Dismantiling Determinism

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I’ve gotten into a conversation online with someone who is, at the very least, a determinist. That is to say, there is no free will in the world. I think he goes even farther in saying that God — he says the Christian God, I’ve learned that much — plays with us like a chessmaster and pupil.

According to him: God knows exactly what we’re going to do — I know this is true — so, through his divine intervention, he’s directly manipulating us — this is not true.

I’m in way over my head. I think he has me at a severe disadvantage, as he knows I’m Catholic and I have no idea what Protestant clergyman he follows, and I think his goal is largely to convince me that free will doesn’t exist. My goal would be to bear witness to the truth, so I don’t see that backing down at this point would do anything but further convince him of the truth of his error.

Ugh. What would be the point in believing we’re wind-up toys without independent thought? Why would God allow whole swaths of humanity to fall into Hell by denying them His love if his is, in fact, a loving god?

Orthodox responses only, please. I’m not looking to investigate the truth of determinism as the whole idea of it seems absolutely absurd. If I misrepresent determinism, I’m sorry — I do not misrepresent this man’s belief as far as he’s stated it.
 
Elijah_Baley said:
I’ve gotten into a conversation online with someone who is, at the very least, a determinist. That is to say, there is no free will in the world. I think he goes even farther in saying that God — he says the Christian God, I’ve learned that much — plays with us like a chessmaster and pupil.

According to him: God knows exactly what we’re going to do — I know this is true — so, through his divine intervention, he’s directly manipulating us — this is not true.

I’m in way over my head. I think he has me at a severe disadvantage, as he knows I’m Catholic and I have no idea what Protestant clergyman he follows, and I think his goal is largely to convince me that free will doesn’t exist. My goal would be to bear witness to the truth, so I don’t see that backing down at this point would do anything but further convince him of the truth of his error.

Ugh. What would be the point in believing we’re wind-up toys without independent thought? Why would God allow whole swaths of humanity to fall into Hell by denying them His love if his is, in fact, a loving god?

Orthodox responses only, please. I’m not looking to investigate the truth of determinism as the whole idea of it seems absolutely absurd. If I misrepresent determinism, I’m sorry — I do not misrepresent this man’s belief as far as he’s stated it.
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So he is trying to convince you that there is no such thing as free will?

The first thing I would do is to point out the pointlessness of his attempt to change your mind if there is no free will! and if he persists in trying to convince you then you have something to argue about
According to him: God knows exactly what we’re going to do — I know this is true — so, through his divine intervention, he’s directly manipulating us — this is not true.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that yes God knows exactly what we will do but he does not make us do it, rather he knows us so well he knows what we will do before we do it. For example I could set my watch by an ex-girlfriend who was always late, I know her imperfectly and can still say with confidence some of the things she will do, but I am not manipulating her am I? of course not.

God who has perfect knowledge of us as our Creator and Father knows perfectly what we will do because He knows us so well not because he pulls the strings. Yes he gives us glimpses and visions of the Truth from time to time but we are free to reject or accept them as we see fit. the Concept of predestination Vs. free will is a complex and ancient problem, take heart that you are not the first and won’t be the last to face such opponents.
This site may be of help:
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

God bless
 
There’s a slim little math nerd novel called Flatland that has, as I recall, one dimensional points, two dimensional line and rounded three dimensional characters. God is like the 3-D character, we are like the 2-D characters in the relative time-space continuum. God sees everything on our tabletop from a vantage point outside time and space. God knows our future and past–2-D terms. We have free will on the tabletop and will join Him in 3-D glorified existence…or chose to live in the God-free zone, Hell. I don’t know much about Calvinism but determinism seems like an abuse from this quarter. No free will, no humanity, no ability to chose God or un-God, no meaning, no sin or virtue, no Jesus my Savior. Diabolical…Imagine there’s no free will, it’s easy if you try. Nothing to judge just actions of zombies who will die…
 
It might be that his definition or understanding of free will itself is flawed Elijah B.

You could reduce it to two statements for him and see what the response is.
  1. If there is no free will, then there is no such thing as sin or as the devil.
  2. If there is no such thing as sin or the devil, then why did Jesus come - what did He come to save/redeem us from ?
I would refer to the sentiment of the previous post directly above … If he can’t see that, he probably isn’t a Christian.
 
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