Disordered or Not?

[eichenb2]

Hello,

I am a potential Catholic and was having a discussion with a cradle Catholic after daily mass. When discussing the issue of homosexual attraction. I stated that I had no problem with it being classified as disordered. She said that he is “not so sure it is disordered”. She also said that “all the evidence is not in”. So, I have some questions.

1. Is the teaching that SSA is disodered infallable?
2. Even if it was unanimously determined that there is a “gay gene”, does that change anything, as regards marriage or the priesthood?

 

[thistle]

Hello,

I am a potential Catholic and was having a discussion with a cradle Catholic after daily mass. When discussing the issue of homosexual attraction. I stated that I had no problem with it being classified as disordered. She said that he is “not so sure it is disordered”. She also said that “all the evidence is not in”. So, I have some questions.

1. Is the teaching that SSA is disodered infallable?
2. Even if it was unanimously determined that there is a “gay gene”, does that change anything, as regards marriage or the priesthood?

Chastity and homosexuality

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

1. The teaching will never change.
2. Even if there is a gay gene it wouldn’t make any difference because as for heterosexuals sex is a grave sin if outside marriage and marriage is only between man and woman.

 

[jp2weloveu]

Chastity and homosexuality

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

1. The teaching will never change.
2. Even if there is a gay gene it wouldn’t make any difference because as for heterosexuals sex is a grave sin if outside marriage and marriage is only between man and woman.

What a gift is the Catechism.

Thank you for talking the time to post the excerpts, a laudable act of charity (and come answer one of my questions sometime )

 

[Jennifer_J]

When the Church speaks of homosexuality being “disordered” it is not really talking about a medical “disorder”. It is referring to the fact that same-sex attraction is not part of the natural order. Male-male or female-female pairings do not result in offspring (barring medical intervention). The natural order is male-female pairing.

 

[eichenb2]

When the Church speaks of homosexuality being “disordered” it is not really talking about a medical “disorder”. It is referring to the fact that same-sex attraction is not part of the natural order. Male-male or female-female pairings do not result in offspring (barring medical intervention). The natural order is male-female pairing.

Understood.

1. Is the teaching that SSA is disodered infallable?
2. Even if it was unanimously determined that there is a “gay gene”, does that change anything, as regards marriage or the priesthood?

 

[eichenb2]

I think it is crystal clear that homosexual activity is disordered, based on the Catechism, but why would so many Catholics be so adept at tap dancing around this?

 

[manualman]

It is pretty clear that there is an alcoholism gene. And I have it.

Does that mean that it is OK for me to use alcohol to deal with my troubles when they seem overwhelming? Why not? I’m genetically programmed to be attracted to the stuff… I have an inherited weakness that I need to take special precautions against. Some other folks have even harder genetic weaknesses that they must deal with their whole lives.

Don’t go doing any of us favors by telling us to just give in a be who our genes tell us we should be. That’s called false charity and there are millstones in store for those who practice it!

All sins are manifestations of disordered desires. The unchangable teaching of the catholic church is that homosexual sexual behavior is sinful. Sin is always defined as something that damages our ability to give and receive love. All the psychological evidence may not be in yet, but revelation IS finished. Homosex is inherently sinful.

Sorry for the blunt tone. SSA is surely a brutally hard burden to bear for those who have it, but watering down the truth hasn’t been of much help to anybody in the past. Blunt clarity is often more charitable than avoiding the issue.

 

[eichenb2]

It is pretty clear that there is an alcoholism gene. And I have it.

Does that mean that it is OK for me to use alcohol to deal with my troubles when they seem overwhelming? Why not? I’m genetically programmed to be attracted to the stuff… I have an inherited weakness that I need to take special precautions against. Some other folks have even harder genetic weaknesses that they must deal with their whole lives.

Don’t go doing any of us favors by telling us to just give in a be who our genes tell us we should be. That’s called false charity and there are millstones in store for those who practice it!

All sins are manifestations of disordered desires. The unchangable teaching of the catholic church is that homosexual sexual behavior is sinful. Sin is always defined as something that damages our ability to give and receive love. All the psychological evidence may not be in yet, but revelation IS finished. Homosex is inherently sinful.

Sorry for the blunt tone. SSA is surely a brutally hard burden to bear for those who have it, but watering down the truth hasn’t been of much help to anybody in the past. Blunt clarity is often more charitable than avoiding the issue.

I agree with you. SSA is probably very difficult to resist, especially in western society, but it is like dozens of other temptations that people need to bear. I started this thread to gather some opinions on why a cradle Catholic would say that she is not so sure it is disordered. Our society seems to buy into the idea that SSA is a more difficult burden to bear than single guy who lust after every woman they see.

 

[coda]

Hello,

I am a potential Catholic and was having a discussion with a cradle Catholic after daily mass. When discussing the issue of homosexual attraction. I stated that I had no problem with it being classified as disordered. She said that he is “not so sure it is disordered”. She also said that “all the evidence is not in”. So, I have some questions.

1. Is the teaching that SSA is disodered infallable?
2. Even if it was unanimously determined that there is a “gay gene”, does that change anything, as regards marriage or the priesthood?

It is at least “disordered”… same sex couples can not conceive children {together]… being gay is not sinful, acting gay is…

 

[setter]

Understood.

1. Is the teaching that SSA is disodered infallable?
2. Even if it was unanimously determined that there is a “gay gene”, does that change anything, as regards marriage or the priesthood?

#1) Acting on SSA =Yes – through the ordinary Magisterium …**CCC 2357 **Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. …Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law.

SSA in itself is simply a symptom of a disordered sexual desire.

#2) Anamoly, deviation from the norm of God’s original design and purpose, i.e., natural law, does not change anything, i.e., the truth does not change to accommodate the consequences of original sin …that is why Jesus, the unblemished sacrificial Lamb, became incarnate, suffered, died, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven, to fee us from resignation to our disordered desires. SSA = disordered psychosexual identity.

 

[East_and_West]

Hello,

I am a potential Catholic and was having a discussion with a cradle Catholic after daily mass. When discussing the issue of homosexual attraction. I stated that I had no problem with it being classified as disordered. She said that he is “not so sure it is disordered”. She also said that “all the evidence is not in”. So, I have some questions.

1. Is the teaching that SSA is disodered infallable?
2. Even if it was unanimously determined that there is a “gay gene”, does that change anything, as regards marriage or the priesthood?

1. When the Church calls homosexuality a disorder, she is not refering to psychological disorder. Rather, it is a moral disorder becuase it is the desire for something that is contrary to the moral law.
2. Because it is a moral disorder, the discovery of a “gay gene” (which btw, is highly unlikely. Twins studies have shown no genetic cause for homosexuality) it would not change the fact that homosexual sex is illicit. If such a gene were shown to exist, it would be considered a non-benficial mutation in the genome that was not part of the human condition prior to the fall of man.

 

[The_Stig]

tap dancing. tap dancing.

It’s embarassing to the Church that her members are so lily-livered.

If a person tried to stick carrots up their nose to obtain nourishment, damaging their nose and failing to obtain nourishment, and it wasn’t a joke but rather they really were convinced that you eat by sticking things up your nose…no one would have any problem calling that a psychological disorder.

Homosexuals have a moral disorder, but it is caused by a psychological disorder. The person suffering from this disorder is just as confused about bodily orifices as the hypothetical person who sticks carrots up their nose.

Catholics in America, your fear of being mean to people has caused you to all but lose this war. Traditionalists and Protestant Evangelicals are your only hope to learn the truth again.

Or you could go stick carrots up your nose.

 

[setter]

Homosexuals have a moral disorder, but it is caused by a psychological disorder.

Catholics in America, your fear of being mean to people has caused you to all but lose this war.

The Vatican cautions not to fall into identifying the innate dignity of the person with their disorder, however pervasive, such as their psychosexual identity:

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

1. From this multi-faceted approach there are numerous advantages to be gained, not the least of which is the realization that a homosexual person, as every human being, deeply needs to be nourished at many different levels simultaneously.

The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a “heterosexual” or a “homosexual” and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

 

[The_Stig]

No idea why you quoted my post, your comment does not intersect mine at all.

If I were lobbying for classifying certain people as “carrot nose stickers” and making a social class for them, then your post might have something to do with mine.

As it is (making my point again) we just have some people with some psychological disorders that manifest themselves in sexual symptoms. This is the opposite of the reduction you mentions.

 

[setter]

No idea why you quoted my post, your comment does not intersect mine at all.

If I were lobbying for classifying certain people as “carrot nose stickers” and making a social class for them, then your post might have something to do with mine.

As it is (making my point again) we just have some people with some psychological disorders that manifest themselves in sexual symptoms. This is the opposite of the reduction you mentions.

Punt my point …not well taken.

 

[The_Stig]

What?

 

[East_and_West]

tap dancing. tap dancing.

It’s embarassing to the Church that her members are so lily-livered.

If a person tried to stick carrots up their nose to obtain nourishment, damaging their nose and failing to obtain nourishment, and it wasn’t a joke but rather they really were convinced that you eat by sticking things up your nose…no one would have any problem calling that a psychological disorder.

Homosexuals have a moral disorder, but it is caused by a psychological disorder. The person suffering from this disorder is just as confused about bodily orifices as the hypothetical person who sticks carrots up their nose.

Catholics in America, your fear of being mean to people has caused you to all but lose this war. Traditionalists and Protestant Evangelicals are your only hope to learn the truth again.

Or you could go stick carrots up your nose.

Upset alittle?

 

[The_Stig]

Just can’t help but notice how bad we are at this.