Dismissal of children during middle of Mass for their own service

[Chris-WA]

jimmyakin.org/2005/03/childrens_litur.html

I agree with everything he said in his article.

Jimmy doesn’t outright say it is an abuse, but he seems to be of the opinion that it is. His “as far as I can tell” comment indicates that, according to him, the verbiage is hazy enough that it isn’t all that clear from what the DMC says as to whether laypeople can perform this function.

He would certaintly agree via Redemptionis Sacramentum that it is a liturgical abuse for anyone other than a priest or deacon to give a homily. He would definitely say that no layperson can perform this function. The hazy part he is referring to is whether or not the talk given during the CLOTW after the readings constitutes an actual homily. I would say that it does because CLOTW is an approved liturgy, and the liturgy of the word always includes a homily after the gospel reading. So it’s clear that only a priest or deacon can perform this function. How anyone could read into the DMC that laypeople are allowed to do the functions of a priest or deacon I don’t know. I think people just assume without really making the effort to find out. Regardless, if this is going on in your parish, you should bring it to the attention of your pastor for correction.

 

[puzzleannie]

if you want to discuss the specifics of topics that relate to the special rubrics for Masses with children, you must quote the relevant portion of those documents, not the GIRM and other rubrics without qualification. yes it is licit, why are we beating a dead horse?

 

[Chris-WA]

if you want to discuss the specifics of topics that relate to the special rubrics for Masses with children, you must quote the relevant portion of those documents, not the GIRM and other rubrics without qualification. yes it is licit, why are we beating a dead horse?

I’m not sure what you are referring to. We’re not saying that CLOTW is illicit. We all know it’s an approved liturgy. What I’m saying is that liturgical abuse is occurring if a priest or deacon is not reading the gospel and doing the homily at CLOTW, which I’m sure is the case at many parishes that have CLOTW.

And I would certainly argue that CLOTW is not exempt from any of the provisions of the GIRM or especially Redemptionis Sacramentum, the purpose of which is to correct abuses such as we have been discussing.

 

[Aramis]

One other statement you made that got my attention, though unrelated to this topic, was that a sister can be an “acting pastor”. I’m not sure what you mean by that.

There are several parishes without priests in the Archdiocese of Anchorage (and Dioceses of Juneau and Fairbanks). The non-liturgial role of Pastor has been entrusted to diocesan sisters in some cases, who determine who is allowed to excercise the duties of EMHC, and to preach at Liturgy of the Word or non-Mass Eucharist service in the absence of a Cleric. They do not say the mass, nor can they confect the Transubstatiation, nor hear confession. More than an administrator, less than a subdeacon.

Some parishes don’t even have religious. Not all preaching is “in the mass.”
Redemtionis Sacramentum
Redemtionis Sacramentum (bolding mine):

1. Preaching

[161.] As was already noted above, the homily on account of its importance and its nature is reserved to the Priest or Deacon during Mass.[260] **As regards other forms of preaching, if necessity demands it in particular circumstances, or if usefulness suggests it in special cases, lay members of Christ’s faithful may be allowed to preach in a church or in an oratory outside Mass in accordance with the norm of law.**261] This may be done only on account of a scarcity of sacred ministers in certain places, in order to meet the need, and it may not be transformed from an exceptional measure into an ordinary practice, nor may it be understood as an authentic form of the advancement of the laity.[262] All must remember besides that the faculty for giving such permission belongs to the local Ordinary, and this as regards individual instances; this permission is not the competence of anyone else, even if they are Priests or Deacons.

1. Particular Celebrations carried out in the Absence of a Priest

[162.] On the day known as the Lord’s Day, the Church faithful gathers together to commemorate the Lord’s Resurrection and the whole Paschal Mystery, especially by the celebration of Mass.[263] For “no Christian community is built up unless it is rooted in and hinges upon the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist”.[264] Hence it is the Christian people’s right to have the Eucharist celebrated for them on Sunday, and whenever holydays of obligation or other major feasts occur, and even daily insofar as this is possible. Therefore when it is difficult to have the celebration of Mass on a Sunday in a parish church or in another community of Christ’s faithful, the diocesan Bishop together with his Priests should consider appropriate remedies.[265] Among such solutions will be that other Priests be called upon for this purpose, or that the faithful transfer to a church in a nearby place so as to participate in the Eucharistic mystery there.[266]

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I think people just assume without really making the effort to find out. Regardless, if this is going on in your parish, you should bring it to the attention of your pastor for correction.

I don’t think it’s a matter of laziness on the part of our parish. It might simply be a case of not knowing it is incorrect (or might be incorrect ).

Is it a homily? It seems to me that it is. They really need to revise the verbiage to make it clearer so as to alieviate the confusion.

I will bring this up with our pastors. They’ll need to agree on this together as we don’t have one pastor but two co-pastors. If they agree, I can’t see a problem with it being implemented since we have two deacons at our parish.

Thanks for the Redemptionis Sacramentum references. I’ll look into them and consider it when discussing the issues with the pastors.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Sending a baptized person away from the mass is not a sensible thing to do. Children should not be sent away. It is an afront to Jesus’ message. Adult catechumens prior to the sacraments of initiation had traditionally been excluded from the celebration of the Eucharist but never from the service of the Word. What would be the point. The Word converts. The Eucharist is reserved for those who are converted.

While the Catholics have the theory of authority right the EOs do much better with the Liturgy. Oh, how I long for the end of this dreadful division.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Sending a baptized person away from the mass is not a sensible thing to do. Children should not be sent away. It is an afront to Jesus’ message. Adult catechumens prior to the sacraments of initiation had traditionally been excluded from the celebration of the Eucharist but never from the service of the Word. What would be the point. The Word converts. The Eucharist is reserved for those who are converted.

While the Catholics have the theory of authority right the EOs do much better with the Liturgy. Oh, how I long for the end of this dreadful division.

CDL

 

[Archerette74]

Well now I’m worried!

We started a CLOTW just this past year and I have been teaching 5th grade. (We split the children up into age groups.)

What troubles me is the thought that we may be doing something wrong! None of us volunteers would ever willingly go against any church teachings, especially if we are leading children astray in any way!

I find confusing all the talk of the homily for the children separate from the one in the mass. We give no homily. We have Catholic literature (little booklets) that are made for the ages we teach. Each child gets a booklet and we go through it together.

It consitst of an introduction to the theme of the day’s Gospel, then we have a group reading that we all take turns reading. It is a story that we will later relate to the Gospel, which is read last. The children take part in reading the Gospel, and then we answer the questions aloud, as a group, which are right in the booklet and they are questions about the Gospel. It is the same Gospel reading the priest does, though the language is changed slightly to be more simplified according to the age group. There is also an activity for the children to do which is related to the day’s Gospel reading.

I must admit that I have felt God pulling me to do CLOTW for years and when it finally started in our parish, I was the first to volunteer to help. I saw a need to make the children really hear the Gospel reading (as opposed to just sitting there and trying to pay attention and failing horribly to do so, thus leaving mass with no remembrance of any of the readings) and to be able to learn for themselves how it can relate to them in their own world today. It never ever ever once occurred to me that it was anything against Church teaching. How could it be, when the Church has material for ages all the way up the 8th grade specifically made for CLOTW?!

Would somebody please direct me to the official church teaching on this? I would like to read clear information on what the Church does and does not allow with this, and directions on how to go about doing CLOTW. Is it truly necessary to have a religious teach these classes as opposed to lay volunteers, and must there actually be a homily given?

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Archerette74:

We give no homily.

This is the “hazy” part that I think Jimmy Akin was referring to. Are laypeople giving a “sort of” homily? If so, it is a liturgical abuse. If not, then it isn’t. I’m unsure if there is wrongdoing going on at our parish but is certainly worth bringing up to our pastors so we are doing things right. I can certainly see CLOTW being abused unwittingly by people though.

Archerette74:

Would somebody please direct me to the official church teaching on this?

adoremus.org/DMC-73.html

 

[MarthaMartha]

At a local parish, at the 11am Sunday Mass, the pastor will dismiss the children right before the first reading. They then go out to the narthex where they are supposedly taught the gospel at their level. The kids return to the pews during the offertory.

Besides being disruptive twice during the Mass (the coming and going of perhaps 100 children is both noisy and time-consuming), is this practice licit?

I’ve seen this done in a Congregational church. Apparently they do this as a part of the service, so nothing is disrupted. But I’ve never seen it in a Catholic church.

 

[puzzleannie]

What I’m saying is that liturgical abuse is occurring if a priest or deacon is not reading the gospel and doing the homily at CLOTW, which I’m sure is the case at many parishes that have CLOTW.

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that is not true. the same documents that permit this practice also allow, under special circumstances, for someone else to present the teaching to the children (which would then, by definition, not be a homily) if the presider is unable to adapt himself to communicating with small children. It also makes provision for suitably instructed lay persons to read the gospel if no deacon or priest is available. Since the reality of such CLOW services is that they are most often done while the only priest is celebrating Mass for the parish, they are most often done when there is no priest or deacon availabe. That IMO is the very reason why such services should be discouraged, but I am not in charge, and it is still licit, if over used and over-abused.

 

[mamar]

after reading these responses, i wonder…do any of you have 8 year olds and below??? why would you deprive them of this blessing? why would you judge so harshly? my girls still go to the children’s liturgy of the word (my oldest recieved her first communion in may)…they get so much out of it…they reutrn before the liturgy of the eucharist…they understand what happens next…and then in the car and at home after mass we discuss the gospel and the handout…sometimes i am glad they miss the homily b/c they may be troubled w/ the very adult messages that are preached.

in any event…i feel my kids are totally experiencing the ‘total church enviornment’ when they attend the CLOTW.

i also bring my chldren to weekday mass…and they are angels…they get it!

i hope that parents who are not so sure, please be open to it!

 

[puzzleannie]

suggestion, if your parish has CLOW during one Mass and you don’t like it go to another Mass. If you don’t want your children to participate, simply keep them with you. If it is happening in your parish but being done improperly, volunteer to assist and make it your business to see that it is done properly. If you observe real abuse, make your concerns known to the pastor. If you just plain don’t like it, go to another parish or another Mass. There are all kinds of things that go on that are licit but not particularly appealing to my personal sensibilities. Advice to self in those circumstances: get over it.

 

[Cat]

Good for you, mamar! You’re talking good sense and you obviously understand children.

My oldest daughter was described as a “spark plug.” She wasn’t ADD or anything other than a normal little girl. I was very glad that she was able to attend age-appropriate church. I think all the other adults in the church were glad, too.

 

[otjm]

I don’t think you understood what I said. I said it’s not important that children understand *everything *that is said at the mass. It’s more important that they are physically there with their families, not off somewhere else being given the children’s version of things.

No, I think they understood what you said; they just disagreed. They think it is important that children be taught - that is what the Liturgy of the Word is supposed to do - in words they understand.

That’s the point you are missing. If the kids are pulled out of mass for CLOTW, then for that period of time they are not at mass with their families. They are in some other room getting a watered down experience probably provided by a layperson who cannot legally preach a homily.

If it is done right, it is not a watered down homily, it is the Gospel reading given at their age level and understanding. It appears that you have not investigated what actually happens, but rather formed an opinion without the facts.

They are missing part of the mass experience, especially hearing the gospel and the homily proclaimed by an ordained priest or deacon. They are pulled out of mass and are not hearing scripture as it is actually written.

Of course. They are not miniature adults; they are children. Most children I know do not start reading Shakespear or Homer in the first grade.

Yes, understanding will come with time, but what we’ve done is watered down the mass experience for kids because of some perceived notion that it’s too hard for them. If one wants to make sure they get something more at their level then they can get that in their RE class.

And how many times after Mass have you asked your children any questions to see if they actually understood any part of the readings? Perhaps you have brilliant children and they always get it; other people are blessed with less brilliant children, who benefit from having the readings at their own level.

I feel that the kids get cheated out of a lot of learning, and in the process learn very little about the faith because they’re only focussed on the Sunday readings. Of course we want them to be taught scripture, which is crucial, but they also need to be taught about the Catholic faith, which is often the part that suffers under this method of instruction.

and what part of the Catholic faith is not in Scripture? Are you even aware that one of the methods of teaching adults the Faith is the Lectionary Approach, which uses the readings of each Sunday to teach the Faith?

 

[Chris-WA]

No, I think they understood what you said; they just disagreed. They think it is important that children be taught - that is what the Liturgy of the Word is supposed to do - in words they understand.

Look, I don’t have a huge issue with CLOTW as long as it is done according to church liturgical rules. Now that is a very big “IF,” because I’ll bet that it’s rarely done properly as we have been discussing throughout this thread. Personally, I think it better that kids attend the entire mass with the whole family, and then attend a completely separate RE course in addition to, not as a replacement of, the liturgy of the word. I have five young children and it has been my observation over the years that many parents are wimps when it comes to their kids at mass. They bring them toys, bring them snacks, etc. We simply don’t do that, and after a while they all figured out that mass is a time for reverence. That’s what I want my kids to get out of mass when they’re little–that it’s sacred and important, and that we must treat it as so. I feel the best way for that to happen is for the kids to be there with us and the community at large, and witness all the mass from beginning to end. It takes time and patience, but they eventually learn without us having to bribe them to be quiet. I feel that learning that sacredness and reverence for the holy mass is more important than for them to fully understand all the readings and the homily. That comes with time, especially if we parents are teaching this stuff at home and not totally depending on the church to teach scripture to our kids.

If it is done right, it is not a watered down homily, it is the Gospel reading given at their age level and understanding.

Hey, as long as its done by a priest or a deacon, no problem. But again I’ll be willing to bet this is the exception in most parishes with CLOTW.

And what part of the Catholic faith is not in Scripture?

A lot. You cannot learn the Catholic faith with scripture alone. There is also sacred Tradition with a capital “T,” which, unlike Protestantism, has equal standing in our religion. Having taught middle-school age RE in my parish with a lectionary-based program, I find that it’s decent scriptural training but there is so much about Catholicism that is never covered because the classes are focussed only on the weekly readings. Given that the weekly readings are on a 3 year-rotation, you can imagine how much is missed by basing a class entirely on those few readings. Many important topics of Catholicism are never brought up at all.

Are you even aware that one of the methods of teaching adults the Faith is the Lectionary Approach, which uses the readings of each Sunday to teach the Faith?

I can tell you from doing it myself with middle-schoolers that this approach doesn’t work so well as explained above. It’s a very incomplete way of teaching the Catholic faith. Remember the pillar and foundation of truth is not scripture–it’s the church!

 

[Jennifer_G]

When I was a kid , our church never had kids in the church service when it started. In fact, they started it a few years ago when they added in the contemporary service (a new, 3rd church service), and called the 2nd service the “Family Service”. 15 minutes into it, you see all of the parents and kids getting up to cut through the FRONT of the church (past the pulpit, baptismal font, and altar) to go out the “backdoor” hallway. Now, 20 years ago, on the rare occasion we were in on a church service, we’d leave from the BACK of the church, and go down those stairs, or walk around to the other side.

 

[Chris-WA]

that is not true. the same documents that permit this practice also allow, under special circumstances, for someone else to present the teaching to the children (which would then, by definition, not be a homily) if the presider is unable to adapt himself to communicating with small children. It also makes provision for suitably instructed lay persons to read the gospel if no deacon or priest is available. Since the reality of such CLOW services is that they are most often done while the only priest is celebrating Mass for the parish, they are most often done when there is no priest or deacon availabe. That IMO is the very reason why such services should be discouraged, but I am not in charge, and it is still licit, if over used and over-abused.

Could you point me to the source document stating that laypersons may do the gospel reading and preaching for CLOTW?

 

[SMHW]

. Personally, I think it better that kids attend the entire mass with the whole family, and then attend a completely separate RE course in addition to, not as a replacement of, the liturgy of the word.

I’m a little confused by your statement. Are you saying that CLOTW is an RE course that replaces the Liturgy of the Word? If that has been your experience then your parish is definitely doing things incorrectly.

CLOTW should not be considered a religious education course (although those who lead it probably come under the authority of the DRE as well as the Liturgy head.) I know there are parents who send their children off to CLOTW and don’t bother to send their children to CCD/RE/FF but those parents probably wouldn’t do that anyways. The adult Liturgy of the Word isn’t RE for adults; CLOTW ought not be considered such for children.

If done correctly, CLOTW** is** the Liturgy of the Word. The children do not leave Mass to attend it. They may leave the main part of the church building but this just means the Mass is now simultaneously taking place in more than one location.

 

[Chris-WA]

I’m a little confused by your statement. Are you saying that CLOTW is an RE course that replaces the Liturgy of the Word? If that has been your experience then your parish is definitely doing things incorrectly.

Believe me, I know, as I’m sure many others see in their own parishes every Sunday as well. In our parish the younger kids go to*** RE*** 30 minutes prior to mass and then are brought in during the offeratory. The parish is trying to kill two birds with one stone, and the kids are missing the first half of mass.

CLOTW should not be considered a religious education course (although those who lead it probably come under the authority of the DRE as well as the Liturgy head.) I know there are parents who send their children off to CLOTW and don’t bother to send their children to CCD/RE/FF but those parents probably wouldn’t do that anyways. The adult Liturgy of the Word isn’t RE for adults; CLOTW ought not be considered such for children.

Agreed.

If done correctly, CLOTW** is** the Liturgy of the Word. The children do not leave Mass to attend it. They may leave the main part of the church building but this just means the Mass is now simultaneously taking place in more than one location.

Agreed, with a big emphasis on "If done correctly", which I suspect is a rarity among most parishes. After reading Jimmy Akin’s article on the subject, I don’t know how you can have a CLOTW without a priest or deacon present to do the gospel reading and the homily.