Dispensationalist inconsistincies with and

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .and now the real Israel, the true Israel, the People, the people of God is the Church . . . .

Let’s just start with this one issue. You are saying the real, true Israel is the people of God, the Church.

All labels aside (Supersessionism, Dispensationalism, etc., it seems according to the CCC, Israel refers to the Jewish people as well as the Church/New Israel. And it seems the Messiah’s coming is suspended, until his recognition by “all Israel.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ’s coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed”.568

674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. 569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 **St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”,**572 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.573
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#674

Is this correct?

I’m not arguing; just asking,

Pen

 

[joshua_b]

Supersessionism was introduced in post #14…I have explained that the Church has no official teaching on this and the post states that the OHCAC has a memo…refer to that post for this topic. I believe it is as relevant as the article for Anna has stated she knows little of Dispensationalism and for that this post has been good.

I am concerned with those that embrace Dispensationalism covertly or overtly or without care. The Evangelical Free Church has it as part of their statement of Faith and it is glossed over noting that what is most important is a relationship with Jesus and yet is part of their statement of Faith…sort of makes you wonder what a statement of Faith is worth.

I get it, and I apologize for losing sight(post 14 was a long time ago…lol). My statement was directed at Iggy, who seemed to imply that supersessionism somehow reaches back to the antiquity of Christianity.

At any rate, this conversation (not with you Coptic, just in general) makes my head hurt, so I’m going to recuse myself from this thread for a while.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I get it, and I apologize for losing sight(post 14 was a long time ago…lol). My statement was directed at Iggy, who seemed to imply that supersessionism somehow reaches back to the antiquity of Christianity.

At any rate, this conversation (not with you Coptic, just in general) makes my head hurt, so I’m going to recuse myself from this thread for a while.

joshua_b,
It’s so strange. You read my mind. I was thinking exactly that: “This makes my head hurt.” uch: —And not from the technical terms, but from misunderstandings. Coptic is my friend. I think we just kinda got off on the wrong foot on this thread.

Anna

 

[IggyAntiochus]

I think the discussion may be breaking down here due to a misunderstanding of terms. Supersessionism is one of those “loaded” terms that is not always used according to its strict academic definition.

There may have been theologians in the early Church that believed in elements of supersessionism, but it has not been the official teaching of the Church.

I think the dispensationalists got a hold of it and started turning it into doctrine, and that is where the association really stuck.

I think one of the problems may be that so far in the discussion, supersessionism is being treated as a negative idea. I don’t see it that way at all. There are elements of supersessionism all throughout the Scriptures. You alluded to Hebrews, which clearly teaches that the Mosaic covenant is abolished and has been abrogated by the New Covenant. Elements of the moral thought of the Old Testament are continuous with the New Covenant, but the ceremonies and civil ordinances are done away with completely. Israel as a nation with a specific covenant attached to it has been done away with. The Mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant dependent on the obedience of the nation of Israel. That covenant was broken as quickly as it was formed.

I wouldn’t call dispensationalism supersessionist per se (I guess depending on how you define the term). They believe Israel as a nation with covenant promises still exists.

 

[joshua_b]

joshua_b,
It’s so strange. You read my mind. I was thinking exactly that: “This makes my head hurt.” uch: —And not from the technical terms, but from misunderstandings. Coptic is my friend. I think we just kinda got off on the wrong foot on this thread.

Anna

So I guess if i start a thread on the Torah code, you won’t be participating huh?

 

[CopticChristian]

Let’s just start with this one issue. You are saying the real, true Israel is the people of God, the Church.

All labels aside (Supersessionism, Dispensationalism, etc., it seems according to the CCC, Israel refers to the Jewish people as well as the Church/New Israel. And it seems the Messiah’s coming is suspended, until his recognition by “all Israel.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ’s coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed”.568

674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. 569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 **St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”,**572 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.573
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#674

Is this correct?

I’m not arguing; just asking,

Pen

Anna,

The Jews were dispersed and Dispensationalist will invoke the remnant as being something different…those that are out there to return will return by grace.

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Let’s just start with this one issue. You are saying the real, true Israel is the people of God, the Church.

All labels aside (Supersessionism, Dispensationalism, etc., it seems according to the CCC, Israel refers to the Jewish people as well as the Church/New Israel. And it seems the Messiah’s coming is suspended, until his recognition by “all Israel.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ’s coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed”.568

674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. 569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 **St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”,**572 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.573
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#674

Is this correct?

I’m not arguing; just asking,

Pen

You replied:

Anna,

The Jews were dispersed and Dispensationalist will invoke the remnant as being something different…those that are out there to return will return by grace.

. . . .and now the real Israel, the true Israel, the People, the people of God is the Church . . . .

I asked, all labels aside (Supersessionism, Dispensationalism, etc.), it seems according to the CCC, Israel refers to the Jewish people as well as the Church/New Israel. And it seems the Messiah’s coming is suspended, until his recognition by “all Israel.” Is this correct according Catholic teaching?

Pen

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Anna,

Here is a site that you can view to understand that the OHCAC does not see itself as replacing as the Reformed formulate in Supersessionism…rather fulfilling.

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2011/01/catholic-church-is-israel.html

Consider that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages…this counters the dispensational view. It was always there, just not seen and it denies replacement since it didn’t replace anything it fulfilled something that was always there and not understood…

There are no memo’s, there may be understanding, and the tragedy is that Supersessionism is falsely ascribed to the OHCAC as abide has done.

Here is a discussion concerning Supersessionism and is Protestant in nature attributing the beliefs to the ECF however notice that the OHCAC is not named and Calvin is…

theologicalstudies.citymax.com/f/Variations_within_supersessionism_for_ETS.doc

The Reformed would say the same thing. The church is the fulfillment and continuation of Israel. I always tell people that the Church didn’t replace anything. The Church is the continuation of the Covenant people of God. The Reformed take the pertinent passages in Romans seriously, and there is a definite expectation that the Jewish race will one day come to recognize the Lord Jesus as their Messiah. Read Ian Murray “The Puritan Hope”. But this is not the same as dispensationalism, which not only sees modern day Israel as fulfillment of prophecy, but expects a return to the shadows and types of the Old Covenant. When the Jewish people come to faith in Messiah, this will lead to even greater blessing to the Church, the True Israel, as they are our older brethren. I have read both Dispensational and Reformed views, and now am reading a Catholic book on the subject “the Rapture Trap”. I find that so far I have agreed with most of what the author says.

 

[JustaServant]

Quotes By John Hagee :
one of the best known promoters of the ‘Two Covenant’ Doctrine’

(“San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism,” Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec. 6, pg. 1. PFO Article, “The Other Gospel Of John Hagee”)

Quote:
“I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.”

Quote:
“I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”

Quote:
In fact, trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They have a faith structure. Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity."

Quote:
“The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses. I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption. “The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not.

Quote:
“The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah, it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews!”

Quote:
“There are Jewish people who have relationship with God right now according to the election of grace. (Romans 11:5) … The Jewish people are judicially blinded to the identity of Messiah… Question: If God blinded the Jewish people to the identity of Jesus as Messiah, how could He send them to hell for not seeing what he had forbidden them to see? … Inasmuch as God has blinded them to the identity of Messiah, targeting the Jewish people for mass evangelism is fruitless.”

(John Hagee letter (on Cornerstone Church letterhead) to Erwin M. de Castro of the Christian Research Institute, October 18, 1994, pg. 5, copy on file. Christian Research Institute Article on John Hagee)

No Jew in his or her right mind should support anything Hagee says. His dispensationalist theology (he fancies himself a “prophecy expert”, whatever that is) teaches that all the Jews in the world will immigrate to Israel…where God will promptly wipe them out in the “tribulation”.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

Here is a site that you can view to understand that the OHCAC does not see itself as replacing as the Reformed formulate in Supersessionism…rather fulfilling.

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2011/01/catholic-church-is-israel.html. . .

Quotes from your link in blue type:

COPYRIGHT - All Rights Reserved.
Materials and excerpts from this blog may be copied and distributed freely provided they remain unaltered and credit is given to “The Catholic Knight” blog with a hypertext link back to the original source page. catholicknight.blogspot.com/2011/01/catholic-church-is-israel.html

**The Catholic Church Is ISRAEL **". . . .The Church, particularly the Catholic Church, is Israel. There is no other Israel today, in a Biblical sense, than the Church. The Church is also Zion. There is no other Zion, in a spiritual sense, than the Church. The Church is also the New Jerusalem. There is no other “Jerusalem,” in a spiritual sense than the Church. . . ."

“. . . .It had to be this way you see. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant, and established a New Covenant that puts us all on equal footing. He didn’t destroy the Old Covenant - he FULFILLED it! The Old Covenant still remains, but is fulfilled in Christ, and must be understood fully in the context of Christ. . . . .”

CCC:
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been
revoked.

Re Pope John Paul II
The Holy Father has stated this permanent reality of the Jewish people in a remarkable theological formula, in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on 17 November 1980: “…the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked…”jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Commission_For_Religious_Relations_With_the_Jews.html

I understand that Israel and the Church are not two separate entities. Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. We, the Gentiles have been grafted in. Hebrews Chapter 11 is one of the most revealing passages in Holy Scripture regarding our relationship with Israel.

“. . . . .St. Paul gives us a prophetic glimpse of the future of the Jewish people. While the Church gains more Jewish converts in every era, Paul tells us that a day will come when the Jewish people will accept the gospel en mass, thus completing the Church and bringing the final epic of human history to a close. . . . .”

I agree that a time will come when the Jewish people will accept the Gospel “en mass.”

Some Dispensationalists believe this will be through a Divine Revelation given to the Jewish people, revealing Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.

“. . . .The fallacy continues to teach that the modern day Jews of today are still “Israel” and that Israel is a completely separate entity from the Church. . . .”

This is the part I don’t understand compared with The Catechism of the Catholic Church. The CCC speaks of the Jews outside of the Catholic Church as Israel. Not only does it call them Israel, the CCC connects the Messiah’s coming with Jewish belief in Jesus.

CCC: 674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.

St. Paul reveals the Mystery of Christ:
Ephesians 3: 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Ephesians 3: 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

We, the Gentiles, are fellow heirs, having been grafted in; and through the Church the manifold wisdom of God is made known.

“. . . .Dispensationalism leads Christians to support Zionism. Zionism in turn leads to the blind support of the Nation of Israel and all its policies, regardless of their effect. . .”

I haven’t really sorted out the whole issue regarding Israel as bound to land or “dirt,” as it was called. My hesitation here [apart from my ongoing “recovery” from half a century of Protestant indoctrination ] is that the Jewish identity is so tied to the physical land of Israel, believed to be their inheritance from God. Jews are returning to Israel; and regardless of where they are in the world, their eyes remain on the land of Israel. Judaisms links religion with peoplehood and land.

JEWISH-CHRISTIAN RELATIONS
The seventh annual meeting was held in Madrid in April 1978. . . . .The members of the two delegations were, however, aware that there did not exist a perfect parallelism between the stand of the two sides because Judaism, unlike Christianity, links religion with peoplehood and land. . . .
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_0_10125.html

I need to do more reading and pondering. . .

Comments?

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

The Reformed would say the same thing. The church is the fulfillment and continuation of Israel. I always tell people that the Church didn’t replace anything. The Church is the continuation of the Covenant people of God. The Reformed take the pertinent passages in Romans seriously, and there is a definite expectation that the Jewish race will one day come to recognize the Lord Jesus as their Messiah. Read Ian Murray “The Puritan Hope”. But this is not the same as dispensationalism, which not only sees modern day Israel as fulfillment of prophecy, but expects a return to the shadows and types of the Old Covenant. When the Jewish people come to faith in Messiah, this will lead to even greater blessing to the Church, the True Israel, as they are our older brethren. I have read both Dispensational and Reformed views, and now am reading a Catholic book on the subject “the Rapture Trap”. I find that so far I have agreed with most of what the author says.

Cajun,
Very interesting. I appreciate the suggestion of “The Rapture Trap.” Our Rector talked about the fallacy of the “Rapture” in one of his classes.

I do agree that the Church is a fulfillment–Christ having fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. And that we are a continuation of the Covenant people, having been grafted in through Christ. And I do believe that all of Israel will come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Quotes By John Hagee :
one of the best known promoters of the ‘Two Covenant’ Doctrine’

(“San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism,” Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec. 6, pg. 1. PFO Article, “The Other Gospel Of John Hagee”)

Quote:
“I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.”

Quote:
“I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”

Quote:
In fact, trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They have a faith structure. Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity."

Quote:
“The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses. I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption. “The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not.

Quote:
“The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah, it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews!”

Quote:
“There are Jewish people who have relationship with God right now according to the election of grace. (Romans 11:5) … The Jewish people are judicially blinded to the identity of Messiah… Question: If God blinded the Jewish people to the identity of Jesus as Messiah, how could He send them to hell for not seeing what he had forbidden them to see? … Inasmuch as God has blinded them to the identity of Messiah, targeting the Jewish people for mass evangelism is fruitless.”

(John Hagee letter (on Cornerstone Church letterhead) to Erwin M. de Castro of the Christian Research Institute, October 18, 1994, pg. 5, copy on file. Christian Research Institute Article on John Hagee)

No Jew in his or her right mind should support anything Hagee says. His dispensationalist theology (he fancies himself a “prophecy expert”, whatever that is) teaches that all the Jews in the world will immigrate to Israel…where God will promptly wipe them out in the “tribulation”.

Interesting quotes. I had posted earlier about having read one of Hagee’s books. My Jewish friends told me about his support of Israel, but they were suspicious of his motives–and I would say rightfully so.

Anna

 

[CopticChristian]

Quotes from your link in blue type:

CCC:
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been
revoked.

Re Pope John Paul II
The Holy Father has stated this permanent reality of the Jewish people in a remarkable theological formula, in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on 17 November 1980: “…the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked…”jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Commission_For_Religious_Relations_With_the_Jews.html

I understand that Israel and the Church are not two separate entities. Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. We, the Gentiles have been grafted in. Hebrews Chapter 11 is one of the most revealing passages in Holy Scripture regarding our relationship with Israel.

I agree that a time will come when the Jewish people will accept the Gospel “en mass.”

Some Dispensationalists believe this will be through a Divine Revelation given to the Jewish people, revealing Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.

This is the part I don’t understand compared with The Catechism of the Catholic Church. The CCC speaks of the Jews outside of the Catholic Church as Israel. Not only does it call them Israel, the CCC connects the Messiah’s coming with Jewish belief in Jesus.

CCC: 674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.

St. Paul reveals the Mystery of Christ:
Ephesians 3: 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Ephesians 3: 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

We, the Gentiles, are fellow heirs, having been grafted in; and through the Church the manifold wisdom of God is made known.

I haven’t really sorted out the whole issue regarding Israel as bound to land or “dirt,” as it was called. My hesitation here [apart from my ongoing “recovery” from half a century of Protestant indoctrination ] is that the Jewish identity is so tied to the physical land of Israel, believed to be their inheritance from God. Jews are returning to Israel; and regardless of where they are in the world, their eyes remain on the land of Israel. Judaisms links religion with peoplehood and land.

JEWISH-CHRISTIAN RELATIONS
The seventh annual meeting was held in Madrid in April 1978. . . . .The members of the two delegations were, however, aware that there did not exist a perfect parallelism between the stand of the two sides because Judaism, unlike Christianity, links religion with peoplehood and land. . . .
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_0_10125.html

I need to do more reading and pondering. . .

Comments?

Peace,
Anna

Pen,

I cannot find the specific source or context for this statement so to understand it, it has to be read in context…I do see that in what is written, it is about people, not land.

in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on 17 November 1980: “…the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked…”

 

[Anna_Scott]

Pen,

in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on 17 November 1980: “…the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked…”

Coptic,
I didn’t really understand it as referring to the land.

I tried to find it in context too. When I entered Pope John Paul II with the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked; I found all sorts of sites critical of this statement and of Pope John Paul II.

I would like to find the document to read the comment in context. If you find it, please let me know.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Pen,

I cannot find the specific source or context for this statement so to understand it, it has to be read in context…I do see that in what is written, it is about people, not land.

Coptic,
I just found it on the Vatican website:

**JERUSALEM, 19-23 NOVEMBER, 2001

PRESENTATION BY CARD. WALTER KASPER
**
The Jewish-Christian Dialogue:
Foundations, Progress, Difficulties and Perspectives

II.

. . .Eleven years later, in 1985, the Commission published the Notes on the Correct Way to Present Judaism in Preaching and Catechesis in the Catholic Church. Here there is a concern that Judaism is not presented in Catholic teaching as being merely an historical and superseded reality. **It refers to “the permanent reality of the Jewish people … the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked … as a living reality closely related to the Church.” **

The claim for dialogue was very fruitful. The dialogue has developed over the last decades on many levels, national and international, popular and academic, educational and political. Whilst the Church Fathers wrote Tractatus contra Judaeos, several modern theologians write Tractatus de Judaeos in the sense of Tractatus pro Judaeos. Throughout nearly two millennia Christians have tended to characterise Judaism as a failed religion or, at best, a religion that prepared the way for, and is completed in, Christianity. **Now we are aware of God’s unrevoked covenant with his people and of the permanent and actual salvific significance of Jewish religion for its believers. . . **.

I’m especially surprised by these two statements:

"It refers to “the permanent reality of the Jewish people … the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked … as a living reality closely related to the Church.”

"Now we are aware of God’s unrevoked covenant with his people and of the permanent and actual salvific significance of Jewish religion for its believers. . . ".

I’ll have to take some time and carefully read the document.

Peace,
Anna

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic,
I didn’t really understand it as referring to the land.

I tried to find it in context too. When I entered Pope John Paul II with the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked; I found all sorts of sites critical of this statement and of Pope John Paul II.

I would like to find the document to read the comment in context. If you find it, please let me know.

Anna

Anna,

I don’t where you obtained this information however it appears that someone wants to propogate this statement and attribute it to John Paul II. If clarity was wanted then the source would be provided. I suggest that the source from which you obtained this information be examined. Provide the source for clarity.

thanx Pen

 

[AbideWithMe]

Coptic,
I just found it on the Vatican website:

**JERUSALEM, 19-23 NOVEMBER, 2001

PRESENTATION BY CARD. WALTER KASPER
**
The Jewish-Christian Dialogue:
Foundations, Progress, Difficulties and Perspectives

II.

. . .Eleven years later, in 1985, the Commission published the Notes on the Correct Way to Present Judaism in Preaching and Catechesis in the Catholic Church. Here there is a concern that Judaism is not presented in Catholic teaching as being merely an historical and superseded reality. **It refers to “the permanent reality of the Jewish people … the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked … as a living reality closely related to the Church.” **

The claim for dialogue was very fruitful. The dialogue has developed over the last decades on many levels, national and international, popular and academic, educational and political. Whilst the Church Fathers wrote Tractatus contra Judaeos, several modern theologians write Tractatus de Judaeos in the sense of Tractatus pro Judaeos. Throughout nearly two millennia Christians have tended to characterise Judaism as a failed religion or, at best, a religion that prepared the way for, and is completed in, Christianity. **Now we are aware of God’s unrevoked covenant with his people and of the permanent and actual salvific significance of Jewish religion for its believers. . . **.

I’m especially surprised by these two statements:

"It refers to “the permanent reality of the Jewish people … the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked … as a living reality closely related to the Church.”

"Now we are aware of God’s unrevoked covenant with his people and of the permanent and actual salvific significance of Jewish religion for its believers. . . ".

I’ll have to take some time and carefully read the document.

Peace,
Anna

Anna–

I’ve read this before, but can you post the link right to the whole document?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

I don’t where you obtained this information however it appears that someone wants to propogate this statement and attribute it to John Paul II. If clarity was wanted then the source would be provided. I suggest that the source from which you obtained this information be examined. Provide the source for clarity.

thanx Pen

I found the source in the Vatican website as noted in my last post.

Coptic,
I just found it on the Vatican website:

**JERUSALEM, 19-23 NOVEMBER, 2001

PRESENTATION BY CARD. WALTER KASPER
**
The Jewish-Christian Dialogue:
Foundations, Progress, Difficulties and Perspectives

II.

. . .Eleven years later, in 1985, the Commission published the Notes on the Correct Way to Present Judaism in Preaching and Catechesis in the Catholic Church. Here there is a concern that Judaism is not presented in Catholic teaching as being merely an historical and superseded reality. **It refers to “the permanent reality of the Jewish people … the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked … as a living reality closely related to the Church.” **

The claim for dialogue was very fruitful. The dialogue has developed over the last decades on many levels, national and international, popular and academic, educational and political. Whilst the Church Fathers wrote Tractatus contra Judaeos, several modern theologians write Tractatus de Judaeos in the sense of Tractatus pro Judaeos. Throughout nearly two millennia Christians have tended to characterise Judaism as a failed religion or, at best, a religion that prepared the way for, and is completed in, Christianity. **Now we are aware of God’s unrevoked covenant with his people and of the permanent and actual salvific significance of Jewish religion for its believers. . . **.

I’m especially surprised by these two statements:

"It refers to “the permanent reality of the Jewish people … the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked … as a living reality closely related to the Church.”

"Now we are aware of God’s unrevoked covenant with his people and of the permanent and actual salvific significance of Jewish religion for its believers. . . ".

I’ll have to take some time and carefully read the document.

Peace,
Anna

Edited to add the Link: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011123_kasper-jews-christians_en.html

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna–

I’ve read this before, but can you post the link right to the whole document?

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011123_kasper-jews-christians_en.html

 

[Anna_Scott]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011123_kasper-jews-christians_en.html

In section V. we find the quote of Pope John Paul II: "Jews as “the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked.”

**JERUSALEM, 19-23 NOVEMBER, 2001

PRESENTATION BY CARD. WALTER KASPER**

The Jewish-Christian Dialogue:
Foundations, Progress, Difficulties and Perspectives
V.

We Remember cannot be the last word. Pope John Paul II himself has been at the forefront of the ongoing dialogue with Jews and Judaism. He has been an example of the Catholic Church’s developing relationship of reconciliation with the Jewish community. This has grown gradually since his visit to Mainz, Germany, on November 17, 1980, when he referred to Jews as “the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked”, but truly blossomed with his historic visit to the Synagogue of Rome on April 13, 1986. It was the first visit ever of a pope to a Synagogue.*

During that visit to the Synagogue John Paul II stated:

“The Jewish religion is not ‘extrinsic’ to us, but in a certain way is ‘intrinsic’ to our own religion. With Judaism, therefore, we have a relationship that we do not have with any other religion. You are our dearly beloved brothers and, in a certain way, it could be said that you are our elder brothers.” . . . . Link: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011123_kasper-jews-christians_en.html

Anna