Disrespect

[wina]

They have tried and it does not support the centre as you think it would. I am sorry about that but it is reality.

You want them to remain open yet to cut the amount of money coming in to stay open.

So you say you want it to stay open yet what you want them to do is to limit themselves so that they will have to close and sell.

More contradictory thoughts.

I am sorry but we deal with reality here. We are already considering closing our retreat center in NJ.

I am sorry but it is what it is.

I am appalled that you would rather see this place gone and a casino there than the centre to be there.

Hi, I haven’t read all posts in this thread, but it’s very interesting one.
BysCath, you are right by saying we deal with reality here but I totally agree with Shoshana that said “Let them bring back the carmelite spirit”. Because many things are being said and acted only for reason reality. Which reality that we want to follow?
What I want trying to say that I’ve seen many things are done by the reason we need to live in reality. But don’t we have faith? don’t we trust in God that He will provide all because He knows the best? Yes, God can use anything/anyone to show his ways but please remind that Satan will do everything to fool us. Then our weapon is only prayers and prayers and prayers.

I hope that I’m not rude and offend people but if I did, please accept my apology which I have no mean to offend anyone.

I read these words and they are very good ones:

“Conscience formation is a profound and a necessary part of life. It enables us to distinguish holiness from expedience. When we turn our consciences over to authority- any authority- just because it is an authority, we run the risk of betraying Jesus for personal gain”.

Peace and God bless
Wina

 

[joandarc2008]

I am not going to approach the center again for sure, no matter where the authorityis …not anymore. Two letters was enough. I believe that I have done what needed to be done at the time.

But after this explanation by Brother and Brother, I will desist. It does make sense in what they say but the danger is still there whether they give it or not. But our fraternal love is more important to me right now…not me being right.

Thank you for your patience. I do not want a casino where the center is. We have lost the convent next door to it. It would be a terrible thing if a very tall building would replace it as the center is beautiful.

Yes, I am sad…so sad…

Why not put the same energy that you put into letter writing into fundraising for the Center so they do not have to rent to New Age??

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Hi, I haven’t read all posts in this thread, but it’s very interesting one.
BysCath, you are right by saying we deal with reality here but I totally agree with Shoshana that said “Let them bring back the carmelite spirit”. Because many things are being said and acted only for reason reality. Which reality that we want to follow?
What I want trying to say that I’ve seen many things are done by the reason we need to live in reality. But don’t we have faith? don’t we trust in God that He will provide all because He knows the best? Yes, God can use anything/anyone to show his ways but please remind that Satan will do everything to fool us. Then our weapon is only prayers and prayers and prayers.

I hope that I’m not rude and offend people but if I did, please accept my apology which I have no mean to offend anyone.

I read these words and they are very good ones:

“Conscience formation is a profound and a necessary part of life. It enables us to distinguish holiness from expedience. When we turn our consciences over to authority- any authority- just because it is an authority, we run the risk of betraying Jesus for personal gain”.

Peace and God bless
Wina

Wina,
You are not being rude at all. You make a good point.

The centre has tried to bring in Carmelite spirituality classes and retreats but they do not fill up as far as I have seen, they do not cover the costs necessary to keep the centre running. So what do we do? Keep doing something that does not work while trying to have “faith” that it will? That is one of the definitions of insanity, doing something over and over with the hope that the outcome will be different next time.

We are looking at our retreat centers on the provincial level and one of the three is looking like it will be closed. Which will leave Niagara Falls and Darian, Il, as the only two we will continue to run.

 

[JReducation]

I understand Wina’s point regarding faith anf prayer. I’ll throw in trust too. That’s how my own community functions. We go from day to day. We don’t have a fixed income. It works for us.

However, there is a difference too that I must mention just to be fair to the Carmelites. We don’t own property. When our community was founded it was based on the ancient Franciscan rule. We may not own property either collectively or individually. We live in rented houses or borrowed and we support the ministries of the local Church, except for parish work. We dont’ do that.

When a religious community owns property, the whole issue of good stewardship enters the picture. The Carmelite Friars assigned to the Center don’t own it. The Order does. These friars have to give an account to their brothers on how well they care for what has been entrusted to their care. I can see their situatioin too. It’s not an easy one. They have been given this property to run in trust for the brothers. What do do when the resources are not there is always a very stressful question.

I do believe that God provides, because he does so for us every day. We don’t have much, a pallet to sleep, one habit each and two pairs of pants, underwear, a breviary and bible. The rest is borrowed or rented. Even the computer that I use belongs to the Respect Life Office of the Archdiocese, where I work. God has always put food on the table and provided just enough to pay rent and utilities. But there is also a statement in the scriptures that says, “Though shall not test the Lord thy God.”

I guess it’s one thing to ask God to provide for the needs of a ministry and a community that is viable and another thing to ask God for help in a ministry that does not appear to be viable. God will support whatever the Church needs at the time and in that place. The question is whether or not the center is viable and whether or not God intends to use it for his prupose. If he intends to use it, he will make it viable. If not, he will let it die out. The bigger question is not what should the Carmelites do to run their center, but what is God’s will for this ministry. I’m sure that the Carmelites are praying for guidance. We should join our prayers to their own, so that God’s will becomes clear.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I don’t think that we despair, but we certainly have concerns. I too have been the target on some threads, though I also have to admit that there are more people who are very kind to me. But what is happening is that some posters feel that they have a right to be rude to brothers, sisters, deacons and priests on the forum.

They’re not just rude to religious and clergy. I’m an RCIA director and some of the threads here that talk about RCIA are equally horrible. We’re all out to undermine the Church by teaching heresy. RCIA is a waste of time. Non-Catholics coming into the Church know far more than we do. Etc., etc., etc.

I love the Church and I love my faith. I do my best to teach with the mind and heart of the Church. The Catechism is a regular part of our sessions. But sometimes I look at the messages here and just want to give up.

And then I go to one of our weekly sessions and see the real people I work with. I see how the Holy Spirit is working in their lives. I see the changes in them as they progress toward the sacraments. And I realize how blessed I am to be a part of all of this, how good God is to me in letting me see his work and how people are responding to his action in their lives. And I remember that the people here can be good and holy, but also can completely forget that they’re dealing with people, not simply with words on a screen.

 

[JReducation]

I have always said that when we speak to people we must remember that we cannot come across as self-appointed bishops or religious superiors.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That is one of the definitions of insanity, doing something over and over with the hope that the outcome will be different next time.

I messed this up a bit.

It should read, “one of the definitions of insanity is doing something over and over expecting a different outcome.”

Not hoping for a different outcome, expecting it is what is wrong.

Hoping for more revenue is a good thing but one must make it work, hope does not pay the bills, unfortunately.

 

[Shoshana]

I We should join our prayers to their own, so that God’s will becomes clear.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

*Sho coming in very quietly…*Would it be God’s will to bring in spirituality contrary to His? Literally??? Because that is what New Age is all about…

Sho tip-toeing away…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

*Sho coming in very quietly…*Would it be God’s will to bring in spirituality contrary to His? Literally??? Because that is what New Age is all about…

Sho tip-toeing away…

I do not see it as us bringing it in.

They come to rent the space.

Can we afford to turn it away?

We do not promote it, do we? If we do then that is a different issue and I am against that.

 

[Shoshana]

I do not see it as us bringing it in.

They come to rent the space.

Can we afford to turn it away?

We do not promote it, do we? If we do then that is a different issue and I am against that.

Unfortunately, Brother, they do promote it on the internet…and in so many other ways. The letter above that I wrote of the courses given was ‘advertized’ on their website…I do research, I cannot just go on any ‘feeling’ of something is wrong in Denmark. Although I can discern it. When those who give seminars on something that is based by ‘channelling’ by a spirit named Jesus (The course in Miracles), one begins to really worry. There are so many examples, that it spins one’s head.

If you mean advetizing as promoting, well it is happening…as we speak…all the time.

Because by this same thinking, Brother, a white witch (and they do exist) can rent the center for a week-end and do whatever a white witch does without maybe the center ever knowing. Who knows if this witch does not channell? does not do divinizations, etc? How would the center really know?

Can you imagine what that would bring in our center?

And none of this is illegal…or immoral according ot the New Agers and even most catholics as they are not educated in the dangers of such activity. Do you not agree?

A lot of our clerics scoff at New Age…at their own detriment…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I do not see placing it on the website as promotion.

I am sure that part of the deal with renting and using the space is adding these sort of things to the website and other places where they put information about the retreat centre and what is going on at it.

I am sorry but I just do not see it as you do.

It is either this or we close up shop and leave.

 

[wina]

Wina,
You are not being rude at all. You make a good point.

The centre has tried to bring in Carmelite spirituality classes and retreats but they do not fill up as far as I have seen, they do not cover the costs necessary to keep the centre running. So what do we do? Keep doing something that does not work while trying to have “faith” that it will? That is one of the definitions of insanity, doing something over and over with the hope that the outcome will be different next time.

We are looking at our retreat centers on the provincial level and one of the three is looking like it will be closed. Which will leave Niagara Falls and Darian, Il, as the only two we will continue to run.

Bro.David,
Thank you. Yes, I do understand what you try to explain it. But I believe that God has His own plan whether the center will be kept or closed. What we need to ask that what God’s will for this center. But I can say this because I’m not in your position (I don’t wear your shoes, means I don’t really feel what you feel about it although I try to understand it totally). Will pray for this center situation.

 

[wina]

I understand Wina’s point regarding faith anf prayer. I’ll throw in trust too. That’s how my own community functions. We go from day to day. We don’t have a fixed income. It works for us.

However, there is a difference too that I must mention just to be fair to the Carmelites. We don’t own property. When our community was founded it was based on the ancient Franciscan rule. We may not own property either collectively or individually. We live in rented houses or borrowed and we support the ministries of the local Church, except for parish work. We dont’ do that.

When a religious community owns property, the whole issue of good stewardship enters the picture. The Carmelite Friars assigned to the Center don’t own it. The Order does. These friars have to give an account to their brothers on how well they care for what has been entrusted to their care. I can see their situatioin too. It’s not an easy one. They have been given this property to run in trust for the brothers. What do do when the resources are not there is always a very stressful question.

I do believe that God provides, because he does so for us every day. We don’t have much, a pallet to sleep, one habit each and two pairs of pants, underwear, a breviary and bible. The rest is borrowed or rented. Even the computer that I use belongs to the Respect Life Office of the Archdiocese, where I work. God has always put food on the table and provided just enough to pay rent and utilities. But there is also a statement in the scriptures that says, “Though shall not test the Lord thy God.”

I guess it’s one thing to ask God to provide for the needs of a ministry and a community that is viable and another thing to ask God for help in a ministry that does not appear to be viable. God will support whatever the Church needs at the time and in that place. The question is whether or not the center is viable and whether or not God intends to use it for his prupose. If he intends to use it, he will make it viable. If not, he will let it die out. The bigger question is not what should the Carmelites do to run their center, but what is God’s will for this ministry. I’m sure that the Carmelites are praying for guidance. We should join our prayers to their own, so that God’s will becomes clear.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you Bro.JR. I agree with your statement. I will join my prayer to it.

P.S. I love St.Francis of Assisi live very much. He is one of my favorite saints, especially when he put his trust in God totally. Wow…it has really touched my heart deeply.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you Bro.JR. I agree with your statement. I will join my prayer to it.

P.S. I love St.Francis of Assisi live very much. He is one of my favorite saints, especially when he put his trust in God totally. Wow…it has really touched my heart deeply.

But in order to do this one has to let go of many things too. God does not intervene in providing us everything that we want. He provides everything that we need. There is a big difference. So, we place our trust that God provides what we need and what is good for the Church. Right now we’e trying to open a new community house. As the outgoing superior, I was asked where to put the community. I said, “I have no idea where God wants it. We’ll have to ask him and then go look. We’ll know when we find it.”

We have the depedence that God will show us where he wants the new house to be. But we also know that God wants us to cooperate with him. We keep our eyes and ears open for news of a good place to live. When we hear about a house for rent, we check it out. So far, none of the ones that we checked out are the one that God wants. Each has something that is in conflict with the rule or the ministry. But we do not worry. God will provide a house, just as he provided the one where we now live.

My point is that our Holy Father Francis taught us to depend totally on God. But Francis also did his part. He prayed. He asked questions of men more learned than him. He consulted with the Church and the scriptures. He and the first brothers worked to make a living. When they didn’t make enough money for food, then they begged, because they knew that God would feed them either through work or alms.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wina]

But in order to do this one has to let go of many things too. God does not intervene in providing us everything that we want. He provides everything that we need. There is a big difference. So, we place our trust that God provides what we need and what is good for the Church. Right now we’e trying to open a new community house. As the outgoing superior, I was asked where to put the community. I said, “I have no idea where God wants it. We’ll have to ask him and then go look. We’ll know when we find it.”

We have the depedence that God will show us where he wants the new house to be. But we also know that God wants us to cooperate with him. We keep our eyes and ears open for news of a good place to live. When we hear about a house for rent, we check it out. So far, none of the ones that we checked out are the one that God wants. Each has something that is in conflict with the rule or the ministry. But we do not worry. God will provide a house, just as he provided the one where we now live.

My point is that our Holy Father Francis taught us to depend totally on God. But Francis also did his part. He prayed. He asked questions of men more learned than him. He consulted with the Church and the scriptures. He and the first brothers worked to make a living. When they didn’t make enough money for food, then they begged, because they knew that God would feed them either through work or alms.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes, I understand it. We need to do our part and let the rest in God’s hand.

 

[joandarc2008]

Unfortunately, Brother, they do promote it on the internet…and in so many other ways. The letter above that I wrote of the courses given was ‘advertized’ on their website…I do research, I cannot just go on any ‘feeling’ of something is wrong in Denmark. Although I can discern it. When those who give seminars on something that is based by ‘channelling’ by a spirit named Jesus (The course in Miracles), one begins to really worry. There are so many examples, that it spins one’s head.

If you mean advetizing as promoting, well it is happening…as we speak…all the time.

Because by this same thinking, Brother, a white witch (and they do exist) can rent the center for a week-end and do whatever a white witch does without maybe the center ever knowing. Who knows if this witch does not channell? does not do divinizations, etc? How would the center really know?

Can you imagine what that would bring in our center?

And none of this is illegal…or immoral according ot the New Agers and even most catholics as they are not educated in the dangers of such activity. Do you not agree?

A lot of our clerics scoff at New Age…at their own detriment…

I ask this question again. Instead of spending all this time writing letters which has not gotten you anywhere (see definition of Insanity above) why not spend the time promoting fundraising activites in order to raise funds to allow them to “Bring back the Carmellite Spirit.”

Too many times we as laity want to provide issues with no recommendations for resolution.

Right now in my very small parish we have a Priest who is already retired. We know when he actually retires that he will not be replaced due to the decrease in vocations and our Parish will become a mission run by another and staffed by laity (sorry if my wording is not correct). None of us show the type of disrespect to our Priest that is talked about on these forums. It does not mean that we agree with him 100% of the time or like 100% of his decisions - but most of us will have the courtesy to go talk about the whys and wherefores one on one before opening our mouths. When your Parish life depends on one clergy being happy and staying you tend to mind your p’s and q’s a lot better on a day to day basis and be a lot more greatful for what you do have.

 

[JReducation]

I ask this question again. Instead of spending all this time writing letters which has not gotten you anywhere (see definition of Insanity above) why not spend the time promoting fundraising activites in order to raise funds to allow them to “Bring back the Carmellite Spirit.”

Too many times we as laity want to provide issues with no recommendations for resolution.

Right now in my very small parish we have a Priest who is already retired. We know when he actually retires that he will not be replaced due to the decrease in vocations and our Parish will become a mission run by another and staffed by laity (sorry if my wording is not correct). None of us show the type of disrespect to our Priest that is talked about on these forums. It does not mean that we agree with him 100% of the time or like 100% of his decisions - but most of us will have the courtesy to go talk about the whys and wherefores one on one before opening our mouths. When your Parish life depends on one clergy being happy and staying you tend to mind your p’s and q’s a lot better on a day to day basis and be a lot more greatful for what you do have.

I’m reading what you’re saying and thinking about the topic of the thread. It makes me wonder if that’s what many of the younger religious men, especially, find so distasteful about parish work and would rather go back to the charism of their founders, even if it means living in homeless shelters and walking the streets in the freezing cold. Our young men are not dumb. They see the way that the older religious are placed in very difficult positions that they cannot resolve. They would much rather be in a position where they can serve the needs of the people. Since most religius orders and congregations of men were not founded to do parish work in the first place, the younger men coming in have no obligation to commit to that. I get many vocation inquiries and the first question that I get is about our life, not about our work. That comes later. The young men are interested in living the religious life without the constant complaining and criticism from the outside. They’re looking for what religious life promises, internal peace and silence. You can’t have that if you have people throwing problems at you and demanding that you solve them, but with no solutions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shoshana]

There seems to be a lot more out right disrespect on Catholic Answers Forums, especially in the Vocations forum (but it is everywhere), towards religious who chose to post here.

It seems that many laity seem they think they know more about religious life and other things and are down right disrespectful and nasty to the religious who are taking their time to post here to try and help people understand what religious life actually is.

This is saddening to me and has made me reexamine my time spent here.

It is not really all that worthwhile to be here when I am attacked personally when I make a comment.

If you disagree with something we say then disagree with it and state why, no need to be disrespectful and to make ad hominem attacks.

Which are against the forums rules but not fully enforced.

You know me well enough Brother that I have never shown any disrespect to any relgiious person on these fora or in real life. I have made wrong judgments here and there ( twice to be exact) and seeing that I was wrong, I thoroughly apologized.

I love the carmel spirit. I love the saints held therein. I am passionate of their spirituality. Writing two letters to a center is not obsessive by any stretch of the imagination. That is all I have done.

If anyone has supported this center with money and prayers, it is myself. And that would prove that I am sincere. Obviously, this will come to nothing, and I will let it go…again.

Please be aware of my continued prayers for your formation as another thread proves that also how much I do love our priests, consecrated brothers and sisters…

Perpetual Prayer for Piests/Vocations/ Vocations…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=414187

And to give a little hint here, one is not under direction for over 25 years and if I was known to be disrespecful to our clergy or religious, I wouldl certainly be put in my place…and fast. My director is the liaison for the bishop when it comes to the charismatic renewal, he is also an associate to Madonna House, he gives courses at the center, etc etc etc …he is well known. We (my director) also worked together for the conference that I spoke about in the dangers of New Age by bringing in a well-known evangelist who was involved in it. Actually, my priest was able to bring in about 16 priests on another different day to hear her personnally…where they had the privacy of being together without any laity (well, I was there but just serving them all). One of these priests was from the center.

Enough said…God bless…

 

[joandarc2008]

I’m reading what you’re saying and thinking about the topic of the thread. It makes me wonder if that’s what many of the younger religious men, especially, find so distasteful about parish work and would rather go back to the charism of their founders, even if it means living in homeless shelters and walking the streets in the freezing cold. Our young men are not dumb. They see the way that the older religious are placed in very difficult positions that they cannot resolve. They would much rather be in a position where they can serve the needs of the people. Since most religius orders and congregations of men were not founded to do parish work in the first place, the younger men coming in have no obligation to commit to that. I get many vocation inquiries and the first question that I get is about our life, not about our work. That comes later. The young men are interested in living the religious life without the constant complaining and criticism from the outside. They’re looking for what religious life promises, internal peace and silence. You can’t have that if you have people throwing problems at you and demanding that you solve them, but with no solutions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I think what it comes down to is “Faith without works is dead.” I as laity can believe all I want but that belief will not give me the true fulfillment of the Holy Spirit on a daily basis. However when I do God’s work, however I am called to do that - in my case as a member of the laity seeking further education and employment in the Church - in some cases in medicine in others religious orders then it is like consistently going to Mass without partaking in the Sacraments. (Just an analogy - lets not go off another thread - ) When I do works on a daily basis then it brings me closer and allows me greater happiness as I am truly partaking in what God has met for me. I once heard a homily that really touched me. I am sure we have heard the old addage of “The talent you have is God’s gift to you, what you do with it is your gift to Him.” Well the priest took it one step further and said “The talent you have is God’s gift to you, and if you don’t use it for Him you are comitting a sin.” When you put it that way it kind of makes you think about where true happiness lies and how narrow that path really is.

 

[JReducation]

I think that you have the right of it. We must be spiritually nurtured. But that’s for another thread. In keeping with the topic of this thread, what often happens is that people have expectations of others that are unrealistic. The expectations may be unrealistic because the person does not have the resources. You can’t get water from a stone, unless you’re Moses. They may be unrealistic because that’s not the way that a particular religious order or congregation was founded. People join a religious community because they feel at home with its charism. You can’t go making demands that are not part of that charism. People can’t give what they’re not allowed to give. Then the expectation is unrealistic. Other times the expectations are unrealistic because the people making demands are not offering to put their gifts to use. If you have the gift to solve a problem, please put it on the table and let’s see what we can do with it.

What often happens on these threads and in real life, but more on the threads, is that when religious say these things we are disrespected and we’re told how religious life works and what religious should and should not be doing. I can understand why the young men entering religious life often ask, if they’ll have to go to a parish. In my community we say, “No.” Because Franciscans were not founded to do parish work. We sent these guys to the Franciscans of the Reform, Franciscans of the Immaculate, Capuchins, Franciscans of Penance, Franciscans of the Eternal Word, Franciscans of the Eucharist, Franciscans of Life, any branch that is not committed to parishes. These young men have seen what happens in their own parishes.

What frequently happens with diocesan priests is that they work in very small teams of 2 or 3 men, sometimes just one to a parish. They can be very gun shy, because if something that the laity starts falls apart and people get hurt or angry, the ball falls on the priest’s lap. They have enough to deal with, without taking on another responsibility. Some have been burnt in the past and they respond gruffly or with indifference, which they should not do. They should just explain the prior experiences.

We had a lot of deacons, several priests, brothers and sisters on CAF and they have gradually left. The PMs that fly back and forth is the same thing. “I will not deal with people who don’t want to understand, but just want to drive home their point and tell everyone what to do.” It’s a pity. I know some of these guys and they are really good guys who are very interested in following the Pope’s idea regarding the internet and technology for evangelization. My non-Franciscan friends tease me. They ask me why I stay on CAF. I always remind them that the Franciscan family was founded for two reasons, to live as a brotherhood and to convert Catholics in order to rescue the Church. We’d like to see other people convert. But we’re happy if we can convert one Catholic.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF