Dismissed...Where to go?

[quiet52]

Some dioceses and/or parishes require by-laws, others don’t. However, a pastoral council serves the pastor; it doesn’t exist to tell the pastor what to do, but serves at the whim of the pastor. There is no entitlement, even if elected by the parish.

The Code of Canon Law:

"After the diocesan bishop has listened to the presbyteral council and if he judges it opportune, a pastoral council is to be established in each parish; the pastor presides over it, and through it the Christian faithful along with those who share in the pastoral care of the parish in virtue of their office give their help in fostering pastoral activity.” (Canon 536, par.1)
“This pastoral council possesses a consultative vote only and is governed by norms determined by the diocesan bishop.” (Canon 536, par. 2)

 

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

An update:

The pastor placed a full page response to this issue in our bulletin, which addressed the issue from his perspective. He did say that it is often a mission speakers job to get everyone all fired up then leave, and he did say that he had some others question this issue, as well.

FYI-here is the entire code of Cannon law on Pastoral Councils, reinforcing that it belongs to the Bishop, not the Pastor. Its helpful to not just not see several bits and pieces:

CHAPTER V.

THE PASTORAL COUNCIL

Can. 511 In every diocese and to the extent that pastoral circumstances suggest it, a pastoral council is to be constituted which under the authority of the bishop investigates, considers, and proposes practical conclusions about those things which pertain to pastoral works in the diocese.

Can. 512 §1. A pastoral council consists of members of the Christian faithful who are in full communion with the Catholic Church—clerics, members of institutes of consecrated life, and especially laity—who are designated in a manner determined by the diocesan bishop.

§2. The Christian faithful who are designated to a pastoral council are to be selected in such a way that they truly reflect the entire portion of the people of God which constitutes the diocese, with consideration given to the different areas of the diocese, social conditions and professions, and the role which they have in the apostolate whether individually or joined with others.

§3. No one except members of the Christian faithful outstanding in firm faith, good morals, and prudence is to be designated to a pastoral council.

Can. 513 §1. A pastoral council is constituted for a period of time according to the prescripts of the statutes which are issued by the bishop.

§2. When the see is vacant, a pastoral council ceases.

Can. 514 §1. A pastoral council possesses only a consultative vote. It belongs to the diocesan bishop alone to convoke it according to the needs of the apostolate and to preside over it; it also belongs to him alone to make public what has been done in the council.

§2. The pastoral council is to be convoked at least once a year.

 

[kage_ar]

CHAPTER V.

THE PASTORAL COUNCIL

Can. 511 In every diocese and to the extent that pastoral circumstances suggest it, a pastoral council is to be constituted which under the authority of the bishop investigates, considers, and proposes practical conclusions about those things which pertain to pastoral works in the diocese.

Can. 512 §1. A pastoral council consists of members of the Christian faithful who are in full communion with the Catholic Church—clerics, members of institutes of consecrated life, and especially laity—who are designated in a manner determined by the diocesan bishop.

§2. The Christian faithful who are designated to a pastoral council are to be selected in such a way that they truly reflect the entire portion of the people of God which constitutes the diocese, with consideration given to the different areas of the diocese, social conditions and professions, and the role which they have in the apostolate whether individually or joined with others.

§3. No one except members of the Christian faithful outstanding in firm faith, good morals, and prudence is to be designated to a pastoral council.

Can. 513 §1. A pastoral council is constituted for a period of time according to the prescripts of the statutes which are issued by the bishop.

§2. When the see is vacant, a pastoral council ceases.

Can. 514 §1. A pastoral council possesses only a consultative vote. It belongs to the diocesan bishop alone to convoke it according to the needs of the apostolate and to preside over it; it also belongs to him alone to make public what has been done in the council.

§2. The pastoral council is to be convoked at least once a year.

A canonist would be great to interpret this. I read it to say that a Pastoral Council meets to counsult with the Bishop, not a Pastor.

Perhaps you are on your Parish Council, a different type body that assists the Pastor?

 

[Phemie]

An update:

The pastor placed a full page response to this issue in our bulletin, which addressed the issue from his perspective. He did say that it is often a mission speakers job to get everyone all fired up then leave, and he did say that he had some others question this issue, as well.

FYI-here is the entire code of Cannon law on Pastoral Councils, reinforcing that it belongs to the Bishop, not the Pastor. Its helpful to not just not see several bits and pieces:

Actually, Canons 511-514 refer to a Diocesan Pastoral Council.

The relevant canon for** Parish** councils is Canon 536 :

Can. 536 §1. If the diocesan bishop judges it opportune after he has heard the presbyteral council, a pastoral council is to be established in each parish, over which the pastor presides and in which the Christian faithful, together with those who share in pastoral care by virtue of their office in the parish, assist in fostering pastoral activity.

§2. A pastoral council possesses a consultative vote only and is governed by the norms established by the diocesan bishop.

So Parish councils only exist if the bishop wishes it and he establishes the norms. It’s also clear that the pastor doesn’t have to listen to anything they say and he’s the final word on anything the PC wants to do. In some parishes they are elected, in some appointed by virtue of their involvement in something else (religious ed, liturgy, etc) and in some it’s a mixture of both.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

An update:

The pastor placed a full page response to this issue in our bulletin, which addressed the issue from his perspective. He did say that it is often a mission speakers job to get everyone all fired up then leave, and he did say that he had some others question this issue, as well.

Hi again,

Did you find this response helpful in making you decision where to worship? This must be a difficult time for you…

God’s peace be with you.

Lux

 

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

Yes I did. He is very unhappy with me right now and I’m enduring a lot of
homiletic punishment directed my way right now because I went to the Bishop.

Despite that, the bulletin write up where he addressed masturbation was helpful. He said that the CCC only addresses masturbation outside of marriage because it is a self-fulfilling act. It’s only if it’s intent is for procreative means is it ok. In other words, it its used as an appetizer, it’s fine, if it’s used for the main course, it’s not.

You know, all of this could have been avoided if he had responded sooner. Why did it have to take going to the Bishop for him to the address the issue with me and the others who were concerned? Saying nothing made it seem that he didn’t care and was turning his head the other way, while someone else came in to feed his flock some bad food.

I’m just going to try to stay out of his line of fire until he calms down.

Thank you for your care and concern.

 

[quiet52]

Have you personally gone to your pastor to thank him for addressing the issue in the parish bulletin, and asked him to forgive you for causing him any upset because of the way you personally addressed the issue?

 

[peary]

Recently I wrote a letter to the Pastor regarding a guest speaker at our Parish that gave incorrect catechesis. I cited the CCC and asked for a public correction. There was no correction or response from the guest speaker or the pastor, therefore I requested a follow-up and response from the Bishops office. This person from the Bishops office referred me back to the Pastor. In turn, the pastor became angry at me for contacting the Bishops office and dismissed me from serving on the Pastoral Council and said the he “didn’t trust me” because of the "trouble " he go into. Needless to say I was very hurt and dismayed as my original intention was to help protect the parishioners from being misled. Where should I go from here? I’ve though about leaving the church, but I 'm wondering if there is a better solution.

Your zeal is to be commended. I would have probably printed out the correction and anonymously placed it in the windshield of each car! It would certainly have saved both you and the pastor unnecessary dislike…and he’d get the message loud and clear.:newidea:

 

[AHapka]

“Masturbation” is defined as bringing oneself to orgasm, while alone. Obviously, that isn’t what’s happening in the marriage bed between a married couple.

It certainly could! Mutual masturbation, and then orgasm by both before then engaging in marital relations is indeed a possibility.

It’s not as obvious as it seems, and neither is the speech. I’m thinking that we would really need a transcript of the speech to determine what the context truly was.

That’s the problem, we just don’t have enough information.

 

[Callixtus]

Yeah, contacting the bishop’s office is usually best saved for the last resort. I don’t know exactly what happened, but when a speaker says something that’s doctrinally incorrect, it’s best to handle it on the spot - to ask a question or ask for a clarification in front of the same people who heard the speaker say the incorrect thing. Then all is well.

But I would try to sit down with your pastor and make peace. It’s best to admit some kind of mistake from the get-go - to concede a little something. Like “I should have tried to speak to you in person about this before going to the bishop…”

But it is a serious issue that you mentioned, yes.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Why do you insist on going over your Priest’s head and going to the Bishop…I have not heard any concrete evidence that heresy was taught at your Church…the speaker you spoke of described acts occurring between a husband and wife while in bed…that does not make them gravely disordered and therefore not sinful…what is the problem? Are you trying to make it hard on your priest or trying to make your life at your parish miserable? If you are going to spout off to the Bishop about the CCC and the teachings of the Church…it may be beneficial to know and understand all of them yourself before you embarrass yourself…just and FYI. You are in my prayers.

No, really, the situation was that he got in trouble by the Bishops office. I can’t believe that when a parishioner has a concern about the flock possibly being misled, that they can’t make that point without the fear of retaliation. This Pastor has a very busy schedule. It can be months before getting an appointment. The PC meeting are not the appropriate forum, as one council member was already corrected about bringing up the same issue.

I’ve already decided to re-address the issue with the Bishop’s office since the issue has deteriorated to the point engaging in substandard ethical dilemmas.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Phemie]

Why do you insist on going over your Priest’s head and going to the Bishop…I have not heard any concrete evidence that heresy was taught at your Church…the speaker you spoke of described acts occurring between a husband and wife while in bed…that does not make them gravely disordered and therefore not sinful…what is the problem? Are you trying to make it hard on your priest or trying to make your life at your parish miserable? If you are going to spout off to the Bishop about the CCC and the teachings of the Church…it may be beneficial to know and understand all of them yourself before you embarrass yourself…just and FYI. You are in my prayers.

If in fact the speaker made the comment that there were no sexual sins in the marriage bed then the speaker was dreadfully wrong. It’s not a case of ‘anything goes’ just because you’re married.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Neither one of us was there…he/she (speaker) may have or may have not said that “anything goes”…I am not arguing about that…what I am trying to argue about is the one point the OP seems to be focusing on (Which in my opinion is the only real issue she has stated…furthermore, I believe the OP is only projecting what they believe the speaker’s feeling is towards marital relations due to what they said while as a guest speaker)…with that said, what I stated is correct. She had no right to proceed the way she did and now is acting dumbfounded when heat is coming down on her…if you set a house on fire, it is going to burn…what did she expect to happen

If in fact the speaker made the comment that there were no sexual sins in the marriage bed then the speaker was dreadfully wrong. It’s not a case of ‘anything goes’ just because you’re married.

 

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

He did say nothing in the marital bed is a sin…

Like the Pastor even said, it was this missionary’s job to get everyone all fired up…it worked.

Actually, I’m happy with the results, and I’m happy with the Pastor’s correction. It was
a first for me to go the the Bishop’s office, thus a learning experience. Hopefully it was a learning experience for everyone.

 

[CKNICKERBOCKER]

Why do you insist on going over your Priest’s head and going to the Bishop…I have not heard any concrete evidence that heresy was taught at your Church…the speaker you spoke of described acts occurring between a husband and wife while in bed…that does not make them gravely disordered and therefore not sinful…what is the problem? Are you trying to make it hard on your priest or trying to make your life at your parish miserable? If you are going to spout off to the Bishop about the CCC and the teachings of the Church…it may be beneficial to know and understand all of them yourself before you embarrass yourself…just and FYI. You are in my prayers.

I gave the Pastor several days to respond-going to the Bishop was a last resort. There was no response. When the Pastor doesn’t resond to a valid concern, what does he expect? I wasn’t the only parishioner with the concern. As it was it took this Pastor 1 month to address the issue…in the bulletin. When I addressed the issue, I did ask for clarification. I didn’t embarrass myself, but I did get HURT. For what reason? Asking out loud and following through with getting an answer??

I told the Pastor I was sorry, and that I didn’t know it was such a big deal to go to the Bishop’s Office. After all, shouldn’t we be a big happy family? Well if “father” doesn’t have the answer, why not ask “grandfather?”