Dispensationalism, again

[JustaServant]

And let me add one more:

1. Find the concept of ‘left behind’ ANYWHERE in the Bible or in church history in the last 2000 years.

 

[Lev23]

Interested in answering these questions?

Let’s start with Daniel Chapter nine (KJV) (the foundation of dispensationalist theology).

Quote:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

?

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. Disys say that there is a ‘church age gap’ between verse 26 and 27.
   Where is the gap? IN THE TEXT.
2. Dispys say that the ‘prince that shall come’ in verse 26 is different than ‘Messiah the Prince’ of verse 25.
   How do you know it is speaking of two different people from a simple reading of the text? Why would Daniel suddenly change his mind and start talking about a different person? How does this make logical and grammanical sense? Please find it IN THE TEXT.

Also:

3.Please find ANY referance of the ‘rapture’ in Scripture or in church history prior to the 19th century.

1. Dispys (like Harold Wilmington of Libery University) say that during the millenniam, resurrected people and non-resurrected people with sin natures will live side by side on the earth.
   PLEASE, find this ANYWHERE in the Bible.
2. Find ‘seven year tribulation’ in the Bible.
3. Find ‘revived Roman Empire’ anywhere in the Bible.
4. Please find anywhere in the Bible that says the Jews will return to the land in 1948.

I still await a dispensationalist who has the answers to the questions I posed.

And let me add one more:

1. Find the concept of ‘left behind’ ANYWHERE in the Bible or in church history in the last 2000 years.

No, I’m not interested in answering any of your “Show me in the text” “Where is 1948” questions. They are childish questions. You’ll probably be waiting a long, long time for anyone to answer them.

Sorry if your church history never showed such biblical views. But then again, the restoration of Israel is at the base of these views and Israel has never been much of concern for some Churches.

To help you out, the “Church” as we know it was a mystery to Israel before Jesus Christ came to earth. It was by Christ himself who announced the “Church”. So when one read prophecies like Daniel in the old testament before Christ, it can be compared to something like this-
You see 2 mountains ahead of you, one in front of the other. But what you don’t see is the valley between them. You know it is there, but you cannot see it from the perspective your at.

 

[Lev23]

No one tried to correct it because that’s not what was actually said. Should I send a link to that member so that he can defend his word here against what you’re portraying it as?

Yes it was, look at post #62.

 

[CentralFLJames]

To help you out, the “Church” as we know it was a mystery to Israel before Jesus Christ came to earth. It was by Christ himself who announced the “Church”.

Oh really?

“The Church” in OT times was in the context of “The Chosen People” as the universal priesthood of God’s people (the laiety) taken together with the priestly lineage (levitical) in the daily social interaction law and in the community worship at the Synagogues and Temple through the ministerial priesthood.

This is not substantially different in form than today in the Catholic Church - the same concept of God’s Chosen People (a holy nation a priestly people set aside for God). But it is now open to all peoples (Jew and Gentile) and the grain and animal sacrifices replaced with the One Holy Sacrifice of Christ himself as pure unblemished Lamb of God. The concept of Church is progressively family, nation and God’s people. This is not at all a foreign and mysterious concept to the Jews and why it was so easy for the first Jewish converts to make the connection and enter into it.

James

 

[Lev23]

1. For the record I hate no one - there is way too much entertainment value and opportunity lost on hatred. Those who will jump through every hoop to make themselves appear conspicuously foolish deserve an audience for the labors as well as their just wage (laughter and applause for the show).
2. If there is any falsehood being put out about what pre-tribbers believe it is only because there are a legion of competing purveyors of this new neo-Christian theory (never taught by a single apostle) who are all trying tell us what the bible is “teaching us”. Don’t blame me for that. That is the nature and effect of the free-range simony-market that is hawking “private interpretation for fee” in the same manner that vendors sell fennel cakes at the flea-market.

The neo-Christians are afraid of actually being held to the necessity of suffering in Christ as an obligation of baptism. So some enterprising opportunists in their ranks want to profit by that and do so by selling “rapture insurance” by professing to have unlocked secret knowledge (a form of gnosticism) to escape that unpleasantness. The falsehood is in the nature of the beast and in the cacophony of opinions emanating from the new leaning tower of babel. A new construct they are trying to manufacture as a replacement to the monolithic and sound structure of The One Holy Catholic Church - the Church that is aligned on the cornerstone of Christ and built firmly on the bedrock of Peter.

1. Your base assessment that Catholics disbelief that Israel will be used by God and ultimately restored by the second coming of Jesus Christ is just plain silly. Catholics KNOW that a remnant of the Jews will be saved, repent and become converts to Catholicism in the last days and have been teaching this from long ago.

I can’t speak for the fact that one Catholic spoke out in error and was not corrected since I didn’t see it. I always correct fellow Catholics when I see them making errors. Perhaps it was a poor thread that had few participants?

James

You only show how disconnected you really are for what God is doing at the present moment to restore his original covenant nation, Israel. Therefore all views dispensationist are laughable to you.

"Catholics KNOW that a remnant of the Jews will be saved, repent and become converts to Catholicism in the last days and have been teaching this from long ago.

FYI, at this moment there is a remnant of Israel saved. Why wait for the last days for a remant saved?-
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Start blessing Israel today!

 

[JustaServant]

No, I’m not interested in answering any of your “Show me in the text” “Where is 1948” questions. They are childish questions. You’ll probably be waiting a long, long time for anyone to answer them.

Translation: I cannot answer them, so I won’t even try.

 

[Lev23]

Oh really?

“The Church” in OT times was in the context of “The Chosen People” as the universal priesthood of God’s people (the laiety) taken together with the priestly lineage (levitical) in the daily social interaction law and in the community worship at the Synagogues and Temple through the ministerial priesthood.

This is not substantially different in form than today in the Catholic Church - the same concept of God’s Chosen People (a holy nation a priestly people set aside for God). But it is now open to all peoples (Jew and Gentile) and the grain and animal sacrifices replaced with the One Holy Sacrifice of Christ himself as pure unblemished Lamb of God. The concept of Church is progressively family, nation and God’s people. This is not at all a foreign and mysterious concept to the Jews and why it was so easy for the first Jewish converts to make the connection and enter into it.

James

Yes, really.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You only show how disconnected you really are for what God is doing at the present moment to restore his original covenant nation, Israel. Therefore all views dispensationist are laughable to you.

FYI, at this moment there is a remnant of Israel saved. Why wait for the last days for a remant saved?-
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Start blessing Israel today!

You just don’t seem to “get it” Lev. God HAS been saving a remnant of Israel from THE VERY BEGINNING. Who do you think STARTED the early Church? It was Christianized JEWS! Good gracious. My son, wake up and smell the frankincense. The Catholic Church was founded on Jewish apostles and the Jewish converts. These are THE start of the REMNANT - and there are more Jews converting to Catholicism than ever before. In the final days when the two witnesses come to teach the Jews just before Christ’s 2nd comming then ALL the remaining Jews will convert in mass. After wailing and bitterly repenting in grave sorrow for having pierced He who was sent to restore them to glory they will enter into the One True Church - the Catholic Church in mass.

Here - check out these lists of Jewish Converts:
adherents.com/largecom/fam_jewish_catholics.html
salvationisfromthejews.com/alljews.html

Start Blessing The Lord who in His Mercy has not entirely obliterated The Jews for rejecting Him and breaking His covenants. Bless The Catholic Church for holding to the true faith for 2,000 years of persecution and constantly asking for Jews to repent and come into Her.

James

 

[Writer]

I’m one of those people who can never think of the right thing to say until the next day. But, this is not one of those times, I’m still drawing a blank.

One of my friends from work is a Evangelical Protestant. She is a strong believer in dispensationalism. For her, most everything in the news is a biblical prophesy of the end times. She goes on about a one world government and the antichrist, etc. It’s her favorite topic. I just politely smile and half listen to her until the subject changes. That is until today.

She was rambling on about something in Revelations as a prophecy of some current event. Then she asked me if I believe in the end times prophesy of Revelations and could I see those prophecies coming true in what’s going on today. I usually avoid this kind of conversation because I’m not a very good apologist. I stumbled along the best I could saying something about Revelation being written in symbolic language and people living during the war or some other catastrophe might have argued at the time that that was the ‘end times’ etc. I repeated 1 Thessalonians 5:2 “For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief at night.”

She said, “It was prophesied that Jesus will come again and he hasn’t yet. That’s proves prophecy is still going on.” I didn’t know what to say to that one and I still don’t. It just seems like a really weird thing to say.

She was obviously disappointed and became indignant and left. I know her well enough to say with certainty this topic will come up again and she’ll try to convert me to her way of thinking.

That’s were you guys come in. Thoughts?

You might want to buy Carl E. Olson’s book entitled “Will Catholics Be Left Behind?” Also, Knights of Columbus has a really well-written pamphlet short book on Revelations by Father Bruce Vawter. It looks like it can be found online at scribd.com/doc/273375/Revelation-A-Divine-Message-of-Hope . When I was explaining the different emphasis or understanding concerning end times between Catholics and Protestants, I also found this article helpful:catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp .

One intersting aside from when we had the pleasure to speak with Carl Olson when he was visiting a neighboring parish was that, if you really are honest about it, the idea presented within a “pre-tribulational” view implies a third coming of Christ. This is because Christ supposedly comes first at the Rapture and then again at the judgement or Armagedon. Even Protestant writers such as Dale Moody argued against this heretical view, but it remains popular–especially from the Protestants some Catholics are quick to categorize as “Fundamentalists.”

 

[Lev23]

Translation: I cannot answer them, so I won’t even try.

No… your questions are childish.

Concerning Gods restoration of Israel, you want to know where “1948” is at in scripture. Don’t you know the exact times of God are not for us to know?

You went from fundamental preacher to catholic and you still don’t know this?

 

[CentralFLJames]

No… your questions are childish.

*Mark 10:15
“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
*

You might be too far above heaven in your adult-hood to be a part of it.

James

 

[Writer]

You might want to buy Carl E. Olson’s book entitled “Will Catholics Be Left Behind?” Also, Knights of Columbus has a really well-written pamphlet short book on Revelations by Father Bruce Vawter. It looks like it can be found online at scribd.com/doc/273375/Revelation-A-Divine-Message-of-Hope . When I was explaining the different emphasis or understanding concerning end times between Catholics and Protestants, I also found this article helpful:catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp .

One intersting aside from when we had the pleasure to speak with Carl Olson when he was visiting a neighboring parish was that, if you really are honest about it, the idea presented within a “pre-tribulational” view implies a third coming of Christ. This is because Christ supposedly comes first at the Rapture and then again at the judgement or Armagedon. Even Protestant writers such as Dale Moody argued against this heretical view, but it remains popular–especially from the Protestants some Catholics are quick to categorize as “Fundamentalists.”

I wanted to add lastly that, as a former Protestant, this emphasis placed on end times is really divisive and distracting. While as a Catholic it can all be a little entertaining to hear heated discussions between pre-tribulationists and post-tribulationists, what’s lost is what is really the most important: Christ.

 

[Lev23]

*Mark 10:15
“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
*

You might be too far above heaven in your adult-hood to be a part of it.

James

Let me clear up for you(again) the context I was referring to-

Hebrews 5:11-14
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

One of the elementry truths of God’s Word is his faithfulness to Israel, even while he judges and disciplines them, and most importantly, restores them.

You can say this my personal interpretation, but look at the prophecies and you will see over and over and over-
Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel, Isreal, Israel, Israel, Israel, …

 

[Lev23]

You just don’t seem to “get it” Lev. God HAS been saving a remnant of Israel from THE VERY BEGINNING. Who do you think STARTED the early Church? It was Christianized JEWS! Good gracious. My son, wake up and smell the frankincense. The Catholic Church was founded on Jewish apostles and the Jewish converts. These are THE start of the REMNANT - and there are more Jews converting to Catholicism than ever before. In the final days when the two witnesses come to teach the Jews just before Christ’s 2nd comming then ALL the remaining Jews will convert in mass. After wailing and bitterly repenting in grave sorrow for having pierced He who was sent to restore them to glory they will enter into the One True Church - the Catholic Church in mass.

Yada Yada Yada. Is Jesus Christ literally in all his glory coming back to Jerusalem to reign over Israel and this world before he hands the Kingdom over to the Father?

Here - check out these lists of Jewish Converts:
adherents.com/largecom/fam_jewish_catholics.html
salvationisfromthejews.com/alljews.html

Thanks for the links. Though I wish I can show you in person congregation after congregation of Jews worshipping Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Start Blessing The Lord who in His Mercy has not entirely obliterated The Jews for rejecting Him and breaking His covenants. Bless The Catholic Church for holding to the true faith for 2,000 years of persecution and constantly asking for Jews to repent and come into Her.

James

Baruch Hashem, Hamashiach Yeshua, Baruch Hashem Adonai!

Another all important FYI for you to consider and learn from. Jesus Christ will never reject Israel for breaking his covenants. Man’s written and oral traditions might say so, but the God of Israel’s Words say otherwise. Another great lesson that God’s Word is above all.

**Jeremiah 31:31-37
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

  It will not be like the covenant 
   I made with their forefathers 
   when I took them by the hand 
   to lead them out of Egypt, 
   because they broke my covenant, 
   though I was a husband to them, " 
   declares the LORD. 

  "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel 
   after that time," declares the LORD. 
   "I will put my law in their minds 
   and write it on their hearts. 
   I will be their God, 
   and they will be my people. 

   No longer will a man teach his neighbor, 
   or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' 
   because they will all know me, 
   from the least of them to the greatest," 
   declares the LORD. 
   "For I will forgive their wickedness 
   and will remember their sins no more." 

  This is what the LORD says, 
   he who appoints the sun 
   to shine by day, 
   who decrees the moon and stars 
   to shine by night, 
   who stirs up the sea 
   so that its waves roar— 
   the LORD Almighty is his name: 

  "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," 
   declares the LORD, 
   "will the descendants of Israel ever cease 
   to be a nation before me." 

   This is what the LORD says: 
   "Only if the heavens above can be measured 
   and the foundations of the earth below be searched out 
   will I reject all the descendants of Israel 
   because of all they have done," 
   declares the LORD.**

Notice the last six lines. Next time you want to single out the Jews and how people like me should be thankful Jesus has not “entirely obliterated” them for breaking His covenants with him, consider this-

**Romans 11:11:24
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!**

 

[Lev23]

I wanted to add lastly that, as a former Protestant, this emphasis placed on end times is really divisive and distracting. While as a Catholic it can all be a little entertaining to hear heated discussions between pre-tribulationists and post-tribulationists, what’s lost is what is really the most important: Christ.

How can you say Christ is lost in discussions when the topic at hand is when Jesus Christ is coming for his Church?

 

[Lev23]

One intersting aside from when we had the pleasure to speak with Carl Olson when he was visiting a neighboring parish was that, if you really are honest about it, the idea presented within a “pre-tribulational” view implies a third coming of Christ. This is because Christ supposedly comes first at the Rapture and then again at the judgement or Armagedon. Even Protestant writers such as Dale Moody argued against this heretical view, but it remains popular–especially from the Protestants some Catholics are quick to categorize as “Fundamentalists.”

Wrong. There are only two comings of Jesus Christ. Each time is to Israel. He gathers his Church to himself in the air before His coming back to Israel to judge the nations for their treatment of Israel and to reign in Israel from Jerusalem, before he hands the Kingdom over to the Father.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Lev you are preaching to the choir here and making strawman arguments.

How many times do we Catholics have to tell you that the remnant of the Jews will be converted in the last days before the 2nd comming? THIS has been a Catholic teaching from the beginning. What you don’t seem willing to acknowledge is that the conversion means that the Jews enter into the Catholic Church. It may be that Jews get their own rite but will embrace the same faith as do Catholics. Those who do not will not be part of the elect.

James

 

[Zooey]

Translation: I cannot answer them, so I won’t even try.

:sad_yes:

You just don’t seem to “get it” Lev. God HAS been saving a remnant of Israel from THE VERY BEGINNING. Who do you think STARTED the early Church? It was Christianized JEWS! Good gracious. My son, wake up and smell the frankincense. The Catholic Church was founded on Jewish apostles and the Jewish converts. These are THE start of the REMNANT - and there are more Jews converting to Catholicism than ever before. In the final days when the two witnesses come to teach the Jews just before Christ’s 2nd comming then ALL the remaining Jews will convert in mass. After wailing and bitterly repenting in grave sorrow for having pierced He who was sent to restore them to glory they will enter into the One True Church - the Catholic Church in mass.

Here - check out these lists of Jewish Converts:
adherents.com/largecom/fam_jewish_catholics.html
salvationisfromthejews.com/alljews.html

Start Blessing The Lord who in His Mercy has not entirely obliterated The Jews for rejecting Him and breaking His covenants. Bless The Catholic Church for holding to the true faith for 2,000 years of persecution and constantly asking for Jews to repent and come into Her.

James

:clapping:

How can you say Christ is lost in discussions when the topic at hand is when Jesus Christ is coming for his Church?

Lev, you have gotta start listening without that filter over your thinking.
I have been exactly where you are, & it was tough to admit that I had been wrong.
Interestingly enough, it was the Bible teachers who had convinced me of dispensationalism in the first place, who were responsible for getting me to search the Scriptures (instead of the Gospel According To Hal Lindsay), and discover that the Bible simply doesn’t teach any such thing.
And the reason that dispensationalism looks away from Christ, is by getting us all so wound up in thehttp://bestsmileys.com/sad/8.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/clueless/5.gif side issues, instead of pointing us where we belong, which is here:
http://bestsmileys.com/religous/6.gif

 

[JustaServant]

:sad_yes:
:clapping:
Lev, you have gotta start listening without that filter over your thinking.
I have been exactly where you are, & it was tough to admit that I had been wrong.
Interestingly enough, it was the Bible teachers who had convinced me of dispensationalism in the first place, who were responsible for getting me to search the Scriptures (instead of the Gospel According To Hal Lindsay), and discover that the Bible simply doesn’t teach any such thing.
And the reason that dispensationalism looks away from Christ, is by getting us all so wound up in thehttp://bestsmileys.com/sad/8.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/clueless/5.gif side issues, instead of pointing us where we belong, which is here:
http://bestsmileys.com/religous/6.gif

One of the best and most scholarly books I read that drove the nails into the coffin of dispensationalism for me was “What the Bible Teaches About the Promised Messiah”
by James E. Smith. The author is a reformed Protestant. There are many others, but this fellow did his scriptural homework. I’ve long since given it away, but its still available on Amazon.

 

[JustaServant]

*Mark 10:15
“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
*

You might be too far above heaven in your adult-hood to be a part of it.

James

The faith of a Catholic may be of a child. But to be a Catholic, one must be an adult.