Dishonest Apologetics

[anEvilAtheist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by anEvilAtheist View Post
That’s true. But should we definitely treat immensely powerful aliens differently than an immensely powerful God? If aliens will give us immortality if we follow the laws they give us, I don’t see why we should react differently than if a God would give us immortality.

Ha! Atheist where are these immensely powerful aliens? So you believe in flying saucers? Ha! Ha!

IF, IF, IF, - where are aliens to be found? When did they give us immortality?

Me? I choose God and he can be found everywhere.

As I said above we have the witness and testimony of 2000 years.

Blessings
Cinette

No, I definitely do not believe in aliens. I was saying that even though it theoretically could be aliens performing what we see as miracles, if there was a clear miracle, I would have enough evidence to believe in God.

I tried persuading someone on these threads that aliens do not exist (he was worried about it contradicting Catholicism), but didn’t get anywhere. I think the problem is that if you accept the types of evidence used to demonstrate that Catholicism is true, you can actually make a really good case that aliens exist. Even though the evidence is nowhere near enough for me to believe, I do not think it is far worse than the evidence for Catholicism.

 

[wasmit]

You know, when Thomas saw Jesus’ wounds he declared “My Lord and my God” and Jesus replied (I’m paraphrasing) “You have seen and believed - blessed are those who have not seen and believe”. You see, there is merit in Faith. For me I have Faith because I love, trust and believe in God.

Blessed are the gullible?

 

[Surfmeister]

Originally Posted by Cinette
“LOL! Talking of aliens and flying saucers I cannot accept these things. People have been “seeing” flying saucers and aliens (some even got married and bore children!!!LOL).”"

“A virgin girl named Mary claimed she was “seeing” a messenger from God(and she even bore God a son!!!LOL)”

" If there were such things as aliens from other planets surely they would have installed embassies in all the capitals of the world by now? LOL! I mean - people have been “seeing” them for such a long time!"

“If there was such a thing as God, wouldn’t He have made himself known in all the capitals of the world by now? LOL! I mean, people have been “seeing” Him for such a long time!”

Off topic!!!

I like this. This one is on the mark. For the record, I don’t buy the aliens visiting Earth scenario. They are on their own planets, reducing their carbon footprints or something… maybe getting a handle on mitosis…I don’t know.

 

[Cinette]

Blessed are the gullible?

I am happy to be called gullible for God.

Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Originally Posted by Cinette
“LOL! Talking of aliens and flying saucers I cannot accept these things. People have been “seeing” flying saucers and aliens (some even got married and bore children!!!LOL).”"

“A virgin girl named Mary claimed she was “seeing” a messenger from God(and she even bore God a son!!!LOL)”

" If there were such things as aliens from other planets surely they would have installed embassies in all the capitals of the world by now? LOL! I mean - people have been “seeing” them for such a long time!"

“If there was such a thing as God, wouldn’t He have made himself known in all the capitals of the world by now? LOL! I mean, people have been “seeing” Him for such a long time!”

Off topic!!!

I like this. This one is on the mark. For the record, I don’t buy the aliens visiting Earth scenario. They are on their own planets, reducing their carbon footprints or something… maybe getting a handle on mitosis…I don’t know.

Reading your comments make my heart sting because you are making fun of things which are central to our beliefs. But it is OK, I can take it.

God has made himself known in all the capitals of the world and in the smallest corner of the earth as well. That was not a smart remark actually.

Surfmeister - do me a favour - make a copy of your posting and keep it in your safe. In 20 years from now read it. I hope you will be around to read it.

Please don’t think that I am offended or upset. You must always be “to thine own self be true”.

Ciao
Cinette

 

[tqualey]

Hi, EvilAtheist,

You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting Pascal’s position (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal’s_Wager).

Pascal’s wager assumes that the only possibilities are atheism and Catholicism.

His argument has nothing to do with Catholicism - rather: God either exists or He doesn’t. The very term: Atheist means No God… and, on this we must be clear.

But it’s also possible that there’s a different God who rewards rationality and gives infinite happiness to those who do not worship a false God. There are also infinitely many other possible gods.

This statement admits to another ‘reason’ for the existence of God - you have actually added one to mine… You really can not have it ‘both ways’. God does not exist as a convience for flip-flopping arugments. I expect you to argue that there is No God and then simply to defend this statement. If you add that, “…there’s a different God…” you have materially altered the argument in that you are saying THERE IS A GOD - it is just that you do not believe in the One that I believe in.

So if you have no idea what God, if he even existed, would reward or punish, it’s irrational to make sacrifices that could just as easily hurt you as help you in the afterlife (if there is one).

This is where you have misunderstood Pascal’s wager. I would recommend that you read the link I provided. We are talking about two elements in Pascal’s wager:

1.) God’s existence and,

2.) man’s living his life in reference to God’s exisence.

I believe it is very unlikely that there is a personal God, but even if there was, this fact alone would not be enough to make me behave any differently.

There are some real contradictions in this statement. You have added the adjective “personal” and that is not part of Pascal’s wager. And, this truly seems to admit that you have not closed the door on the distinct possibility of the existence of God… at least an ‘impersonal’ God… Having said that - please re-read this link on the wager, because, in my opinion, Pascal gives a pretty convincing argument for modifying one’s life. Just look what it is you are ‘wagering’. The very concept of eternity is without boundaries… and this is a concept we can only guess at - nothing in our knowledge or experiences prepares us for this. And, while astronomy does get ‘close’ … this in itself would be a contradiction… So, we have to settle for the fact that the universe that we have so far charted is much bigger the we are.

Where I feel you left the intelledtual plane and move into the emotional plane is in your statement about refusing to modify your behavior to conform to your belief…even if there is a God. To my way of thinking this is the essence of intellectual honesty - or, the lack thereof. This is no different from the “believer in God” who acts as though there is no God. In the last analysis - unless there is a profound mental illness present - a person’s actions will conform to a person’s real (as opposed to merely stated) beliefs.

The devils in Hell believe in God - but, it does not change their behavior.

God bless

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Quoting Jesus:

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
Mat 6:23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Some see Him and some don’t.
Matt Redman:

I see the heavens proclaiming You, day after day.
And I know in my heart Lord that there must be a way - to sing a greater song.
A greater song to You on the earth.
to sing a greater song!
A greater song to You on the earth!

Who could imagine a melody
True enough to tell of Your mercy?
Who could imagine a harmony
Sweet enough to tell of Your love?

Who could imagine a symphony,
Grand enough to tell of Your glory?
Our highest praise but a feeble breath
A whisper of Your thunderous worth

 

[tonsofquestions]

Reading your comments make my heart sting because you are making fun of things which are central to our beliefs. But it is OK, I can take it.

God has made himself known in all the capitals of the world and in the smallest corner of the earth as well. That was not a smart remark actually.

Surfmeister - do me a favour - make a copy of your posting and keep it in your safe. In 20 years from now read it. I hope you will be around to read it.

Please don’t think that I am offended or upset. You must always be “to thine own self be true”.

Ciao
Cinette

You shouldn’t blame surfmeister, I was the one that wrote all that originally. I’m sorry if I offended you, it was wrong of me mock Catholicism like that, I’'m surprised the mods didn’t delete my post for lack of charity. I simply felt that your argument for why you didn’t believe in aliens matched up well with why I don’t believe in God. I do have to ask, however, which capital cities are you referring to where God has made Himself known? I know all the capitals of the world have people claiming to be from God, but God Himself has not been revealed in any city as far as I know.

 

[Cinette]

You shouldn’t blame surfmeister, I was the one that wrote all that originally. I’m sorry if I offended you, it was wrong of me mock Catholicism like that, I’'m surprised the mods didn’t delete my post for lack of charity. I simply felt that your argument for why you didn’t believe in aliens matched up well with why I don’t believe in God. I do have to ask, however, which capital cities are you referring to where God has made Himself known? I know all the capitals of the world have people claiming to be from God, but God Himself has not been revealed in any city as far as I know.

I was referring to planet earth. There are Cathedrals and chuches in all the cities on the planet even on the island where I was born. God is everywhere my friend. Everywhere.

The Moderators expect this kind of thing from atheists and it doesn’t matter. I cannot throw stones. I was once without God in my life so I cannot criticise.

Why do you not refer to yourself as atheist instead of saying that you had once been Catholic? If I were divorced I would not go around saying that I was the ex-wife of someone!

Cinette

 

[tonsofquestions]

I was referring to planet earth. There are Cathedrals and chuches in all the cities on the planet even on the island where I was born. God is everywhere my friend. Everywhere.
Cathedrals and Church’s may be everywhere, but why does that mean God is there?
Why do you not refer to yourself as atheist instead of saying that you had once been Catholic? If I were divorced I would not go around saying that I was the ex-wife of someone!
Because I am still clinging to the hope that I’m wrong and that I can stay Catholic. I haven’t left the Church yet, or even told my family about my decision, so if I decide to remain Catholic, I should be able to resume my life as if nothing happened. And though I’m leaning strongly toward atheism right now, it can go back and forth, which is why I just leave my identified religion the way it is.
Cinette

 

[Surfmeister]

Reading your comments make my heart sting because you are making fun of things which are central to our beliefs. But it is OK, I can take it.

God has made himself known in all the capitals of the world and in the smallest corner of the earth as well. That was not a smart remark actually.

Surfmeister - do me a favour - make a copy of your posting and keep it in your safe. In 20 years from now read it. I hope you will be around to read it.

Please don’t think that I am offended or upset. You must always be “to thine own self be true”.

Ciao
Cinette

I didn’t write that, Cinette. I copied it from another post and had copy/pasting issues and made a mess of it. The point I was trying to make was that the same logic can be applied in either situation.
(I can’t figure out how to take selected quotes from a post as I’ve seen others do. Can anyone help me out?)

 

[Cinette]

tonsofquestions:
If you still have hope and are searching go to adoration. Be there, talk to Him. If you can go in the early hours of the morning and have an hour allocated to you. I did - my hour was 3-4am and I did it for 4 1/2 years. Take a spiritual book to read if you like but be there and ask God to reveal Himself to you,

I went during a most trying time in my life and I experienced great joy in my sorrow. I would come out of the chapel into a beautiful garden and the moon would look down at me and I felt such joy.

Seek…

Cinette

 

[Surfmeister]

I’m going to be blunt, here, Cinette. Do you have a hard time admitting you’re wrong?

 

[Church_Militant]

(I can’t figure out how to take selected quotes from a post as I’ve seen others do. Can anyone help me out?)

This might help.

Traci:

I have searched for this and can’t find an answer.

I am trying to respond to a message and I want to quote multiple parts of it. Will the multiquote feature allow me to do that? If so how? I don’t want to have to put the

and

for each piece I want to respond to that would take forever and I am hoping there’s and easier way.
Thanks so much!

SuscipeMeDomine;5286993:

The multiquote feature allows you to quote from multiple messages. It won’t break up a single message into multiple quotes. As far as I know, manually putting in quote ] and /quote ] is the only way to do it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=344350

 

[Surfmeister]

Thanks Church Militant! I’ll play around a bit and give it a try!

 

[Church_Militant]

As to topic.

I figure that at the end of one’s life no matter what beliefs you have held prior the seriousness of that ultimate end makes most people get honest with themselves and that is when we see these deathbed conversions and professions of faith etc.

That people do so indicates (to me anyway) that what they had professed before was feeling inadequate to the very final event they were facing.

In apologetics, I never use that stuff much because, though indicative, it’s not really concrete enough.

It may be reassuring to those of us who are people of faith, and maybe evidential to those on both sides of such discussions, but I don’t consider it especially handy for apologetics.

It’s not dishonest, just not all that good.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks Church Militant! I’ll play around a bit and give it a try!

 

[Surfmeister]

As to topic.

I figure that at the end of one’s life no matter what beliefs you have held prior the seriousness of that ultimate end makes most people get honest with themselves and that is when we see these deathbed conversions and professions of faith etc.

That people do so indicates (to me anyway) that what they had professed before was feeling inadequate to the very final event they were facing.

In apologetics, I never use that stuff much because, though indicative, it’s not really concrete enough.

It may be reassuring to those of us who are people of faith, and maybe evidential to those on both sides of such discussions, but I don’t consider it especially handy for apologetics.

It’s not dishonest, just not all that good.

Testing the quote thingamabob.

 

[Surfmeister]

As to topic.

I figure that at the end of one’s life no matter what beliefs you have held prior the seriousness of that ultimate end makes most people get honest with themselves and that is when we see these deathbed conversions and professions of faith etc.

That people do so indicates (to me anyway) that what they had professed before was feeling inadequate to the very final event they were facing.

In apologetics, I never use that stuff much because, though indicative, it’s not really concrete enough.

 

[Surfmeister]

I’m not having much success.