Disobedience pre-apple: did they know?

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Fault implies, well, fault. God created us as a free gift, he didn’t need to, nor is he required to sustain us simply because he has created us. Everything he does is done freely, out of love. He owes us nothing, while we owe him everything. The fact that we choose to misuse a free gift places the blame on us, not him.
You did not take the word: “ultimately” into consideration. If you prefer, we can use a slightly different wording: “Ultimately God is responsible for everything, the good, the bad and the ugly”. As I said before: if God has a desk, it MUST bear the sign: “The buck stops here!”.

If someone commits a despicable act, then he was able to do it, because God knew that he will do it, God had the freedom NOT to create him and yet he did. Someone may complain that foreknowledge does not equal causation. But we talk about foreknowledge + creation; and that does equal to causation.
 
You did not take the word: “ultimately” into consideration. If you prefer, we can use a slightly different wording: “Ultimately God is responsible for everything, the good, the bad and the ugly”. As I said before: if God has a desk, it MUST bear the sign: “The buck stops here!”.

If someone commits a despicable act, then he was able to do it, because God knew that he will do it, God had the freedom NOT to create him and yet he did. Someone may complain that foreknowledge does not equal causation. But we talk about foreknowledge + creation; and that does equal to causation.
You still haven’t sufficiently demonstrated fault. God created humanity, true. God gave humanity free will, true. God knew that this free will would be misused, true.

Why does that make it his fault we misused it?

I can have a child, and I can know that my child will make bad decisions (because pretty much all children do.) Does that make me, the parent, responsible for their actions?

In order for God to be faulted for our actions, he would have to have willed our actions. He did not; he willed that we reaming perfect and in communion with him. You simply cannot rationally blame him for our misdeeds, regardless of how much foreknowledge is involved.

Do you extend this same “courtesy” to all the good that has been done? By your same logic, every last kind and positive action that has ever occurred is also God’s “fault,” because He knew about it and chose to create us. If the good acts are his active will, the things which he desires in our creation; why should the existence of negative outcomes prevent him from allowing the positive outcomes to come to fruition?

Now, I imagine you might follow up with something along the lines of “He shouldn’t allow those negative acts to happen.” (Not a specific statement about your argument, simply the most common next step in the line of logic based on my personal experiences. I apologize if I am misrepresenting what how you would reply.)

To put it simply, this would negate the good which he desires. We don’t call a computer simulation “good” when it does what we program it to do, we don’t call a defibrillator “good” because its current starts a heart beating, and we don’t call an animal “good” for doing what we tell it to. (At least, not in the sense of “good” that we’re discussing here. I call my dog good girl all the time :p) We do, however, call human actions good or bad, according to their nature. The reason we call a human saving someone’s life good, and not a machine saving someone’s life, is that ultimately the human has a choice, and the machine does not. If God were to make it so that we could not commit an evil act then we would lack the free will required to chose the good, therefore rendering the good ultimately meaningless.

As such, it would be inconsistent with God’s desire for the good to create us without the capacity to choose the good. With the capacity to choose the good, there must naturally exist the potential to choose against it, which is what we call sin.
 
Dear Pallas,

Actually, you do continue to ask the same questions, over and over, even though you’ve received answers to them.

It’s fine if you don’t like the answer you got. It’s your prerogative. But in a debate situation, it’s on you to explain why the explanation was not to your liking, rather than just waste words repeating yourself.
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding. God’s behavior is vastly inferior compared to the behavior of a decent human parent. I left out the word “behavior”, because I thought it was obvious. Mea culpa. 😉
Pardon me.

The offensive remark still remains. “vastly inferior” is not exactly appropriate for God’s behavior, unless…
Since “vastly inferior” is repeated, I wonder why. Intention?
 
Pardon me.

The offensive remark still remains. “vastly inferior” is not exactly appropriate for God’s behavior, unless…
Since “vastly inferior” is repeated, I wonder why. Intention?
I can’t speak for Pallas, but the offensiveness of the remark is immaterial if it is accurate.
 
The offensive remark still remains. “vastly inferior” is not exactly appropriate for God’s behavior, unless…
Since “vastly inferior” is repeated, I wonder why. Intention?
I am pretty sure that the problem is in our different approach to the acts of humans and the acts of God.

When I see a human father neglecting and abusing his child, I pass a negative judgment on that person. I would assume you do the same. No matter how loudly that person proclaims his “undying” love for that child, you would say that his actions belie his words, so he is - at best - a stinking hypocrite. As a matter of fact, it is not even necessary that the child should be his. A decent person stops and helps others, if and when he is able to do so. (Like the parable of the Good Samaritan tells us).

Now, when I look around and see the LACK of God’s helping hand, the LACK of a little rain so draught will not destroy the harvest and thus no famine will ensue, then I use the same measuring stick, and declare God to be unhelpful and uncaring - yes, vastly inferior to the Good Samaritan. This is the difference between us.

Yes, I am aware that you consider the Holocaust a horrible act, and yet you do not use the same measuring stick when you consider the mass killing of the WHOLE human race (along with the animals) as described in story of the Flood. No, there is no excuse for God. No excuse for the “potter” to abuse his breathing and feeling creation.

Of course I have seen all the attempts to whitewash God. If you have something new, by all means, let me know. But I doubt it.
 
I am pretty sure that the problem is in our different approach to the acts of humans and the acts of God.

When I see a human father neglecting and abusing his child, I pass a negative judgment on that person. I would assume you do the same. No matter how loudly that person proclaims his “undying” love for that child, you would say that his actions belie his words, so he is - at best - a stinking hypocrite. As a matter of fact, it is not even necessary that the child should be his. A decent person stops and helps others, if and when he is able to do so. (Like the parable of the Good Samaritan tells us).

Now, when I look around and see the LACK of God’s helping hand, the LACK of a little rain so draught will not destroy the harvest and thus no famine will ensue, then I use the same measuring stick, and declare God to be unhelpful and uncaring - yes, vastly inferior to the Good Samaritan. This is the difference between us.

Yes, I am aware that you consider the Holocaust a horrible act, and yet you do not use the same measuring stick when you consider the mass killing of the WHOLE human race (along with the animals) as described in story of the Flood. No, there is no excuse for God. No excuse for the “potter” to abuse his breathing and feeling creation.

Of course I have seen all the attempts to whitewash God. If you have something new, by all means, let me know. But I doubt it.
My dear friend,

I have not used the word Holocaust in this thread.

In addition, when commenting on the early chapters of Genesis, I declare that I do not do Noah.

It would be appreciated if you would kindly check the person’s user name when making statements. Thank you.

No need to reply.

By the way, I enjoy being Catholic. You may quote that statement.
 
I have not used the word Holocaust in this thread.
No, you sure did not. I mentioned it simply to establish a common ground, despite our different approach.
In addition, when commenting on the early chapters of Genesis, I declare that I do not do Noah.
Awesome. It is always fun to talk to pick-and-choose Cafeteria Catholics, who decide which part the Holy Scriptures they are going to accept as literal and which part is allegorical. It gives one a delicious excitement of anticipation. After all there is no “Catholic Annotated Bible” which would separate the literal verses from the allegorical ones. So you are free to choose whichever you find most appropriate in any circumstance. And if the next time a different set of circumstances arise, then you can safely choose a discernment which is diametrically opposite to the previous one. Isn’t that very convenient?
It would be appreciated if you would kindly check the person’s user name when making statements. Thank you.
Now, if you would enlighten me about this chastisement, I would be very grateful. Because I have no idea what part of my post was considered to be rude or unacceptable. I certainly did not intend to be discourteous to a lady who is probably close to my age (based upon the screen name).
By the way, I enjoy being Catholic. You may quote that statement.
I am happy for you. And this is not a sarcastic remark. I am truly happy that you have your peace.
 
They probably didn’t know it was “evil”. They were naïve.

However I suspect if God took on human form, and gave you a personal warning about doing or not doing something, I think the look on His face would give you pause for thought about disobeying Him, whether you understood the reason or not.
As you mention they were naive so they couldn’t know what punishment means.
 
As you mention they were naive so they couldn’t know what punishment means.
“Naïve” is a great excuse – like the dog ate my homework.

Adam was familiar with death. Genesis 1:28. And God was shouting. Genesis 1: 15-17. Even sweet Eve paid attention, Genesis 3: 3.
 
“Naïve” is a great excuse – like the dog ate my homework.

Adam was familiar with death. Genesis 1:28. And God was shouting. Genesis 1: 15-17. Even sweet Eve paid attention, Genesis 3: 3.
This story reminds me the life of a person who has a very good life and suddenly decide to eat poison and commit suicide! Such a flawed story. It seems that people have a good capacity to believe big lies!
 
This story reminds me the life of a person who has a very good life and suddenly decide to eat poison and commit suicide! Such a flawed story. It seems that people have a good capacity to believe big lies!
Yup!
 
You still haven’t sufficiently demonstrated fault. God created humanity, true. God gave humanity free will, true. God knew that this free will would be misused, true.

Why does that make it his fault we misused it?

I can have a child, and I can know that my child will make bad decisions (because pretty much all children do.) Does that make me, the parent, responsible for their actions?

In order for God to be faulted for our actions, he would have to have willed our actions. He did not; he willed that we reaming perfect and in communion with him. You simply cannot rationally blame him for our misdeeds, regardless of how much foreknowledge is involved.
It’s such a shame that the criminals of the world have figured out your loophole and made their children commit all their crimes so that the criminals themselves will not be culpable. Your post also explains why we jail children who were persuaded by bad people to take a ride in the candy van.

Obviously you will respond “but God didn’t encourage us to do anything wrong,” which is true, but it certainly reveals that there are situations in which the parent is culpable for their children’s actions.

So now I propose to you the following: imagine a parent who takes their child to a museum and tells the child not to touch anything. Another patron at the museum wants to get the family kicked out, and so he tells the child, in full view and hearing of the parent: “no, your parent is lying, you can touch whatever you want.” Then the child starts running around touching and knocking over things.

Naturally, the parent just stands there and watches the mayhem. When the police come and arrest the parent, the parent becomes indignant and says: “How is all this my fault?”

It is the parent’s fault because the parent is complicit by failing to rebuff the other patron’s misinformation, and doing nothing to prevent the resulting rampage.
 
Separate from the “parent/child” analogy, we have to ask: how should Adam and Eve have decided between their two competing sources of information?

Specifically, on one hand, God told them not to eat the fruit because they would die. On the other hand, the serpent told them God was lying and the fruit would be good for them.

How could they have decided who was telling the truth?

All the good Catholics here will no doubt say “well, obviously God was telling the truth, duh.” But hindsight is always 20/20. Do you suspect that Adam and Eve sat down and came up with the idea that God is goodness itself, then deliberately rejected that? Do you think that the Devil (an angel, remember) wasn’t clever or knowledgeable enough to persuade mere humans to do whatever he wanted?

If you heard voices in your head that told you to do one thing, and then a talking snake told you to do something else, which would you listen to?

I think a lot of reasoning about the fall is based in the unfounded assumption that Adam and Eve had some sort of special infallible knowledge of God that we no longer have. Sure, it seems like God talked to them much more directly than he does to us, but did they really understand who or what God was?

If you think they did, I hope the reasoning is better than “because otherwise my pet interpretation of the fall doesn’t work.”
 
I dont think there was a before/after or a decision that was made in regards to The Fall. The story of Adam and Eve is an attempt to explain why the world is imperfect and full of suffering. Its as if the world was destined to be this way, and all we can do is try to fill in the gaps and try to make meaning of it.

If the story of Adam and Eve were literal and they had direct knowledge and communication with God, plus the added benefits of grace and supreme resistance against sin and temptation as a result of being created sinless, then its hard to imagine why they would throw that all away. The story begins to unravel and starts not to make sense.
 
Separate from the “parent/child” analogy, we have to ask: how should Adam and Eve have decided between their two competing sources of information?

Specifically, on one hand, God told them not to eat the fruit because they would die. On the other hand, the serpent told them God was lying and the fruit would be good for them.

How could they have decided who was telling the truth?

All the good Catholics here will no doubt say “well, obviously God was telling the truth, duh.” But hindsight is always 20/20. Do you suspect that Adam and Eve sat down and came up with the idea that God is goodness itself, then deliberately rejected that? Do you think that the Devil (an angel, remember) wasn’t clever or knowledgeable enough to persuade mere humans to do whatever he wanted?

If you heard voices in your head that told you to do one thing, and then a talking snake told you to do something else, which would you listen to?

I think a lot of reasoning about the fall is based in the unfounded assumption that Adam and Eve had some sort of special infallible knowledge of God that we no longer have. Sure, it seems like God talked to them much more directly than he does to us, but did they really understand who or what God was?

If you think they did, I hope the reasoning is better than “because otherwise my pet interpretation of the fall doesn’t work.”
They knew God. They knew he had created everything and had given them dominion over everything he had created (Gen. 1:29-31) with only 1 condition: not to eat the fruit of the specific tree (Gen. 2:16-17). Of course they had a relationship with him. Given that, why would they put the word of the serpent on a par with God’s? I don’t believe they would have. They knew who they should have listened to but they chose not to. The proof is in Gen.3:8-18. They tried to hide from God. They tried to duck responsibility for their actions (Adam blamed Eve and she blamed the serpent).

Your question sounds to me like you’re trying to blame God for our disobedience, that the first parents couldn’t possibly be culpable. What you’re missing is that part of the point of this story is to illustrate how man is different from animals. Animals have no sense of right and wrong, we do. An animal can kill another and has done nothing morally wrong. That’s not true for us. We can be held accountable and we know it, whether we know God or not.
 
They knew God. They knew he had created everything and had given them dominion over everything he had created (Gen. 1:29-31) with only 1 condition: not to eat the fruit of the specific tree (Gen. 2:16-17). Of course they had a relationship with him. Given that, why would they put the word of the serpent on a par with God’s? I don’t believe they would have. They knew who they should have listened to but they chose not to. The proof is in Gen.3:8-18. They tried to hide from God. They tried to duck responsibility for their actions (Adam blamed Eve and she blamed the serpent).

Your question sounds to me like you’re trying to blame God for our disobedience, that the first parents couldn’t possibly be culpable. What you’re missing is that part of the point of this story is to illustrate how man is different from animals. Animals have no sense of right and wrong, we do. An animal can kill another and has done nothing morally wrong. That’s not true for us. We can be held accountable and we know it, whether we know God or not.
Obviously they had a relationship with God. I am asking what sort of relationship it was. Maybe God appeared as a talking turtle, so the devil’s talking snake wasn’t so different. You also didn’t address the issue of the devil’s power. Suppose Adam and Eve had ignored the devil the first time. Do you think the devil would have just said: “Oh well! I blew my one-and-only chance at this”? No, he would have used other methods.

Now you seem to be saying that because God came to them and said “I give you dominion, etc, etc” that they should have known that he was the one in charge. But why should they have taken this at face value? How did they know, especially once he was accused of lying.

Also, their hiding and offering excuses took place after learning of good and evil. So it could be that they only hid and offered excuses because the new fruit-powers allowed them to feel bad about it. In that case, the reason we are different from the animals that you cited only came about we ate the fruit. Does that difference make us better or worse than animals? If it makes us better than animals, then was the Devil really lying?
 
Separate from the “parent/child” analogy, we have to ask: how should Adam and Eve have decided between their two competing sources of information?

Specifically, on one hand, God told them not to eat the fruit because they would die. On the other hand, the serpent told them God was lying and the fruit would be good for them.

How could they have decided who was telling the truth?

All the good Catholics here will no doubt say “well, obviously God was telling the truth, duh.” But hindsight is always 20/20. Do you suspect that Adam and Eve sat down and came up with the idea that God is goodness itself, then deliberately rejected that? Do you think that the Devil (an angel, remember) wasn’t clever or knowledgeable enough to persuade mere humans to do whatever he wanted?

If you heard voices in your head that told you to do one thing, and then a talking snake told you to do something else, which would you listen to?

I think a lot of reasoning about the fall is based in the unfounded assumption that Adam and Eve had some sort of special infallible knowledge of God that we no longer have. Sure, it seems like God talked to them much more directly than he does to us, but did they really understand who or what God was?

If you think they did, I hope the reasoning is better than “because otherwise my pet interpretation of the fall doesn’t work.”
The idea of God and the idea of the snake or creature (the devil) are not the same idea. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know or understand the difference between the two. Surely, Adam and Eve understood who God was, namely, their creator and maker; and the snake was not God but a creature created by God.

“How could they have decided who was telling the truth?” Well, it is against plain common sense for Adam and Eve to think (as well as for most people I think) that God would lie to them. On the other hand, the serpent who was not God did lie to Eve. Accordingly, I think Eve had the common sense as well as the conscience to understand that obeying God’s command and word is the right thing to do while disobeying God’s command and believing the word of some creature is wrong.
 
I’m missing something obvious, surely. My brain is probably misfiring because of coffee in the distributor cap. Since Adam and Eve had not yet eaten from the tree of knowledge that would let them know what ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are, how were they supposed to know that disobeying God was evil?

Thanks!
They failed to trust God, and in that they failed to trust their own conscience. By disobeying that voice they managed to divorce themselves not only from God but even from their very selves in some manner according to the catechism. And this rift is evident in human behavior and relationships daily in our world.

Adam and Eve, and all humanity, would now have the “opportunity”, fortunate or otherwise, to learn, by experience, that this voice, which originates, along with their very beings from their Creator and not themselves, is honest, good, trustworthy, and true even as they possess the freedom to dismiss, ignore, and reject it. And it is most clearly articulated, revealed, and expressed in the person of Jesus Christ, since the experience of good and evil, without the merciful addition of revelation and grace, would leave our “educative” process short of certain necessary materials or data.

And Jesus was likewise dismissed, ignored, rejected, even humiliated and rejected in the end, by humans who preferred “themselves” to that voice, at least until we begin to recognize its beauty and importance.
 
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