Dishonest Apologetics

[anEvilAtheist]

Hi, Evilatheist,

First, let me apologize for the incivilities I am guilty of. Both my words and tone were inappropriate.

Don’t worry about it. We all have times where we say things we later regret.

Maybe developing one idea at a time would be a better approach.

What would you consider sufficient evidence about miracles?

God bless

This is actually quite a difficult question.

I guess it depends on one’s epistemological position. If you believe that there is definitely nothing supernatural, then no evidence could convince you. It’s always possible that the “miracle” has a natural explanation and we just don’t know what it is. This position leads some atheists to conclude that even if you could prove that Jesus rose from the dead, this would not be evidence that Jesus was supernatural because he could merely have been an abnormally talented human. I reject this because the belief that there is nothing outside of the natural world is a belief that is merely based on the evidence we’ve seen so far. If something happens that has no plausible natural explanation and we should have an explanation (for example, I do not think that the sun moving across the sky was a miracle back when we had little astronomical knowledge) I would say that it is probably a miracle. Since I have no evidence of anything supernatural and have heard of tons of cases where something once thought to be supernatural was later shown to have a natural cause, I would need strong evidence that the event could not realistically have had a natural cause in order to believe that it was a miracle.

I realize this is imprecise, but it’s hard to define exactly how much evidence I would need. Maybe it would help if I gave a couple examples of things that I would consider good evidence of a miracle. Now it’s certainly possible that they would have a natural cause, but the likelihood of that seems so low that I think they would be more likely to have a supernatural cause. If someone could demonstrate the ability to teleport themselves, I would believe that some kind of supernatural miracle took place. Of course I’d need to make sure that there wasn’t some newly invented teleportation machine that they were using, and that it was not merely a magic trick. But if I had my arms wrapped around someone and they teleported away, I would see that as miraculous.

Another thing I would see as a supernatural miracle would be if God had appeared in the clouds and spoken a message to the entire world, speaking to everyone in their own language. If Native Americans, Europeans, Africans, Indigenous Australians, and others all had a story where God had spoken this specific message to them in the year 1 A.D., I would consider this miraculous. Now I guess it’s possible that there was a psychological cause, but it just seems implausible that all their stories would have God saying the exact same thing in the exact same year.

Maybe my perspective leaves me too vulnerable to believe that something is supernatural when it isn’t, but since we cannot know that there is nothing supernatural, I think it’s good to keep an open mind.

 

[Surfmeister]

Another thing I would see as a supernatural miracle would be if God had appeared in the clouds and spoken a message to the entire world, speaking to everyone in their own language. If Native Americans, Europeans, Africans, Indigenous Australians, and others all had a story where God had spoken this specific message to them in the year 1 A.D., I would consider this miraculous. Now I guess it’s possible that there was a psychological cause, but it just seems implausible that all their stories would have God saying the exact same thing in the exact same year.

This reminds me of the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, where people around the world started playing the same musical notes, and the notes turned out to be a signal/communication to an alien vessel. I’d have to include aliens with natural abilities superior to our own as a cause of the God in the clouds ‘miracle’. I don’t really think that aliens from another planet would visit Earth (why bother to make such a long trip just for a look around!), unless Earth is the Niagara Falls honeymoon spot of the galaxy!

 

[Surfmeister]

Cinette,
You said:
"When I speak of God I mean God with a capital G and that means the following:

• Almighty God of the Christians
• The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - the God of the Jewish Faith
• The God of the Muslim Faith"

Einstein did not believe in that God, so it unfair to claim that he did.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette,
You said:
"When I speak of God I mean God with a capital G and that means the following:

• Almighty God of the Christians
• The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - the God of the Jewish Faith
• The God of the Muslim Faith"

Einstein did not believe in that God, so it unfair to claim that he did.

Hi Surfmeister!

There is only one God and he is the Creator of all things. If Einstein acknowledged the existence of God or Creator then you can be sure he was referring to the one God.

All the mythical gods that some people believe in would not attract someone like Einstein.

I think one can reach a logical conclusion on that surely.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

This reminds me of the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, where people around the world started playing the same musical notes, and the notes turned out to be a signal/communication to an alien vessel. I’d have to include aliens with natural abilities superior to our own as a cause of the God in the clouds ‘miracle’. I don’t really think that aliens from another planet would visit Earth (why bother to make such a long trip just for a look around!), unless Earth is the Niagara Falls honeymoon spot of the galaxy!

That’s true. But should we definitely treat immensely powerful aliens differently than an immensely powerful God? If aliens will give us immortality if we follow the laws they give us, I don’t see why we should react differently than if a God would give us immortality.

 

[Cinette]

This reminds me of the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, where people around the world started playing the same musical notes, and the notes turned out to be a signal/communication to an alien vessel. I’d have to include aliens with natural abilities superior to our own as a cause of the God in the clouds ‘miracle’. I don’t really think that aliens from another planet would visit Earth (why bother to make such a long trip just for a look around!), unless Earth is the Niagara Falls honeymoon spot of the galaxy!

LOL! Talking of aliens and flying saucers I cannot accept these things. People have been “seeing” flying saucers and aliens (some even got married and bore children!!!LOL).

If there were such things as aliens from other planets surely they would have installed embassies in all the capitals of the world by now? LOL! I mean - people have been “seeing” them for such a long time!

Off topic!!!

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Hi Surfmeister!

There is only one God and he is the Creator of all things. If Einstein acknowledged the existence of God or Creator then you can be sure he was referring to the one God.

All the mythical gods that some people believe in would not attract someone like Einstein.

I think one can reach a logical conclusion on that surely.

Cinette, you really should look at more quotes from Einstein. He definitely did not believe in the God of Abraham. His exchange with Guy Raner makes this very clear, as do many other letters he wrote.

 

[tonsofquestions]

LOL! Talking of aliens and flying saucers I cannot accept these things. People have been “seeing” flying saucers and aliens (some even got married and bore children!!!LOL).
A virgin girl named Mary claimed she was “seeing” a messenger from God(and she even bore God a son!!!LOL)
If there were such things as aliens from other planets surely they would have installed embassies in all the capitals of the world by now? LOL! I mean - people have been “seeing” them for such a long time!
If there was such a thing as God, wouldn’t He have made himself known in all the capitals of the world by now? LOL! I mean, people have been “seeing” Him for such a long time!
Off topic!!!

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Hi, EvilAtheist,

Please, feel free to respond … had I known your interest in this subject, I would have addressed it to both of you…

I await your rebuttal… and, I am sure, so does Pascal!

God bless

Pascal’s wager assumes that the only possibilities are atheism and Catholicism. But it’s also possible that there’s a different God who rewards rationality and gives infinite happiness to those who do not worship a false God. There are also infinitely many other possible gods. So if you have no idea what God, if he even existed, would reward or punish, it’s irrational to make sacrifices that could just as easily hurt you as help you in the afterlife (if there is one). I believe it is very unlikely that there is a personal God, but even if there was, this fact alone would not be enough to make me behave any differently.

Also, I do not think I could force myself to believe something that I am pretty sure is not true. Even if someone offered me $1 trillion dollars, I do not think I could force myself to genuinely believe that invisible unicorns exist. I could say I believed in them, but an omniscient god could not be so easily fooled.

I have other arguments against Pascal’s wager, but I’ll keep it simple for now. I made this criticism of the wager in another thread and got into a discussion with VociMike about it. You might want to check out the discussion we had. I’d be interested in hearing why you think my criticisms don’t work.

 

[Surfmeister]

That’s true. But should we definitely treat immensely powerful aliens differently than an immensely powerful God? If aliens will give us immortality if we follow the laws they give us, I don’t see why we should react differently than if a God would give us immortality.

An excellent point. Is a God judged by the feats performed? Is the promise of immortality necessary for a God? Is the powerful act of creation enough to be considered Godlike?

I’m going back to science fiction. In the Star Trek Next Generation series, a being named Q has all the necessary qualities for a god…he could create, manipulate, was eternal…and demanded worship. And he wasn’t very nice or likable!

…off on a tangent…

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I know you are not making full use of your cognitive powers. Theistic philosophers point out the fact that there are 3 states of consciousness.

They are the waking, the dreaming, and the deep sleep. Further, that the sage, loving God with whole heart, mind, soul and strength are capable of merging all 3 states ( … Mother Teresa slept may 1 hour per day).

When you are able to merge all 3 states of your consciousness your self discipline and will, then you will be able to comment on our saints and church.

I think it’s unreasonable to say that only someone who merged their three states of consciousness can offer their opinion. I would wager that most Catholics do not think they have merged three states of consciousness. I also think that it is unreasonable to say that one has to try sincerely praying to a God before they can disbelieve in him. There are hundreds of different Gods that people believe in, and I bet you have never tried praying to most of them.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette, you really should look at more quotes from Einstein. He definitely did not believe in the God of Abraham. His exchange with Guy Raner makes this very clear, as do many other letters he wrote.

I quoted that statement from Einstein above (too lazy to go hunting for it now) - how would you then interpret it?

My husband has said thousands of times over the years that he did not believe in God - now he believes and must have said so a score of times. Does that mean that the fact that he said he did not believe a thousand times abrogate his declaration of belief 20 times?

Ever heard of Anthony Flew the famous Atheist (with a capital A) who now humbly believes also.

You know, when Thomas saw Jesus’ wounds he declared “My Lord and my God” and Jesus replied (I’m paraphrasing) “You have seen and believed - blessed are those who have not seen and believe”. You see, there is merit in Faith. For me I have Faith because I love, trust and believe in God.

I guess a modern person would prefer to challenge Jesus and ask Him to strip naked and would bring out a magnifying glass and taken a biopsy to determine DNA! Well, my friend I prefer it the other way. I SEE miracles around me all the time - I can see, hear, walk, talk - I watch children being born and grow and talk - I see the sun rise and and and …For me these are wonders and miraculous.

I would be embarrassed to ask God for proof of the Ressurection, Trinity, etc. etc.

Ciao
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

tonsofquestions:
God has revealed himself many times - all the time in fact.

Mary has appeared to people many times.

I believe this but I know you don’t

That is OK. I am sorry of course.

Cheers
Cinette

 

[wasmit]

Cinette,
You said:
"When I speak of God I mean God with a capital G and that means the following:

Ah, see, here you are mistaken.

There are only three Gods and They are the Creator, Preserver and Destroyer of all things. If Einstein acknowledged the existence of God or Creator then you can be sure he was referring to the three Gods, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

All the other false mythical gods that some people believe in would not attract someone like Einstein.

I think one can reach a logical conclusion on that surely.

 

[Cinette]

Quote:
Originally Posted by anEvilAtheist View Post
That’s true. But should we definitely treat immensely powerful aliens differently than an immensely powerful God? If aliens will give us immortality if we follow the laws they give us, I don’t see why we should react differently than if a God would give us immortality.

Ha! Atheist where are these immensely powerful aliens? So you believe in flying saucers? Ha! Ha!

IF, IF, IF, - where are aliens to be found? When did they give us immortality?

Me? I choose God and he can be found everywhere.

As I said above we have the witness and testimony of 2000 years.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I quoted that statement from Einstein above (too lazy to go hunting for it now) - how would you then interpret it?

I don’t know exactly what he meant by it. But I also don’t see any way you can read some of Einstein’s other exchanges and believe that Einstein believed in the God of Abraham. I think his religious views are a little ambiguous but it seems like he was almost certainly an atheist or an agnostic. For example, look at this exchange:
Guy Raner:

I had quite a discussion last night with a Jesuit-educated Catholic officer . . . [in] which he made certain statements regarding you which I tend to doubt. To clear my mind on the subject I would appreciate it a great deal if you would comment on the following points:

He said that you were once an atheist. Then, said he, you talked with a Jesuit priest who gave you three syllogisms which you were unable to disprove; as a result of that you became a believer in a supreme intellect which governs the universe. The syllogisms were: A design demands a designer; The universe is a design; therefore, there must have been a designer. On that point I questioned the universe being a design; [laws of nature account for observed natural phenomena and the vastness of the universe for its complexity]. Anyway, he said that was enough to convince you of the existence of a supreme governor of the universe. Point two was: “Laws” of nature . . . exist; if yo have a law you must have a law giver; the law-giver was God. Sounds like an exercise in semantics to me. . .

He could not remember the third syllogism; however if the story is accurate you probably do. . . . I would greatly appreciate a short letter clarifying the situation. . .

Albert Einstein:

Dear Mr. Raner:

I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me.

From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. Your counter-arguments seem to me very correct and could hardly be better formulated. It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere–childish analogies. We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of the world–as far as we can grasp it. And that is all.

With best wishes,
yours sincerely,
Albert Einstein

Guy Raner:

Dear Dr. Einstein:

[The letter begins with a recapitulation of the prior correspondence.] I considered your letter . . . strictly personal . . . and have never permitted any of it to get into any publication, although I have showed it to a few personal friends. Last summer, [a classmate in a historiography seminar at the University of South California] remarked that such a letter is of historical value, and that I should get your permission to publish it at some future date . . . Have you any objection to its future publication, if an occasion should arise making publication possible.

[In your letter,] You say that “From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, and have always been, an atheist.” Some people might interpret that to mean that to a Jesuit priest, anyone not a Roman Catholic is an atheist, and that you are in fact an orthodox Jew, or a Deist, or something else. Did you mean to leave room for such an interpretation, or are you from the viewpoint of the dictionary an atheist; i.e., “one who disbelieves in the existence of a God, or Supreme Being”? . . . . . . polls taken in high schools have indicated that about 95% of the students held orthodox religious opinions, reflecting . . . general opinion, which indicated a long, uphill climb before the mists of superstition give way to a more humanistic outlook.

Albert Einstein:

Dear Mr. Raner:

I see with pleasure from your letter of the 25th that your convictions are near to my own. Trusting your sound judgment I authorize you to use my letter of July 1945 in any way you see fit.

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

Sincerely yours,
Albert Einstein.

 

[wasmit]

Ever heard of Anthony Flew the famous Atheist (with a capital A) who now humbly believes also.

secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=369

 

[anEvilAtheist]

My husband has said thousands of times over the years that he did not believe in God - now he believes and must have said so a score of times. Does that mean that the fact that he said he did not believe a thousand times abrogate his declaration of belief 20 times?

Certainly not, but there is no evidence that Einstein’s later statements were more favorable to the possibility of a God (or at least none I’ve seen).

Ever heard of Anthony Flew the famous Atheist (with a capital A) who now humbly believes also.

He does not believe in God by your definition of God, since he is a deist.

You know, when Thomas saw Jesus’ wounds he declared “My Lord and my God” and Jesus replied (I’m paraphrasing) “You have seen and believed - blessed are those who have not seen and believe”. You see, there is merit in Faith. For me I have Faith because I love, trust and believe in God.

I guess a modern person would prefer to challenge Jesus and ask Him to strip naked and would bring out a magnifying glass and taken a biopsy to determine DNA! Well, my friend I prefer it the other way. I SEE miracles around me all the time - I can see, hear, walk, talk - I watch children being born and grow and talk - I see the sun rise and and and …For me these are wonders and miraculous.

I would be embarrassed to ask God for proof of the Ressurection, Trinity, etc. etc.

Ciao
Cinette

I guess we view the world a little differently. I do not see the rising of the sun as proof of God.

 

[Surfmeister]

Hi Surfmeister!

There is only one God and he is the Creator of all things. If Einstein acknowledged the existence of God or Creator then you can be sure he was referring to the one God.

All the mythical gods that some people believe in would not attract someone like Einstein.

I think one can reach a logical conclusion on that surely.

“The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.” -Albert Einstein, 1954 (one year before his death)

 

[Surfmeister]

Hi Surfmeister!

There is only one God and he is the Creator of all things. If Einstein acknowledged the existence of God or Creator then you can be sure he was referring to the one God.

All the mythical gods that some people believe in would not attract someone like Einstein.

I think one can reach a logical conclusion on that surely.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. [Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]