Disobedient Parents

[pensmama87]

I will admit I take issue with quite a lot of what my parents think, do, and believe.

But I peaked in telling them about it from 14-16, moved out at 17, and have since come to a combination of understanding them better (although still disagreeing on most things), and learning to keep my mouth shut. If they ask me to do something I can’t in good conscience cooperate with, I decline. They’re not likely to be persuaded by my words, anyhow.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think there are at least three different types of “disobedient parent” situations:

1. Adolescent children challenging the “old-fashioned” beliefs of their parents as a form of adolescent rebellion. That is truly, nothing new. I recall a Flannery O’Connor short story that has a scene of the young male protagonist fantasizing about dating a black woman and bringing her home to his mother, and it’s obvious he doesn’t really have strongly held beliefs about civil rights for blacks or changing laws against inter-racial marriage.

In a similar way, I’m sure some teenagers today fantasize about bringing home a friend or date who is of the same sex, or transgendered.

I should also point out there are many cases of children actually having MORE socially conservative views than their parents, indeed I can think of many CAFers who fit that description, and agonize over whether they have a duty to “fraternally correct” their disobedient parents who aren’t going to Mass, who are supporting Gay Marriage, got divorced and remarried without an annulment, etc.

So it’s not just about the “eeevil secular liberals brainwashing our kids!”

1. Older children, who are actually in a position of being a caretaker to their aging parents. Certainly, some people in such a situation wind up perceiving a role reversal, especially if the parents are actually suffering from some level of dementia.
2. Children of immigrant families, who feel strongly pressured to assimilate with mainstream American culture, and get frustrated that their parents aren’t going along.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

There’s a fascinating book I read a few years ago called Hold Onto Your Kids. It discusses the phenomenon now that so many young people are more attached to their peers than their parents, and some of the reasons this can happen and how to make an effort to switch it.

Thank you for that book recomendation.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I at first didn’t quite realize I think yours are all basically social issues? They are just standard worldly rebellion… the world tells them these things, and now seemingky the majority says this. Kids tend to latch to socail issues like this for the reasons I already stated and because it is the easiest way to be “better than”. They can see you as not grasping modern life and “true human rights” etc…

Yes. I think this is a good description.

Yes I hear and see it a lot. Recently a mom told me that whatever she tries to discuss with her 18 and 22 year old sons they completely disregard her opinion. They say for every argument she has against gay marriage, smoking vape cigarettes etc they say they have information to shut her down.

This I could deal with. I would love nothing more than to engage them in a discussion of these issues. Sadly, they recoil from that. They don’t have arguments, they have feelings and attitudes.

This is as old as the hills.

You know, when I was 18, I thought my father was pretty dumb. After a while, when I got to be 21, I was amazed to find out how much he’d learned in three years.* (Fr. O’Malley, Going My Way, 1944)

I hope it is merely this but I fear it is more. I am deeply concerned that these issues are being used as a gateway drug into the secular culture.

Popular culture often depicts parents as laughably arrogant figures, while their children are the perceptive family members who aren’t too proud to see real wisdom. School teachers sometimes sell their views as the result of “research” and “rational analysis,” whereas traditional views are based on superstition, a system set up so that the few can oppress the many, and fear-based religion that forbids pleasure.

Yes, this is absolutely the case. But if it were merely this it would be sufficient to show the thoughtfulness and research behind traditional views. The problem, as I noted above, is that while modern views are being promoted as “science” they are also being promoted as morality in a way that suggests anyone who disagrees is not merely misinformed but evil.

Rebellion has always been a bit of a thing, but I do think it is over more now than it used to be because children and teens have so much more access to other influences, and other influences have so much more access to them. There’s a proper place for some of those things, but in some cases they can take over.

Some of this is inevitable and I was prepared for rebellion to an extent but I am quite amazed at what I am sensing in these interactions.

I’ve seen many 30 somethings very disrespectful and dismissive of their parents. They expect that THEY should be deciding things for their folks. What to wear, what to believe, what to eat, etc. When the parents say “no thanks, I can make my own decisions” the CHILDREN decide that mom and dad are “disobedient” because they believe they know better.

I’m not there yet but I certainly don’t want this. Not just becase I don’t want to be “disciplined” by my children but because I don’t want my children to hold these absurd values into their 30s. Youthful indiscretion is one thing but losing them to the Deceiver is quite another.

Speaking AS a teenaged girl who, to my genuine shame, does catch herself doing this kind of thing not infrequently (not maybe about same sex marriage etc but plenty of other stuff…either consequential things, or not) - I think it probably is just disrespect to parents.

I really appreciate your confession here, that was very brave. Speaking as a young person in this situation, do you ever feel the need to educate your parents? Are you offended when they argue back against your opinions? Are you so offended that you cut off the conversation?

My impression is that young folk are being told that every issue is just like racism and every parent who resists secular morals is just like a racist and what child would want to be have racist parents?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

My impression is that young folk are being told that every issue is just like racism and every parent who resists secular morals is just like a racist and what child would want to be have racist parents?

Some of this is indeed going on. The trend seems to be to claim something like “there’s no place for hate in this society” or whatever, implying that anyone who opposes, say, Gay Marriage, is motivated solely by irrational hatred. The idea that anyone could hold an opposing POV out of any rational reasoning, isn’t even acknowledged.

But, the idea that children must “correct” their disobedient parents is NOT just a “secular liberal” issue. Many of the younger CAF posters here actually are more conservative than their parents, and honestly agonize over whether they have an obligation to “correct” parents who are disobedient against Church teaching.

 

[EasterJoy]

I ran across an address by Pope St John Paul II to young people in New Orleans in 1987.

He warned them that adherence to the truth could expose them to eye-rolling from popular opinion:

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/speeches/1987/september/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19870912_giovani-new-orleans.html

…When Saint Paul says, “Let no one deceive you”, he is in effect saying: Do not believe anyone who contradicts Jesus or his message which is transmitted to you by the Church, Jesus speaks to you young people and tells you the value of meekness, mercy and humility. Other voices in the world will immediately shout out: “weakness!”. In the Gospel Jesus emphasizes the value of honesty, uprightness, justice and fairness. But when you practice these virtues, you are liable to be accused of being “naive”. Jesus and his Church hold up to you God’s plan for human love, telling you that sex is a great gift of God that is reserved for marriage. At this point the voices of the world will try to deceive you, with powerful slogans, claiming that you are “unrealistic”, “out of it”, “backward”, even “reactionary”. But the message of Jesus is clear: purity means true love and it is the total opposite of selfishness and escape…

 

[EasterJoy]

…Many of the younger CAF posters here actually are more conservative than their parents, and honestly agonize over whether they have an obligation to “correct” parents who are disobedient against Church teaching.

The difference being that they agonize over it. They haven’t forgotten they owe their parents a debt of respect.

 

[LeahTherese]

I really appreciate your confession here, that was very brave. Speaking as a young person in this situation, do you ever feel the need to educate your parents? Are you offended when they argue back against your opinions? Are you so offended that you cut off the conversation?

My impression is that young folk are being told that every issue is just like racism and every parent who resists secular morals is just like a racist and what child would want to be have racist parents?

Brave, or I’m just unpleasant to them sometimes! But thank you

Someone already said that some younger members of CAF are more conservative (or more aware of/wanting to more closely follow the Church’s teachings) than our parents which I guess applies in my case.

So frankly yes sometimes it IS a feeling of wanting to educate them. Holding contrary opinions might not be as wrong as doing contrary things (eg, not that I’ve talked about this one with them, it might be ok to think ‘contraception SHOULD be moral’, but it’s not ok to actually use it just because one wants to, if you see what I mean) - but I’m not at all offended if/when they disagree.

Maybe it’s just my parents who have always encouraged my siblings and I to stand up for what we believe in and be able to articulate it if needed (even to them), but I don’t think anyone in the family is offended either way - just probably get angry about it! Sometimes I might storm out of the room, to be honest (mea culpa), but I don’t know if that’s because i want to ‘educate’ them or I’m just angry in the moment and a cliched teen sometimes

To read a lot of popular media especially on the progressive/liberal end, every issue (like gay ‘marriage’, gender issues, even the ‘equality’ of women (which is to say, making no distinction between men and women’s callings, ie ordination) in the Church - IS presented as being ‘as bad as racism’. Frankly speaking for myself I’m more worried about being seen as the supposed ‘racist’ than seeing my parents in that light. But I take the point - I think ‘educating one’s parents’ is partly a new thing whipped up by our wider culture. One can have of course a reasoned discussion without being disrespectful, and in the moments I’m more proud of that’s how I try to be when my parents and I have a disagreement about something.

 

[DarkLight]

There’s also a reality of that young people do sometimes have to set boundaries with parents. I definitely went through a phase of “I won’t engage with you if you insist on talking to me like a disobedient child.” Could that be seen as disciplining parents? Possibly.

 

[Trishie]

Hi, the generalization that " The 60s generation despised their parents and went their own way hoping, eventually, to transform society but kids today seem quite brazenly confident that they know something that their parents don’t and that their parents need to be properly disciplined for their conservative views." is simply that, a generalization, and quite unfair to the many overlooked and less noisy majority who did not share that behavior and intent.
I speak as a member of the 60s generation, who also went to university and knew a great many families.

To refute another of the many generalization about those who were in their teens and early adulthood, of the many people I knew even in my years at university, only one student and one tutor took drugs. Another cliche abut the youth of the 60’s, that nobody remembers where they were. Mostly nonsense. Yes some people would take pride in saying that, because it sounded great to them, but it does not represent the generation.

Any generation can generalize about another, eg:

This quotation "was crafted by a student, Kenneth John Freeman, for his Cambridge dissertation published in 1907. Freeman did not claim that the passage under analysis was a direct quotation of anyone; instead, he was presenting his own summary of the complaints directed against young people in ancient times. The words he used were later slightly altered to yield the modern version. In fact, more than one section of his thesis has been excerpted and then attributed classical luminaries. Here is the original text
The counts of the indictment are luxury, bad manners, contempt for authority, disrespect to elders, and a love for chatter in place of exercise. …

Children began to be the tyrants, not the slaves, of their households. They no longer rose from their seats when an elder entered the room; they contradicted their parents, chattered before company, gobbled up the dainties at table, and committed various offences against Hellenic tastes, such as crossing their legs. They tyrannised over the paidagogoi and schoolmasters."

quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/

Those who rebel tend to be noisy and obvious.
The many others can be overlooked.
We can demonize any generation, or any group of people.
Practically everyone of the 60s generation whom I encountered in the 60swas respectful and conscientious, at university, at work, and around their parents.

I do have issues with putting people or groups of people, or even individuals in boxes, but not because I’m a rebel, only because I think we need to be fair.
I don’t think it was your intention not to be fair, but that you may honestly believe the stereotype. In any generation in history rebels may be found.

Best wishes, Trishie

 

[lax16]

Thank you for that book recomendation.

I also recommend The Collapse of Parenting by Dr. Leonard Sax.

 

[LethalMouse]

There’s also a reality of that young people do sometimes have to set boundaries with parents. I definitely went through a phase of “I won’t engage with you if you insist on talking to me like a disobedient child.” Could that be seen as disciplining parents? Possibly.

As adult maybe, but as a child wouldn’t what you describe actually be being a “disobedient child” and therefore wouldn’t the parents literally have the right to talk to you as such?

It is funny, today the child’s “My room” “my stuff” mentality… I never dared lock a door on my parents in you know THEIR house under THEIR authority etc…

 

[DarkLight]

As adult maybe, but as a child wouldn’t what you describe actually be being a “disobedient child” and therefore wouldn’t the parents literally have the right to talk to you as such?

It is funny, today the child’s “My room” “my stuff” mentality… I never dared lock a door on my parents in you know THEIR house under THEIR authority etc…

I was thinking of being a young adult, yes. Although even as a teen it can be inappropriate for parents to talk to children in certain ways. Teenagers are starting to form their own views on the world and it can be inappropriate for parents to talk to them as though they were simply being silly or rebellious without being pretty certain that they are rebellious. It’s one thing to insist on house rules, it’s another to treat your kids (even if they are children) as though they’re not allowed to have their own opinions, or as though any opinion they have that is different from their parents’ is simply them being childish or rebellious. And I’m not sure it would be inappropriate for a child to refuse to engage when the parent speaks to them that way.

Realistically, it’s not like there’s some magic moment at age 18, or when you move out of the house, where everything suddenly changes. Children need to be able to have age-appropriate boundaries with their parents. Otherwise you set the foundation for some real problem when the child becomes an adult and is suddenly expected to function in a way that was never allowed before.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I also recommend The Collapse of Parenting by Dr. Leonard Sax.

Thanks again, I’ve added both to my reading list.

I won’t claim to be innocent here but in relative terms at least, this seems to be something my wife is struggling with.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Brave, or I’m just unpleasant to them sometimes! But thank you

Someone already said that some younger members of CAF are more conservative (or more aware of/wanting to more closely follow the Church’s teachings) than our parents which I guess applies in my case.

So frankly yes sometimes it IS a feeling of wanting to educate them. Holding contrary opinions might not be as wrong as doing contrary things (eg, not that I’ve talked about this one with them, it might be ok to think ‘contraception SHOULD be moral’, but it’s not ok to actually use it just because one wants to, if you see what I mean) - but I’m not at all offended if/when they disagree.

Maybe it’s just my parents who have always encouraged my siblings and I to stand up for what we believe in and be able to articulate it if needed (even to them), but I don’t think anyone in the family is offended either way - just probably get angry about it! Sometimes I might storm out of the room, to be honest (mea culpa), but I don’t know if that’s because i want to ‘educate’ them or I’m just angry in the moment and a cliched teen sometimes

To read a lot of popular media especially on the progressive/liberal end, every issue (like gay ‘marriage’, gender issues, even the ‘equality’ of women (which is to say, making no distinction between men and women’s callings, ie ordination) in the Church - IS presented as being ‘as bad as racism’. Frankly speaking for myself I’m more worried about being seen as the supposed ‘racist’ than seeing my parents in that light. But I take the point - I think ‘educating one’s parents’ is partly a new thing whipped up by our wider culture. One can have of course a reasoned discussion without being disrespectful, and in the moments I’m more proud of that’s how I try to be when my parents and I have a disagreement about something.

I love dialog (which is why I’m here at CAF) so I am happy to share my reasoning with my children in various issues. I’m having a very hard time empathizing with their reluctance to defend their views in any intelligent way. (I have a hard time imagining the comparison to CAF children who are trying to convert their parents to be more Catholic, I don’t imagine them avoiding intelligent discussion but, rather, trying to persuade their parents.)

On certain issues, though, there just doesn’t seem to be any room for debate. They are, in a word, dogmatic and genuinely scandalized that I would hold a contrary opinion.

I’m trying to find the right balance between patience and challenging.

 

[LethalMouse]

I was thinking of being a young adult, yes. Although even as a teen it can be inappropriate for parents to talk to children in certain ways. Teenagers are starting to form their own views on the world and it can be inappropriate for parents to talk to them as though they were simply being silly or rebellious without being pretty certain that they are rebellious. It’s one thing to insist on house rules, it’s another to treat your kids (even if they are children) as though they’re not allowed to have their own opinions, or as though any opinion they have that is different from their parents’ is simply them being childish or rebellious. And I’m not sure it would be inappropriate for a child to refuse to engage when the parent speaks to them that way.

Realistically, it’s not like there’s some magic moment at age 18, or when you move out of the house, where everything suddenly changes. Children need to be able to have age-appropriate boundaries with their parents. Otherwise you set the foundation for some real problem when the child becomes an adult and is suddenly expected to function in a way that was never allowed before.

Sort of, but this is the modern slippery slope. If you are 14 and decide the Church sucks and is devil worshippers etc, but you parents say to quell your attemots to tell them of such and drag you to mass… that is your responsibility.

The over the top idea that teeneagers are so “entitled” to their own choices leads to a world of children truly viewing themselves superior. And every correction or rule of the parent is unjust stifling.

So in a perfect world yes kind of a line on being overly tyrannical as a parent, but the constant modern notion of kids having a right to know… eh

In that I know an adult who says even a child should not be left with “because I say so” as a reason for anything. I disagree for a true child doesn’t need the parent to stop and give a homeschool lesson on something… the child should just do it and learn later. While this too can be tyrannically abused, we live in a world now where the converse is true, every order/request given to a child must be affirmatively proven correct before the child is to obey… kind of explains the state of religion huh? Until God can prove every in and out of what he has set forth to conform to the logic of each person then we need not obey him. That is the same logic at play, God must prove himself “right” to each individual on each account before he is worth following…

 

[DarkLight]

Sort of, but this is the modern slippery slope. If you are 14 and decide the Church sucks and is devil worshippers etc, but you parents say to quell your attemots to tell them of such and drag you to mass… that is your responsibility.

The over the top idea that teeneagers are so “entitled” to their own choices leads to a world of children truly viewing themselves superior. And every correction or rule of the parent is unjust stifling.

So in a perfect world yes kind of a line on being overly tyrannical as a parent, but the constant modern notion of kids having a right to know… eh

In that I know an adult who says even a child should not be left with “because I say so” as a reason for anything. I disagree for a true child doesn’t need the parent to stop and give a homeschool lesson on something… the child should just do it and learn later. While this too can be tyrannically abused, we live in a world now where the converse is true, every order/request given to a child must be affirmatively proven correct before the child is to obey… kind of explains the state of religion huh? Until God can prove every in and out of what he has set forth to conform to the logic of each person then we need not obey him. That is the same logic at play, God must prove himself “right” to each individual on each account before he is worth following…

It’s a balance. For an extreme example, I would not hesitate to tell any of the daughters of the quiverfull movement to defy their parents (minors or not) in pursuit of a proper education, rather than someone’s idea of what a homemaker needs to know. Obviously a child should not be bound to obedience in such circumstances.

For a more limited example, I would encourage a minor to be polite, attend services with their family if asked, and typically refrain from pushing their own religious beliefs on their parents. I would not expect a minor to profess or appear to profess things in which they do not believe, even if their parents demanded it. For example, it would be reasonable for said 14 year old to refuse to take communion or to be confirmed, even if the parents told them to do so. He or she certainly ought to examine their beliefs and ensure they are acting out of genuine conviction and not rebellion, but a child standing by their own religious beliefs in a respectful manner, according to their own conscience, is something they have to do.

 

[PPeterson]

This is as old as the hills.

You know, when I was 18, I thought my father was pretty dumb. After a while, when I got to be 21, I was amazed to find out how much he’d learned in three years.* (Fr. O’Malley, Going My Way, 1944)

Fr. O’Malley was lucky to have a father who caught on so quickly. Unfortunately my parents were intellectually disabled from the time i was 15 until right about when i found out i was going to have my first child. Oddly enough at that point they rebounded from this and gained an understanding of the world that now surpasses even my own.