Disproving God? part1

[lucy_fur]

Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman

Introduction

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

Proving a Universal Negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.



I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

Defining YHWH

Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.

God’s creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.

Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

 

[lucy_fur]

Perfection Begets Imperfection

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.



What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

The Freewill Argument

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.



Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.



Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

Belief More Important Than Action
Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

 

[lucy_fur]

Perfection’s Imperfect Revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.



No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

Contradictory Justice

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

Contradictory History

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

Unfulfilled Prophecy

The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.



The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

The Omniscient Changes the Future

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.

The Omniscient is Surprised

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.



We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

The Conclusion of the matter

I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.



Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:

“You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned.”

If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.

As for me and my house, we shall choose reality.

 

[wmscott]

Your profile name “Lucy Fur”

I certainly do not think you will win over an converts with this dribble, and I really don’t see anyone taking this post serious. So get behind me Satan!

 

[thistle]

Your profile name “Lucy Fur”

I certainly do not think you will win over an converts with this dribble, and I really don’t see anyone taking this post serious. So get behind me Satan!

I agree with you. The crazies always come out of the woodwork at Christmas and Easter.

 

[lucy_fur]

If you cast all these facts aside, you are effectively showing your willingness to believe despite everything against it.

 

[wmscott]

Hi thistle, I see you are in the PI. I spent a lot of time there back in my Navy days. How about sending me some pancit and lumpia my way. I love the food from PI

Merry Christmas

 

[juliamajor]

If you cast all these facts aside, you are effectively showing your willingness to believe despite everything against it.

Wow- your logic is underwhelming me.
Where are you thought processes. Is This your A game? You’ve use your closing line a few times. Please say something ORIGINAL!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I agree with you. The crazies always come out of the woodwork at Christmas and Easter.

Because the rest of us are in Church!

Ooo, I’m convinced. Them arguments is rock solid! Yup.

 

[judechild]

If you cast all these facts aside, you are effectively showing your willingness to believe despite everything against it.

Hi lucy fur ,

I guess the reason we don’t see threads that start off with “Disproving God” as particularily successful is because it’'s easy to blow up something and present it as clear truth. For example, there’s a youtube video that claims to “disprove God in three minutes!” If it was that easy, we’d expect it to have been brought up in earlier times, and subsequently the existence of God would join the ranks of fairy tales. The video, however, made at least three fatal assumptions, so one has to wonder if sensationalism is the best strategy in anything.

We have faith, dear, but not blind faith. If you want to try and convert us to a different understanding, you are free and welcome to do so; but it will have to be in a mutually respectful environment, or nobody will get anywhere. I’d be perfectly happy to discuss the existence of God with you, so here’s my hand. Take it or don’t, but please be more respectful of the intelligence of others than to post another person’s arguement on a catholic website.

Happy Holidays!

 

[just_me_1]

seriously “lucy” what’s your point? why come to a Catholic site and tell us there is no God? why not go to a supermarket and tell the shoppers there is no such thing as milk? it’s just as stupid of an argument. if you’re looking to find God, there will be many here to help (and pray for you, like it or not!), if not, go troll somewhere else.

 

[lucy_fur]

“My God and my Guns” don’t you just love it! so peaceful and jesus-like. So meek and mild.

 

[just_me_1]

“My God and my Guns” don’t you just love it! so peaceful and jesus-like. So meek and mild.

thanks I try. Merry CHRISTmas!

 

[John7]

"My Guns jesus

pooooooooooooooor lucy-fur

 

[Abeyta85]

When I see posts or youtube videos of people who can supposedly “disprove” the existence of God, I Feel so embarrassed for actually believing in such gullible nonsense. I don’t dislike the person or persons who try to disprove them, I just hope one day, they will open there hearts and find God!

I am so happy I see the truth now that I have returned to the Catholic Church, I pray others will find there way, or way back.

God Bless and Merry CHRISTmas!

 

[I_Seek_2]

There is a very simple way to prove God’s existence (maybe not the biblical version).

1. We are here, therefore we must have been created, following this logic we take it back to the beginning of creation, and following it back we come to this question, if God created everything what created God, effect must have cause. We take this back and back until our heads get dizzy and we say forget about it. So we’ve established that all things must have a creator or this law must be broken. So lets go back to the beginning of time(and before) There is nothing absolute nothing. There is only one nothing since 2 nothing are both something. Now since we are here on earth, we can assume that we were created, and that if the beginning of the universe was nothing, that nothing had to be a some sort of creating force to get us from that nothingness to where we are today. Hence it don’t matter what we think since we are here we must have been created(or there wouldn’t be anything) and we must have been a creator.
2. God Created himself:
   We can assume that all things were created by God. God created many complex things. We can assume that God is very knowledgeable, hence his creations. Now we need to figure out how he came upon this knowledge. ether:
3. He already had it or
4. He acquired it

If you pick 1 than God himself has no purpose to exist, he cannot gain new experiences, nor gain new knowledge, and for that matter why would he want to love us, he’s read this book Infinite times, hes felt this many times, why would he create anything? he has no needs hence no purpose. Why does he do anything if he has no purpose in doing so?

If you pick 2 than all those purposes are true, and he had to acquire that knowledge.
So we must define knowledge and how to gain it. Knowledge is anything acquired by our thoughts in our minds. Knowledge, experience, wisdom, intelligence, are all gained this way. We have to think about something to remember it, and think about it again remember the experience. We have to think to solve problems. Think to learn from our mistakes ans so on. Who is it that controls thinking. The entity that is thinking. the intent to think is the only thing needed to think. Hence the only thing needed for God to be able to acquire the knowledge to do anything is to have the intention to think. The intention to think( the will to think) is really the only thing God is then.

I Read the book: The Freedom of Choice, by Tom Chalko

Oh and Merry Christmas

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

seriously “lucy” what’s your point? why come to a Catholic site and tell us there is no God? why not go to a supermarket and tell the shoppers there is no such thing as milk? it’s just as stupid of an argument. if you’re looking to find God, there will be many here to help (and pray for you, like it or not!), if not, go troll somewhere else.

Never mind ‘miss fur,’ I’m with you.

Satan’s cheerleaders usually ignore the fact that Jesus drove the money-lenders from the temple.

 

[Louemma]

Lucy Fur
Your not positive there is no God and you will never be 100% sure about God’s existence and you can not prove 100% that God, in fact don’t exists and do you know why?Because God exists and he has revealed himself to those who seek him and those who Love him.
However the funny thing about the name you choose shows that you really know nothing about God or Satan for that matter and do you know whybecause even the demons believe and tremble.
However I believe your not here to try and disprove the existence of God,deep down your here hoping that somehow, someone can prove to you he’s real because in order for you to believe you need proof.
I will say the proof your seeking you will not find unless you humble your heart and seek God because if you want to really know him and if you start by learning about his son Jesus Christ you’ll find him.You start seeking who Jesus is and you will find the Father.The choice you make is for you alone.Nobody can prove to you there is a God because the ones who know him have found him the same way I suggested to you.Learn of Jesus.
Trying to disprove God to his children is foolish because we know him and you don’t but I hope you find him because a life without the Lord is a hopeless life indeed.There is one thing I can tell you that is 100% true and that being “You will meet God face to face one day.”

 

[Detales]

Though I myself am convinced that God IS, I have to agree with Lucy that the christianist god is a figment of the imagination. And I’m surprised that the rebuttals to Lucy’s post are at least as weak, if not worse, than the lameness attributed to her post. Not one of her arguments is refuted by other than dismissal on grounds of faith, or weak one valued logic. I’m not exactly enamored of Lucy’s attitude, either, but I guess there is a morbid curiosity on the part of many as to why and how people can accept the propositions of Catholicism. And I have no doubt that there is a degree of kind intent on the part of many non-Catholics on here to extend a hand to those in need of religious sanity, something clearly lacking on parts of CA, given some topics on these fora. Some questions asked in the name of “faith and morals” border on psychopathology, imho, and it is no wonder that many are concerned about the root cause of these manifestations. One of those root causes would be the contorted beliefs surrounding the ideas Catholics hold as being descriptive of a god.

For instance, one of her god fearing or worshiping critics who accuses her of drivel is a member of an organization named after someone who cut the hands off an entire tribe of Amerinds, and who claims that one of his favorite writings is about Jesus of Nazareth when it is quite certain that Nazareth was founded about 100 years after the alleged ministry of Ieshua. A wonderful foundation for claiming drivel.

Another, who is a teacher, only scoffs, without so much as a single reference to any idea put forth, or any reasonable retort. Another claims “faith, but not blind faith,” which is a contradiction in terms because blindness is an intrinsic factor in faith or it would be called “knowledge.” Another who is bitter and living in “God’s Country” as if there was one, or anywhere, that wasn’t. And yet another says, in effect, god exists “because.”

Again, remembering that I am not an atheist by any stretch, how do any of the non-arguments in these posts actually address Lucy Fur’s allegations? As a former Catholic, (now I see ever more clearly why) I am embarrassed at the attempts on here that are below even what I experienced as answers in Catholic grade and high schools. Whatever else has happened here, the answers given to Lucy are of the same kind as she herself put forth in your estimations, or worse. Much worse. To me that means a complete lack of certainty on any useful grounds on the part of Lucy Fur’s critics, even if she herself is wrong.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Again, this is supposed to convince us of what exactly?

And how…?