us rules of conduct (and believing in His Son should top the list) and you behave in this manner - His Word tells us about the Promise of Life Eternal with God. So, the way I see it, there two ways to lose (no God, live like you want and nothing afterwards or yes God, live like you want and hell afterwards) and one way to win (yes God, live like He told us and heaven afterwards). Even playing the odds tells you that yours is truly a losing proposition.

The choice is yours.

God bless

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Cinette; 5308016:

I’ll tell you again Honest Atheist - you will not be convinced by anything of this world. God will do it in his own time. You will experience something quite simple, a kiss?, a bash on the head? a squirt? a dream? who knows? But IT WILL HAPPEN - of that I am CONVINCED! ABSOLUTELY!

Hopefully it’s not a bash on the head.
Cinette; 5308016:

from - different from
(I learned to speak Portuguese and French is my language. Anyway as you probably know all nouns are classified masculine and feminine. The problem is the Port and the French do not always agree and that gets me mixed up as you can imagine. I also make some mistakes with the verbs sometimes. My husband is constantly correcting me and I believe that even if I made a grammatical error on my death bed he would correct me! ) I now find myself correcting people often. I notice the errors on CAF. (your instead of you’re, affect instead of effect, complement instead of complicent etc. So forgive me I just had to correct you because this is a mistake Americans make all the time. LOL!

No problem, I notice all those errors too when reading people’s posts. I think I’m usually pretty good, but it’s hard to be perfect when you post a lot. I suspect that I probably make that “different from” mistake a lot though.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

OK. Then let’s just say that the scriptures first give the definition of God and who and what He is, and hence they must be considered as the first scientific text on the matter. (btw I am a scientist (physics) )

The scriptures and the saints specifically teach the God is Light and God is Love.

It can be shown clearly that there is more evidence that Light is conscious and perhaps even consciousness itself, than otherwise. Light pervades the universe, is omniscient and omnipresent.

I haven’t seen any of this evidence. I’d be interested in taking a look at it.

A simple thought experiment can prove (to yourself) that one cannot be conscious without light.

What’s the thought experiment?

In fact Light demonstrates the property of “knowing” what happens in multiple frames of reference (at the same time!).

Jesus even says He is the Light of the World. Therefore, the first treatise on modern cosmology actually stems from ancient theistic thought.

God is Light.

So the burden is on the atheist, as they must prove God is not Light since we claim first that it is, and secondly that Light is not conscious, which we claim it is, and thirdly that your consciousness and very existence is independent of Light.

If you can provide evidence of some of the stuff you said earlier then I can try to evaluate it, but if you’re just making an unsupported assertion, the burden of proof is not on me.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, EvilAtheist,

I have been reading your posts with genuine interest, too…

I’d need to know more about it and I don’t know if something like that is unprecedented for whatever condition she had. But unless it’s something that clearly is impossible naturally (such as regrowing a leg in a matter of seconds), I think it is more likely that we don’t know enough about medicine to say what the cause is, than that it was a miracle.

There is nothing soooooooooooooo bad as ‘fabricated’ or phony miracles, eh? You know that guy who claims to have physical defect, goes up to the Healer - and BAM! The man is jumping around because he is healed. These little bits of fraud never get very far. But, you know, I have read some intersting stories that I’d like to share with you…

Here are 11 miracles of healing that show some intersting characteristics. Some were disputed by the Pharisees right then and there when they happened in front of their eyes! Others were disputed by claims that the healed person only looked like the sick person and others were simply not disputed (e.g., raising Lazarus - no one doubted Lazarus was dead and in the tomb by Day Three, now he is obviously alive and standing before Christ and the crowd trying to get out of his wrappings!)

11 Miracles of Healing

1.) Official’s son John 4:46-54
2.) Possessed man Mark 1:21-27 Luke 4:33-37
3.) Leper Matt 8:1-4 Mark 1:40-45 Luke 5:12-15
4.) Paralytic Matt 9:1-8 Mark 2:1-12 Luke 5:18-26
5.) Withered hand Matt 12:9-13 Mark 3:1-6 Luke 6:6-11
6.) Centurion’s son Matt 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10
7.) Widow’s son Luke 7:11-17
8.) Unclean woman Matt 9:20-22 Mark 5:24-34 Luke8:49-56
9.) 2 blind men Matt 9:27-31
10.) Lazarus raised John 11:1-45
11.)Ten Lepers Luke 17:11-19

These recorded events all transcend nature, were seen by many and those that were openly disputed were essentially resolved in Christ’s favor AND NONE can be replicated by today’s medical technology… Even the Pharisees were perplexed by the obvious power of Christ but could not get over the fact that He ‘broke the Sabbath’…at least according to how they defined it (there was no law prohibiting miracle healing on the Sabbath).

These, and other similar stories, have withstood the test of time…and, are conveniently listed in the same Book!

I was just trying to say that it made me realize that many people on here might see me posting here as being a sign that God was using CAF to drive me closer to him. I disagree with that view of course. But I guess I still prefer people view me that way than view me as an agent of Satan (as one person seemed to think).

Now, “Agent of Satan” is a bit strong - uses an apparent lofty (somehow ‘lowly’ does not seem to fit!) official designation - and, probably goes against the CAF policy of prohibiting commercial endorsements… To the best of my knowledge, Satan has dispensed all the titles he is going to issue - and they all went to the ill-advised angels that followed him into the pit. (Eph 6:12) None went to human beings … there are no ‘agents’. If there is one thing I have a problem with is grandstanding on titles!

But, there are a lot of folks who apparently do not realize that by refusing to honor the Creator, they are debasing themselves by slaving for another creature. Rather then rejoice in the Salvation won for us by Christ’s Suffering, Death and Resurrection - they would rather work for something far less, the ‘retirement plan’ is hell and the wages of sin is still death (Rom 6:23).

God bless

/////////////

I’d need to know more about it and I don’t know if something like that is unprecedented for whatever condition she had. But unless it’s something that clearly is impossible naturally (such as regrowing a leg in a matter of seconds), I think it is more likely that we don’t know enough about medicine to say what the cause is, than that it was a miracle.

Maybe it’s just an American thing. People seem to use ‘guys’ a lot to refer to people of both genders.

Yeah, I wasn’t saying that you and everyone else saw me the same way, or in a negative light. I was just trying to say that it made me realize that many people on here might see me posting here as being a sign that God was using CAF to drive me closer to him. I disagree with that view of course. But I guess I still prefer people view me that way than view me as an agent of Satan (as one person seemed to think).

 

[codebilly]

I haven’t seen any of this evidence. I’d be interested in taking a look at it. What’s the thought experiment? If you can provide evidence of some of the stuff you said earlier then I can try to evaluate it, but if you’re just making an unsupported assertion, the burden of proof is not on me.

I haven’t seen any of this evidence. I’d be interested in taking a look at it. What’s the thought experiment?
If you can provide evidence of some of the stuff you said earlier then I can try to evaluate it, but if you’re just making an unsupported assertion, the burden of proof is not on me.

Here ya’ go:

**God as Light
**

I am the light of the world‘ - John 9:5

‘This then is the message which we have heard of him and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all’. - 1 John 1:5.

In Thy light we shall see light. - Ps.36:10

He is light the most pure and inaccessible for most creatures, light which is inside everything and outside everything, which is all beauty and higher than all beauty, which illumines the intellect’ - St Gregory Nazianzen, Disc.2,76,3-8; SC 247,188

see this article for more details:
en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_5_7

Therefore, the philosophy of God is Light is proof that God exists and God is real, because it is known to all creatures that Light (en masse) exists, even though we can’t contain it or touch it. It is also interesting to note that Light is the Lord of Time. There is no time without the existence of light. The Lord of Time was worshipped by the Jews.

It is a know historical fact that the Romans believed the Jews to be worshippers of Saturn (Kronos) and there is quite a lot of evidence to back this up.

God is Light. As for the thought experiment, we have described how you can realize the Truth.

Confess your sins, receive the baptism, take the instruction of the spiritual masters, and become a disciple of the Embodiment of the Light of this world and every world of every cosmic manifestation, of the One Who Is, the Lord over material nature.

Who in His great mercy, steps into time and reveals His mastery over space and time, and greater, whose great light penetrates the recesses of the heart and illumines consciousness.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Hi, EvilAtheist,

I have been reading your posts with genuine interest, too…

There is nothing soooooooooooooo bad as ‘fabricated’ or phony miracles, eh? You know that guy who claims to have physical defect, goes up to the Healer - and BAM! The man is jumping around because he is healed. These little bits of fraud never get very far. But, you know, I have read some intersting stories that I’d like to share with you…

Here are 11 miracles of healing that show some intersting characteristics. Some were disputed by the Pharisees right then and there when they happened in front of their eyes! Others were disputed by claims that the healed person only looked like the sick person and others were simply not disputed (e.g., raising Lazarus - no one doubted Lazarus was dead and in the tomb by Day Three, now he is obviously alive and standing before Christ and the crowd trying to get out of his wrappings!)

11 Miracles of Healing

1.) Official’s son John 4:46-54
2.) Possessed man Mark 1:21-27 Luke 4:33-37
3.) Leper Matt 8:1-4 Mark 1:40-45 Luke 5:12-15
4.) Paralytic Matt 9:1-8 Mark 2:1-12 Luke 5:18-26
5.) Withered hand Matt 12:9-13 Mark 3:1-6 Luke 6:6-11
6.) Centurion’s son Matt 8:5-13 Luke 7:1-10
7.) Widow’s son Luke 7:11-17
8.) Unclean woman Matt 9:20-22 Mark 5:24-34 Luke8:49-56
9.) 2 blind men Matt 9:27-31
10.) Lazarus raised John 11:1-45
11.)Ten Lepers Luke 17:11-19

These recorded events all transcend nature, were seen by many and those that were openly disputed were essentially resolved in Christ’s favor AND NONE can be replicated by today’s medical technology… Even the Pharisees were perplexed by the obvious power of Christ but could not get over the fact that He ‘broke the Sabbath’…at least according to how they defined it (there was no law prohibiting miracle healing on the Sabbath).

These, and other similar stories, have withstood the test of time…and, are conveniently listed in the same Book!

The only problem I have with those is that I do not think that everything the Bible says is true. I think the Bible was most likely based on some historical facts, but I think that as the story of Jesus got told and retold, people could have added to it. Also, there is not good evidence that any of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. If someone is merely recording a legend that they heard, there is a good chance that a lot of what they heard will be wrong. So I agree with you that those would be some pretty incredible feats, but I just don’t think there’s good reason to believe that they are true. Merely because a person, who is not a witness themselves, claims that there were witnesses, doesn’t prove that there were. Merely because the Koran claims that people witnessed Muhammad ascend into heaven doesn’t prove that they did.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Here ya’ go:

**God as Light
**

I am the light of the world‘ - John 9:5

‘This then is the message which we have heard of him and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all’. - 1 John 1:5.

In Thy light we shall see light. - Ps.36:10

**He is light the most pure and inaccessible for most creatures, light which is inside everything and outside everything, which is all beauty and higher than all beauty, which illumines the intellect’ - St Gregory Nazianzen, Disc.2,76,3-8; SC 247,188

see this article for more details:
en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_5_7

Therefore, the philosophy of God is Light is proof that God exists and God is real, because it is known to all creatures that Light (en masse) exists, even though we can’t contain it or touch it. It is also interesting to note that Light is the Lord of Time. There is no time without the existence of light. The Lord of Time was worshipped by the Jews.

It is a know historical fact that the Romans believed the Jews to be worshippers of Saturn (Kronos) and there is quite a lot of evidence to back this up.

If you define God as light, then I believe in God. However, I see no reason to think that light has any of the supernatural properties that are ascribed to God.

God is Light. As for the thought experiment, we have described how you can realize the Truth.

Confess your sins, receive the baptism, take the instruction of the spiritual masters, and become a disciple of the Embodiment of the Light of this world and every world of every cosmic manifestation, of the One Who Is, the Lord over material nature.

Who in His great mercy, steps into time and reveals His mastery over space and time, and greater, whose great light penetrates the recesses of the heart and illumines consciousness.

But if I have no reason to think that Catholicism is true, why would I go through all of that? And why should I choose Catholicism. Maybe I should try immersing myself in Islam for a while and see if that feels true. I could spend my whole life trying out different churches, but I think it would be a waste of time. Especially since the evidence I have seen makes it seem like it is incredibly unlikely that the God of Catholicism exists (as well as many other gods).

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I’m finally mostly caught up, so I thought I’d weigh in on the Einstein debate. It seems to have gotten a little heated. Hopefully both sides can be a bit more charitable.

I think Surfmeister raised an important point. I don’t know why Einstein was brought up in the first place, so I won’t try to guess at the motives. However, it seems like sometimes when people bring up Einstein, they are trying to imply “So do you think you’re smarter than Einstein?”. I strongly oppose tactics like that (though I’m not claiming that that was what you “guys” were trying to do).

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I am just making an observation that despite Einstein being a brilliant scientist (so would more lilkely be inclined to atheism and it’s consequent demands for physical proofs) , it is quite heartwarming that he believes in God.

After reading the initial posts from you and Cinette, it sounded more like you were saying that here is this brilliant man whose research led him to the conclusion that there is a God, instead of saying that here is this one physicist who actually believes in God (unlike the overwhelming majority of them).

There will always be the occasional scientist who believes in God, but of those who are at the forefront of research, very few actually believe. In a 1996 study of top scientists, only 7% believed in a personal God (Larson and Witham 1998, ”Scientists Still Reject God” Nature 394). So if you think that the expertise of top scientists like Einstein offers them some insight into the question of whether God exists, this is strong evidence against the existence of God.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, EvilAtheist,

Based on your reasoning listed below, you may want to consider changing your ‘handle’ to “LazyAtheist”. I truly had expected better from you - honest. Anyone fixing to enter into all eternity with this line of reasoning … well, buddy, you certainly deserve everything you get. Let’s see how you logic holds up with just the smallest amount of work… but, first, may I recommend that you read the following four items first to get a better understanding of the Bible you are intent on criticizing:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fr.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0805fea4.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9505fea1.asp

catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp

The only problem I have with those is that I do not think that everything the Bible says is true.

Wow! You will really have to do much better then this. Without putting too fine a point on this: who are you? What are your credentials? I provide you with data that is over 2,000 years old (NT material) and has been scrutinized by scholars and skeptics from the very beginning. Do you honestly think that if this was a hoax it would still be in existence? Get serious. There is more evidence to support that Christ worked miracles then there is for Caesar having fought in Gaul!

Simply stated: put up or shut up. Identify the lies - and move forward in your disbelif. Fail to honestly back up your statement, then move forward toward belief.

I think the Bible was most likely based on some historical facts, but I think that as the story of Jesus got told and retold, people could have added to it.

Your entire arguments rests on the premisis, “…could have added to it”? So, what was added? Do you have any data to back up this truly lame statement? Really, this is a major issue for you to think about: there have been some really determined people that have set out to prove the entire story of God a myth. Where are they now? Try looking on he dust heap of history along with other discarded theories.

Also, there is not good evidence that any of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. If someone is merely recording a legend that they heard, there is a good chance that a lot of what they heard will be wrong.

Hmmmm… Matthew and John were Apostles they were with Jesus from the beginning of His Public Life. Mark and Luke were not Apostles, but were eye witnesses to the events they recorded. None of these men were ‘court reporters’ and carried around scrolls and ink writing down every word as Jesus said them. These accounts were first writtn many years removed from Pentecost. Now, when there is an accident, the police look for witnesses and have them write down their story without consulting with one another. The police then compare the written accounts. A dead give-away is when all the stories are in 100% agreement with one another. There are all kinds of little divergences between the writers in insignificant details - but, the major details: Jesus is God, proclaimed the message of salvation, performed many miracles, identified that He was the fulfillment of prophecy, suffered and died for our sins, and rose from the dead on His Own Power are all in agreement.

So I agree with you that those would be some pretty incredible feats, but I just don’t think there’s good reason to believe that they are true.

Looks like you are back to just being lazy again… “but I just don’t think…” pretty much catches the flavor of what you are presenting here. No data, no real reason … just… this. This is truly sad for a grown person to present this as an argument before other adults.

Merely because a person, who is not a witness themselves, claims that there were witnesses, doesn’t prove that there were. Merely because the Koran claims that people witnessed Muhammad ascend into heaven doesn’t prove that they did.

You are so right! Merely claiming something does not make it so. But, as I previously told you, the NT was written by eye-witnesses. Paul SAW CHRIST on the road to Damascus. The other writers all moved about with Christ and witnessed His miracles. The issue before us is about the Bible - and not the Koran. Let’s stay on topic.

God bless

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Hi, EvilAtheist,

Based on your reasoning listed below, you may want to consider changing your ‘handle’ to “LazyAtheist”. I truly had expected better from you - honest. Anyone fixing to enter into all eternity with this line of reasoning … well, buddy, you certainly deserve everything you get. Let’s see how you logic holds up with just the smallest amount of work… but, first, may I recommend that you read the following four items first to get a better understanding of the Bible you are intent on criticizing:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fr.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0805fea4.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9505fea1.asp

catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp

Wow! You will really have to do much better then this. Without putting too fine a point on this: who are you? What are your credentials? I provide you with data that is over 2,000 years old (NT material) and has been scrutinized by scholars and skeptics from the very beginning. Do you honestly think that if this was a hoax it would still be in existence? Get serious. There is more evidence to support that Christ worked miracles then there is for Caesar having fought in Gaul!

Simply stated: put up or shut up. Identify the lies - and move forward in your disbelif. Fail to honestly back up your statement, then move forward toward belief.

Your entire arguments rests on the premisis, “…could have added to it”? So, what was added? Do you have any data to back up this truly lame statement? Really, this is a major issue for you to think about: there have been some really determined people that have set out to prove the entire story of God a myth. Where are they now? Try looking on he dust heap of history along with other discarded theories.

Hmmmm… Matthew and John were Apostles they were with Jesus from the beginning of His Public Life. Mark and Luke were not Apostles, but were eye witnesses to the events they recorded. None of these men were ‘court reporters’ and carried around scrolls and ink writing down every word as Jesus said them. These accounts were first writtn many years removed from Pentecost. Now, when there is an accident, the police look for witnesses and have them write down their story without consulting with one another. The police then compare the written accounts. A dead give-away is when all the stories are in 100% agreement with one another. There are all kinds of little divergences between the writers in insignificant details - but, the major details: Jesus is God, proclaimed the message of salvation, performed many miracles, identified that He was the fulfillment of prophecy, suffered and died for our sins, and rose from the dead on His Own Power are all in agreement.

Looks like you are back to just being lazy again… “but I just don’t think…” pretty much catches the flavor of what you are presenting here. No data, no real reason … just… this. This is truly sad for a grown person to present this as an argument before other adults.

You are so right! Merely claiming something does not make it so. But, as I previously told you, the NT was written by eye-witnesses. Paul SAW CHRIST on the road to Damascus. The other writers all moved about with Christ and witnessed His miracles. The issue before us is about the Bible - and not the Koran. Let’s stay on topic.

God bless

I completely disagree with you, but I will read the articles you linked to before replying further. For now, I will just say that I do not think I was lazy in any way. You made a claim that I should believe for certain reasons and did not adequately support them. I focus on analyzing the arguments that are presented. I don’t think it would make sense to give a thorough critique of the reliability of the Bible every single time it is brought up.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Judge not! We can never know what actually takes place at the moment of death. As Christians we can only hope that a person who had led a life separated from God will turn to God at the end because there is much at stake.

You cannot discount or reject or ignore death-bed conversions and brush them off. It is not your place to do so. You cannot say if and when a person was lucid. You can only hope.

I agree. Deathbed conversions definitely can take place and should not be brushed off as definitely false. I think in most cases, there is not enough evidence to say that a conversion definitively did, or did not, take place. Also, it is theoretically possible that God could reveal himself in that final fraction of a second (though if God does this, it raises plenty of other questions).