Dishonesty during RCIA, please help

[mcrow]

I understand that, and that’s fine.

But this man is an agnostic. A confessed agnostic. Which precludes ANY faith in God. If he believed as a child, he certainly rejected that faith when he turned 18. Since we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9), it would seem that this man is not a Christian now, and there is some question as to whether he ever was.

So, the question remains: Can one be Catholic and not be a Christian?

As the above poster said, once Catholic, always Catholic. We are a family, sometimes family members have disputes and they leave but we always have a place for them to come back.

Granted, if you leave and comeback the priest may suggest that you go through RCIA, depending on the situation but you will be welcomed back. You would certainly be required to go to confession before taking part in the Eucharist, at the very least.

 

[The_Long_Road]

Yes you do need to talk to your priest about it. Do not wait for the confessional to talk to him about this. Contact the Parrish office and schedule a meeting with him to discuss this in a lengthy manner in his office. You will find that talking with him face to face is firstly better than the confessional because even if he is harsh with you, you are showing courage and it makes you stronger to face whatever it is that you do not want to face, especially in regards to other people.

I believe the priest is doing what is right no matter what other people say for the very fact that you did not do what he said and now feel guilty for it. It is what is causing you to tell him the truth about what is going on. Is that a bad thing? Of course not. It was wrong for others to say, “he is wrong”. This requirement has highlighted many wrongs committed. Of course you will not fee right about what you have allowed to happen. Of course you will feel bad in church now. But it doesn’t have to be that way. You need to trust in God and in his priest and talk to him and then do what he says to do.

As for your husband, I do not believe that he is agnostic. There is no such thing. let me explain. Agnostic seems to claim that they believe that there is a God but they claim to not know which religion is God’s religion. Is this how your husband describes his state in life? If so, then he is only being an arrogant lair and a fool and he knows it. In most cases people who turn away from god do so because they are angry with him and the world. It is not that they no longer believe in God or even the church really, but instead defiantly choose not to be a part of it out of selfishness and because they blame God and the Catholic Church for wrongs done in their life.

Why? It is because the agnostic point of view is not logical. If you believe in God then it is your duty to worship him and do as he commands. If you do not know which religion is God’s then you logically do not sit on your butt and do nothing, instead, you struggle night and day to find God because you know that he exists. If you press the matter of logic to agnostics then they get more upset and then revert to saying that they do not believe in God and are therefore Atheists. If he does this then you have him completely because to switch from believing in a God to not believing in any God at the first real argument then you have proven only that you are going against your own convictions of truth that you know because of rebellion and anger, not from logic and reasoning.

You can prove this to him by using Bishop Fulton Sheen’s words in where he explains that in order to be atheist then there must be something real to atheate. IF God does not exist then how can you not believe in him. He does not go around telling people that he does not believe in fairies does he? Of course not because it is obvious that fairies are not real. Atheists also do not live by their conviction that to them there is no God. They do not do what they wish to do on all occasions without regard to religious morality of right and wrong. They do not fight against the system, instead, they try to remain hidden within it. They still feel that murder, stealing, adultery, and other grievous sins are wrong even though they claim to know that the ten commandments are nothing but a fraud.

State to him that since he is an atheist then you wedding vows to him mean nothing and therefore you can sleep around with whomever you want to do whatever you want because the entire set of vows was spoken to nothing but air and are nothing but a lie because to him God does not exist. Tell him that since he does not believe in God then you do not need to listen to a word that he says because has no basis in morality and therefore could put a knife to your throat at any time and have no feelings about it whatsoever because murder is only a sin to those who believe in God.

What I am getting at is that if you push him to the ultimate truths of matters then he will obviously cave and admit that he most likely still believes in God and the Church but is mad at God and the world about something and is simply rebelling from his obligations like a child would. When pressed about the ultimate results of life one would have if he were either a true agnostic or a true atheist then the person usually must cave because they do not live their lives truly according to their supposed ideals.

 

[1ke]

I understand that, and that’s fine.

But this man is an agnostic. A confessed agnostic. Which precludes ANY faith in God. If he believed as a child, he certainly rejected that faith when he turned 18. Since we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9), it would seem that this man is not a Christian now, and there is some question as to whether he ever was.

So, the question remains: Can one be Catholic and not be a Christian?

He is Catholic by virtue of his baptism and can never be anything else.

He can certainly refuse to practice the faith and reject it intellectually.

That makes him no less Catholic. It simply makes him an apostate.

 

[SeekerAndMom]

Thank you everyone for your help, you have given me strength I have contacted the priest to make an appointment rather than bring this up in confession.

 

[EricFilmer]

Thank you everyone for your help, you have given me strength I have contacted the priest to make an appointment rather than bring this up in confession.

I assist in my parish with both wedding preparations and annulment investigations, and the thing that concerns me the most (after reading this thread) is that, objectively speaking, a Catholic who becomes agnostic may have fallen into a state of apostasy. I say “may have fallen” because agnosticism is a fairly ambiguous term (and people who use this term may have different understandings as to what it means to them). It all depends on whether or not your husband has completely rejected the Christian Faith.

If he has, indeed, committed apostasy then, according to Canon 1364, this incurs the penalty of latae sententiae excommunication, which means that the act of apostasy itself causes the excommunication (i.e., a bishop does not have to know about it and pronounce the sentence). But even if your husband has not completely rejected the Christian Faith, in becoming agnostic he may certainly have committed the sin of heresy (see this link for the Catholic definition of heresy and its distinction from apostasy). According to Canon 1364, heresy likewise results in latae sententiae excommunication.

The ordinary minister required to remove the penalty of excommunication is the local bishop. In some dioceses, this ability has been delegated by the bishop to his priests (at least in terms of cases of apostasy and heresy, and possibly some other cases as well). The removal of the penalty takes place within the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You said that your husband went to Confession, but one wonders what all he actually brought up. Maybe he was just “going through the motions” of Confession (while eliminating the details of his current beliefs) for the sake of the convalidation. If so, he may have withheld the information about being an agnostic to prevent that from throwing a monkey wrench into the plans.

In any event, the priest is not allowed to speak about anything that your husband brought up in confession. Your husband, however, is. So whereas I think that it is still a good idea to address your concerns to your priest, you might want to consider having a heart-to-heart talk with your husband. After all, this situation has greatly disrupted your spiritual life for the simple fact that you feel compelled not to receive Communion.

But let me also clarify that I am only speaking in general terms here. I don’t know all the details of this case, and the details are important. It could be that everything was properly handled during the preparation for your convalidation.

 

[EricFilmer]

I probably need to make a clarification concerning my last post and my references to apostasy and heresy. Although the New Advent article I linked explained the matter, it does so in greater detail than what is probably needed to be understood in terms of this thread. In light of this, I will now provide a briefer definition from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith…” (CCC #2089)

Even if it is possible for a Catholic who becomes agnostic to not be a full blown apostate, he would still undoubtedly be in a persistent state of denial of most, if not all, the elements of the Nicene Creed (as well as many other Catholic doctrines), and therefore be in a state of heresy.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

How can he be Catholic and agnostic?

He has obviously lapsed from the Church, as was the case with my husband when his parents divorced. I considered myself a pagan and a witch, but since I was baptized a Catholic, I never stopped being a Catholic although I was a very lapsed one.

When my son started saying he was agnostic I simply laughed, told him, “No, whatever you want to call yourself right now, you ARE a Catholic and always will be.”