Disrespect

[Shoshana]

I think that you have the right of it. We must be spiritually nurtured. But that’s for another thread. In keeping with the topic of this thread, what often happens is that people have expectations of others that are unrealistic. The expectations may be unrealistic because the person does not have the resources. You can’t get water from a stone, unless you’re Moses. They may be unrealistic because that’s not the way that a particular religious order or congregation was founded. People join a religious community because they feel at home with its charism. You can’t go making demands that are not part of that charism. People can’t give what they’re not allowed to give. Then the expectation is unrealistic. Other times the expectations are unrealistic because the people making demands are not offering to put their gifts to use. If you have the gift to solve a problem, please put it on the table and let’s see what we can do with it.

What often happens on these threads and in real life, but more on the threads, is that when religious say these things we are disrespected and we’re told how religious life works and what religious should and should not be doing. I can understand why the young men entering religious life often ask, if they’ll have to go to a parish. In my community we say, “No.” Because Franciscans were not founded to do parish work. We sent these guys to the Franciscans of the Reform, Franciscans of the Immaculate, Capuchins, Franciscans of Penance, Franciscans of the Eternal Word, Franciscans of the Eucharist, Franciscans of Life, any branch that is not committed to parishes. These young men have seen what happens in their own parishes.

What frequently happens with diocesan priests is that they work in very small teams of 2 or 3 men, sometimes just one to a parish. They can be very gun shy, because if something that the laity starts falls apart and people get hurt or angry, the ball falls on the priest’s lap. They have enough to deal with, without taking on another responsibility. Some have been burnt in the past and they respond gruffly or with indifference, which they should not do. They should just explain the prior experiences.

We had a lot of deacons, several priests, brothers and sisters on CAF and they have gradually left. The PMs that fly back and forth is the same thing. “I will not deal with people who don’t want to understand, but just want to drive home their point and tell everyone what to do.” It’s a pity. I know some of these guys and they are really good guys who are very interested in following the Pope’s idea regarding the internet and technology for evangelization. My non-Franciscan friends tease me. They ask me why I stay on CAF. I always remind them that the Franciscan family was founded for two reasons, to live as a brotherhood and to convert Catholics in order to rescue the Church. We’d like to see other people convert. But we’re happy if we can convert one Catholic.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Just as an aside Brother, there are two priests who were participants on CAF (that i knew) who are on Facebook now. We are all connected there. Lots of evangelizing there going on. Even Madonna House (whose foudnress Catherine de Hueck Doherty was a fransciscan teritiary) has their site there also…there is one priest for sure that belong to MH is a participant there.

But I do not know why they have left CAF…we are all connected there though…and loving it!

 

[JReducation]

Just as an aside Brother, there are two priests who were participants on CAF (that i knew) who are on Facebook now. We are all connected there. Lots of evangelizing there going on. Even Madonna House (whose foudnress Catherine de Hueck Doherty was a fransciscan teritiary) has their site there also…there is one priest for sure that belong to MH is a participant there.

But I do not know why they have left CAF…we are all connected there though…and loving it!

Some of my friends who are either priests or religious have told me that FACEBOOK is very pleasant. I have never joiined it. Maybe I should try it. Not that I plan on leaving CAF, just want to see what FACEBOOK is about.

However, the point of this thread was to help people see how some things can be direspectful, even when a person thinks that they are right. My piece of advice in dealing with clergy and religious is always ask what are they allowed to do? What is their charism? Try to get to know a little about the person before you place expectations on them and not have them met. Because when your expectations are not met, you geel hurt, disappointed, or angry and that’s when you may say something that is disrespectful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

I have not followed this thread closely- but I do have one thing to point out, and I am not the least bit interested in arguing after I say this-

As far as actually fund-raising for the center- it seems pretty apparent why a Catholic would not want to do this…how would you know that your money would not be used for an event that promotes a false religion, one that leads people astray to the ruin of their souls? This topic is one that I feel very passionately about having at one time sadly been involved in some occultic practices- and the Lord being EVER MERCIFUL having rescued me. New age, etc. are deceptions of the evil one and I would be very reticient to support such things even indirectly. It seems similar to giving money to an organization that does do some good things but also does abortion- tricky moral ground when there are plenty of other charities in need of donations. (Including religious communities which need our support!) I suppose one could argue that New age and abortion are not the same- but killing of the soul and killing of the body are at least analogous of each other, and neither is good.

Peace of Christ to all- those who will understand where I am coming from, and those who will not. I mean no offense. Blessed Holy Week. Please pray for our Holy Father!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I have not followed this thread closely- but I do have one thing to point out, and I am not the least bit interested in arguing after I say this-

As far as actually fund-raising for the center- it seems pretty apparent why a Catholic would not want to do this…how would you know that your money would not be used for an event that promotes a false religion, one that leads people astray to the ruin of their souls? This topic is one that I feel very passionately about having at one time sadly been involved in some occultic practices- and the Lord being EVER MERCIFUL having rescued me. New age, etc. are deceptions of the evil one and I would be very reticient to support such things even indirectly. It seems similar to giving money to an organization that does do some good things but also does abortion- tricky moral ground when there are plenty of other charities in need of donations. (Including religious communities which need our support!) I suppose one could argue that New age and abortion are not the same- but killing of the soul and killing of the body are at least analogous of each other, and neither is good.

Peace of Christ to all- those who will understand where I am coming from, and those who will not. I mean no offense. Blessed Holy Week. Please pray for our Holy Father!

As far as I know we are not funding these things. We provide a place that they pay to use.

As for fund raising, if the money was raised with something in mind rather than just general fund raising you can be sure we would honor that.

Though, I know of no fund raising plans for our retreat centers, if they can not stand on their own then maybe they should be closed. This is something that we are looking at closely right now with the possibility of closing one of our three retreat centers in the province.

 

[joandarc2008]

As far as I know we are not funding these things. We provide a place that they pay to use.

As for fund raising, if the money was raised with something in mind rather than just general fund raising you can be sure we would honor that.

Though, I know of no fund raising plans for our retreat centers, if they can not stand on their own then maybe they should be closed. This is something that we are looking at closely right now with the possibility of closing one of our three retreat centers in the province.

I believe Elizabeth_Anne was trying to answer the question I posed to Shoshanna which I still have not gotten an answer for. Shoshanna- I will respectfully pose it again-

If you are upset that the New Age is having events at the retreat center and it is a lack of funding that is making this necessary than why not offer to fundraise strictly for the Catholic events so that the New Age would not be a neccessity? If you can spend time letter writing - why can’t you spend time fundraising for this purpose? Is there something that we are missing?

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am trying to understand. It is in my nature that if I see a problem that I feel needs to be addressed I am willing to put my time and my money where my mouth and my pen are. I don’t have much of either but I will give every last bit I have to God.

 

[Shoshana]

I believe Elizabeth_Anne was trying to answer the question I posed to Shoshanna which I still have not gotten an answer for. Shoshanna- I will respectfully pose it again-

If you are upset that the New Age is having events at the retreat center and it is a lack of funding that is making this necessary than why not offer to fundraise strictly for the Catholic events so that the New Age would not be a neccessity? If you can spend time letter writing - why can’t you spend time fundraising for this purpose? Is there something that we are missing?

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am trying to understand. It is in my nature that if I see a problem that I feel needs to be addressed I am willing to put my time and my money where my mouth and my pen are. I don’t have much of either but I will give every last bit I have to God.

Two letters that were written pales compared to the money and time spent at this center as I took many, many courses. I also attended retreats on the week-end for different reasons. I also bought many, many gifts and books were bought from their gift store. Yes, my support far outweighs writing 2 letters that took me a half of an hour in all…

But now that I know the protocol, I will not do so again…not to the center nor the bishop.

I never felt you were disrespectful…

 

[JReducation]

When dealing with a religious house, bishops usually have very little or nothing to do with it, even when it’s in his diocese. The proper chain of command is the local superior, then the major superior at the regional level, then the superior general. To write to the bishop can be seen as going over the heads of the other persons in authority.

A provincial superior of men has the same powers that a bishop has, even though he is not a bishop. If the men are monks, then the abbot has the same power.

A bishop has authority over ministry in his diocese, provided that it’s a ministry that belongs to the diocese. This includes parishes, parrochial schools, diocesan schools, diocesan retreat centers, or anything else that’s diocesan. It makes no difference if it’s run by religious. They simply work for the diocese. But if the miinistry is their own, that falls under their superiors and they deserve the respect of hearing about concerns first.

My advice when dealing with religious, when in doubt, contact the superior first. Because even if the ministry belongs to the diocese, the bishop usually works with the superior to fix the problem. Or call the chancery and ask who is in charge. They will tell you immediately.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wina]

When dealing with a religious house, bishops usually have very little or nothing to do with it, even when it’s in his diocese. The proper chain of command is the local superior, then the major superior at the regional level, then the superior general. To write to the bishop can be seen as going over the heads of the other persons in authority.

A provincial superior of men has the same powers that a bishop has, even though he is not a bishop. If the men are monks, then the abbot has the same power.

A bishop has authority over ministry in his diocese, provided that it’s a ministry that belongs to the diocese. This includes parishes, parrochial schools, diocesan schools, diocesan retreat centers, or anything else that’s diocesan. It makes no difference if it’s run by religious. They simply work for the diocese. But if the miinistry is their own, that falls under their superiors and they deserve the respect of hearing about concerns first.

My advice when dealing with religious, when in doubt, contact the superior first. Because even if the ministry belongs to the diocese, the bishop usually works with the superior to fix the problem. Or call the chancery and ask who is in charge. They will tell you immediately.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks Bro.JR about your explanation about it.

No wonder there is nothing will be changed if the superior doesn’t care either. (I’m not talking about this center but I’m talking about some issues regarding another religious house which some people who have vocation leave their vocation because they were shocked to see the way of life there) I’m sorry I don’t mean to disrespect I just try to bring up this issue because it’s very sad to see some people leave their vocations which we really need more people to follow and do these call.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks Bro.JR about your explanation about it.

No wonder there is nothing will be changed if the superior doesn’t care either. (I’m not talking about this center but I’m talking about some issues regarding another religious house which some people who have vocation leave their vocation because they were shocked to see the way of life there) I’m sorry I don’t mean to disrespect I just try to bring up this issue because it’s very sad to see some people leave their vocations which we really need more people to follow and do these call.

We have to be very careful here, because superiors are bound by the vow of obedience. All religious congregations and religious orders have what is called a chapter, usually every three years at the regional level and every six years at the general level. These chapters are like meeting of the congress. The subordinates make decisions and laws at these meetings. They decide how to live the religious life, how to interpret the rule and how to apply the rule. The results are sent to Rome for approval. Once they are approved, the superior is bound under obedience to implement these decisions. In other words, superiors are bound to obey their subordinates, because they must obey what is decided in a canonical chapter and approved by Rome.

This does not mean that there are not religious houses where the religious life needs improvement, because there are. There are many congregations and orders that have wonderful constitutions and statutes, but have houses that don’t follow them as they should.

However, there are also misunderstandings among some men and women who enter religious life. They often enter looking for a perfect situation, which does not exist. What they find is men or women who are struggling, every day, to get closer to the ideal that they have vowed to live. In other words, religious life is a journey; each of us is constantly changing and hopefully getting better. Though there are days when we take a step backward and we have to recover again. A person who is an idealist may be very disappointed and leave. This does not mean that the person abandoned his calling. It means that the person was not called to the religious life.

The sign that you are called to the religious life or to a particular religious order or religious congregation is feeling at home in the community. You can only feel at home when you accept that there is an ideal that we’re trying to reach and there is the reality of where we are. The important thing is that the religious constantly tries to become a holier person according to the constitutions and rules of his community.

It is not a superior’s job to make a community perfect. That is an impossible task. For example, in the Rule of St. Francis he tells us that the job of the superior is to be a Guardian. He is not to govern his brothers, but he is to take care of them and make sure that his brothers have what they need for their physical and spiritual health. The superior can only order what is for the good of the brothers. However, a Franciscan superior has no power to decide what is good for his brothers. Francis left a list of what was good for his sons and he bound all of his successors to follow those admonitions. The only time that the superior can do something different is if all the brothers vote on something. Then the superior has the right to demand that of them. In other words, there is a limit to the power of superiors. Most superiors are to be fathers and servants, not Lords. That’s why monks call their superior Abbot, which means Abba (Father). Franciscans call our superiors Guardians which means Mother. Our superiors are supposed to be our mothers, not our governors. Dominicans and Carmelites have Priors, which means the first among many brothers. But he is a brother who serves his brothers. He is not their King or Lord.

Superiors have to follow rules like everyone else. You may think that the superior does not care. It can happen. But it can also happen that the rules and constitutions of the religious community are written in such a way that there is only so much that a superior can do. For example, my superior can order anything that is in our rule and in our constitution and I have to obey without asking questions. My superior cannot order me to do something that is not in our rule or constitutions. The rule says that he must use the rule and constitutions to guide his governance. St. Francis wrote the rule and we write the constitution that we want to govern us. When Rome approves it, it is given to the superior. Those are his marching orders. He has to make sure that everyone lives by them. Notice that the superior does not make the rules? He has to obey them and make sure that others obey them too.

We’ve had men come thinking that every friar is a clone of St. Francis. They are disappointed. Or they come thinking that they can become exactly like Francis in a short time and they are disappointed. These men leave. These men were never called. They did not have a vocation. If they had had a vocation they would have known that it takes a lifetime to become like Francis and they would have understood that to become like Francis means to love Christ as Francis loved him. This does not happen over night.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wina]

We have to be very careful here, because superiors are bound by the vow of obedience. All religious congregations and religious orders have what is called a chapter, usually every three years at the regional level and every six years at the general level. These chapters are like meeting of the congress. The subordinates make decisions and laws at these meetings. They decide how to live the religious life, how to interpret the rule and how to apply the rule. The results are sent to Rome for approval. Once they are approved, the superior is bound under obedience to implement these decisions. In other words, superiors are bound to obey their subordinates, because they must obey what is decided in a canonical chapter and approved by Rome.

I agreed 100% of it

This does not mean that there are not religious houses where the religious life needs improvement, because there are. There are many congregations and orders that have wonderful constitutions and statutes, but have houses that don’t follow them as they should.

However, there are also misunderstandings among some men and women who enter religious life. They often enter looking for a perfect situation, which does not exist. What they find is men or women who are struggling, every day, to get closer to the ideal that they have vowed to live. In other words, religious life is a journey; each of us is constantly changing and hopefully getting better. Though there are days when we take a step backward and we have to recover again. A person who is an idealist may be very disappointed and leave. This does not mean that the person abandoned his calling. It means that the person was not called to the religious life.

I understand that it’s not about perfect situation but at least the superior follows basic rule which has been approved. And I know a person who left didn’t try to find perfect situation, he only wished that at least basic rule should be followed if not he might leave in his first year but no, he didn’t leave until some years because he really felt home when he was there but certain situation made him decided to leave. I will not tell in detail because it’s not my right to say or judge.

The sign that you are called to the religious life or to a particular religious order or religious congregation is feeling at home in the community. You can only feel at home when you accept that there is an ideal that we’re trying to reach and there is the reality of where we are. The important thing is that the religious constantly tries to become a holier person according to the constitutions and rules of his community.

That’s what exactly what I mean. Should try to become holier. unfortunately it’s not the way of the case

It is not a superior’s job to make a community perfect. That is an impossible task. For example, in the Rule of St. Francis he tells us that the job of the superior is to be a Guardian. He is not to govern his brothers, but he is to take care of them and make sure that his brothers have what they need for their physical and spiritual health. The superior can only order what is for the good of the brothers. However, a Franciscan superior has no power to decide what is good for his brothers. Francis left a list of what was good for his sons and he bound all of his successors to follow those admonitions. The only time that the superior can do something different is if all the brothers vote on something. Then the superior has the right to demand that of them. In other words, there is a limit to the power of superiors. Most superiors are to be fathers and servants, not Lords. That’s why monks call their superior Abbot, which means Abba (Father). Franciscans call our superiors Guardians which means Mother. Our superiors are supposed to be our mothers, not our governors. Dominicans and Carmelites have Priors, which means the first among many brothers. But he is a brother who serves his brothers. He is not their King or Lord.

Superiors have to follow rules like everyone else. You may think that the superior does not care. It can happen. But it can also happen that the rules and constitutions of the religious community are written in such a way that there is only so much that a superior can do. For example, my superior can order anything that is in our rule and in our constitution and I have to obey without asking questions. My superior cannot order me to do something that is not in our rule or constitutions. The rule says that he must use the rule and constitutions to guide his governance. St. Francis wrote the rule and we write the constitution that we want to govern us. When Rome approves it, it is given to the superior. Those are his marching orders. He has to make sure that everyone lives by them. Notice that the superior does not make the rules? He has to obey them and make sure that others obey them too.

That’s exactly what I mean he has to obey them and make sure that others obey them too. But how about if the superior doesn’t follow and obey the rule?

We’ve had men come thinking that every friar is a clone of St. Francis. They are disappointed. Or they come thinking that they can become exactly like Francis in a short time and they are disappointed. These men leave. These men were never called. They did not have a vocation. If they had had a vocation they would have known that it takes a lifetime to become like Francis and they would have understood that to become like Francis means to love Christ as Francis loved him. This does not happen over night.

I totally agree 100% that does not happen over night.

Peace

 

[JReducation]

I agreed 100% of it

I understand that it’s not about perfect situation but at least the superior follows basic rule which has been approved. And I know a person who left didn’t try to find perfect situation, he only wished that at least basic rule should be followed if not he might leave in his first year but no, he didn’t leave until some years because he really felt home when he was there but certain situation made him decided to leave. I will not tell in detail because it’s not my right to say or judge.

That’s what exactly what I mean. Should try to become holier. unfortunately it’s not the way of the case

That’s exactly what I mean he has to obey them and make sure that others obey them too. But how about if the superior doesn’t follow and obey the rule?

I totally agree 100% that does not happen over night.

Peace

Without specific information I can’t tell you if the person lhad a vocation or not. I know that this is private information, so let’s leave it there. But remember, do not be too quick to pass judgment on religious communities based on information from people who leave. Often, people who leave are unhappy and angry. This can affect their perspective and their reporting. On the other hand, there are some people who have some very legitimate complaints and these have to be addressed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wina]

Without specific information I can’t tell you if the person lhad a vocation or not. I know that this is private information, so let’s leave it there. But remember, do not be too quick to pass judgment on religious communities based on information from people who leave. Often, people who leave are unhappy and angry. This can affect their perspective and their reporting. On the other hand, there are some people who have some very legitimate complaints and these have to be addressed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Agreed Bro. I wish I could tell you about it. But I have no right (I’ve promised that I will not tell anyone about it in very detail.). Always pray for him because he still try to find community that is right place as God’s will. Yes, I always try not to be too quick to pass judgment on religious communities based on information from people who leave. But I put it in my prayers. Have faith although there some people are not good in some religious communities but there are hundreds more which are very good. Unfortunately the ones are not good bring bad influence to other people which make them think religious communities are like that. I’m sorry I don’t mean to disrespect and offend anyone, deep inside my heart I always respect religious people even I’ve been discerning about it myself.

 

[Sister_Helena]

Some of my friends who are either priests or religious have told me that FACEBOOK is very pleasant. I have never joiined it. Maybe I should try it. Not that I plan on leaving CAF, just want to see what FACEBOOK is about.

However, the point of this thread was to help people see how some things can be direspectful, even when a person thinks that they are right. My piece of advice in dealing with clergy and religious is always ask what are they allowed to do? What is their charism? Try to get to know a little about the person before you place expectations on them and not have them met. Because when your expectations are not met, you geel hurt, disappointed, or angry and that’s when you may say something that is disrespectful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes, I like Facebook. If you ever venture out there Brother, look me up!

 

[Sister_Helena]

Agreed Bro. I wish I could tell you about it. But I have no right (I’ve promised that I will not tell anyone about it in very detail.). Always pray for him because he still try to find community that is right place as God’s will. Yes, I always try not to be too quick to pass judgment on religious communities based on information from people who leave. But I put it in my prayers. Have faith although there some people are not good in some religious communities but there are hundreds more which are very good. Unfortunately the ones are not good bring bad influence to other people which make them think religious communities are like that. I’m sorry I don’t mean to disrespect and offend anyone, deep inside my heart I always respect religious people even I’ve been discerning about it myself.

The Superior definitely has an accountability before God for the life of Community. More often than not the quality of the local house depends a great deal on the quality of the local Superior. More often than not, the “personality” of the local community imitates the personality of the local Superior. I find it partly because the Superior sets the tone of Community life: regular observance, relationships, family dynamics, etc. Some Sisters, for some good reason or not, takes the mandates of Superior as Gospel. So God help us if we have a lax Superior!. But having said all that, Brother is correct in saying that Superior cannot mandate anything contrary to what the Rule and Constitutions say. Also Religious are personally responsible before God for the way they live their religious life. In other words, one can’t blame a Community or Superior, for one’s lack of faithfulness to one’s vows or religious observance. A Sister received a PERSONAL call, albeit this call is lived out in Community, and is therefore responsible to God for her responses and choices. It is often in this personal struggle to remain faithful and “live in community as if one is alone (John of the Cross)” that one grows in virtues and holiness. St. John also says that if a religious busies herself or himself with the affairs of community under the guise of zeal, he/she will never acquire that spirit of recollection necessary for union with God because the devil will always find ways to deceive us. We do not know the motivation behind people’s actions and we can easily be disquieted if we look too much on their actions. This is great wisdom in living in Community and it is something one learns only when one is forced to live in the circumstances. For those discerning religious life, it should not become an obstacle. If one is called and if one is open to learn, God will give the grace and the moments for us to learn.

 

[wina]

The Superior definitely has an accountability before God for the life of Community. More often than not the quality of the local house depends a great deal on the quality of the local Superior. More often than not, the “personality” of the local community imitates the personality of the local Superior. I find it partly because the Superior sets the tone of Community life: regular observance, relationships, family dynamics, etc. Some Sisters, for some good reason or not, takes the mandates of Superior as Gospel. So God help us if we have a lax Superior!. But having said all that, Brother is correct in saying that Superior cannot mandate anything contrary to what the Rule and Constitutions say. Also Religious are personally responsible before God for the way they live their religious life. In other words, one can’t blame a Community or Superior, for one’s lack of faithfulness to one’s vows or religious observance. A Sister received a PERSONAL call, albeit this call is lived out in Community, and is therefore responsible to God for her responses and choices. It is often in this personal struggle to remain faithful and “live in community as if one is alone (John of the Cross)” that one grows in virtues and holiness. St. John also says that if a religious busies herself or himself with the affairs of community under the guise of zeal, he/she will never acquire that spirit of recollection necessary for union with God because the devil will always find ways to deceive us. We do not know the motivation behind people’s actions and we can easily be disquieted if we look too much on their actions. This is great wisdom in living in Community and it is something one learns only when one is forced to live in the circumstances. For those discerning religious life, it should not become an obstacle. If one is called and if one is open to learn, God will give the grace and the moments for us to learn.

Yes sister, I agreed what you said fortunately St.John of the Cross had been found by St. Theresa Avila who could make him sure not to leave Carmel because she had prove it by the way her life was.
Sister, yes, I admitted that one obstacle (have many obstacles and worries) for me because of that. I’m not sure that I can be like him if I had the same situation (I can still be firm with it). But honestly, he (the one that I told before, the one who left the community) has been very supportive to my vocation, and he is one of those who always support me with my discernment for religious life. He said exactly what you said sister, don’t be afraid because of the situation that he told me not to make me afraid but be aware of it and always pray. There are still hundreds communities which are very good. And Thanks be to God that I still have courage to move on and God has given me His grace to be brave. I’ve been corresponded with one community and wait for their confirmation whether they allow me to live in for 3 month. And I ask your favor to pray for me too

 

[JReducation]

The Superior definitely has an accountability before God for the life of Community. More often than not the quality of the local house depends a great deal on the quality of the local Superior. More often than not, the “personality” of the local community imitates the personality of the local Superior. I find it partly because the Superior sets the tone of Community life: regular observance, relationships, family dynamics, etc. Some Sisters, for some good reason or not, takes the mandates of Superior as Gospel. So God help us if we have a lax Superior!. But having said all that, Brother is correct in saying that Superior cannot mandate anything contrary to what the Rule and Constitutions say. Also Religious are personally responsible before God for the way they live their religious life. In other words, one can’t blame a Community or Superior, for one’s lack of faithfulness to one’s vows or religious observance.

I believe that it’s true that a superior sets the tone for the life of the local community. I’ve also noticed that a lot also depends on the fonder. Some founders gave their successors more latitude than others. For example, St. Benedict includes a statute for almost every possibility except television, because they didn’t have that in those days. The abbots have an outline of how the monastic life is to be lived.

Then you have founders like Bernard, Bruno and Francis of Assisi who did not leave such a detailed outline as Benedict did. They left a more spiritual rule with less legislation than Benedict, but they bound their successors, under obedience and ecclesiastical penalties, including excommunication, to obey them, even after death and never to deviate from the system that they set in place. These statutes have been sealed by the Church with Papal Bulls, meaning that they are binding on the superior of today as they were on the first generation of Cistercians, Carthusians and Franciscans. In my own Franciscan family we have had superiors excommunicated for disobeying a precept or admonition of St. Francis. Every time the friars want to divert in another direction, they have to get permission from the Holy See.

We had another unique situation. Francis was not a priest. But after several years diocesan priests asked to become friars and were admitted to the order. Since then we have had what we call ordained brothers or friar-priests. Anyway, to give authority to the lay brothers over the priests, Pope Nicholas IV, who was a Franciscan Friar, declared Francis a Patriarch with all the rights of a Patriarch. That bound every successor of Francis to the Seraphic Father. If they cannot decide on their own, the superior must consult with his superior. If there is no precedent, a chapter has to be convoked and the brothers decide the policy or procedure in chapter. The rule says that the superior must obey the resolutions of the chapter. In that regard, our superiors are governed by those whom they govern and by Francis. If the situation is urgent, the superior has to decide one way or the other. The issue is taken up at a chapter after the fact, in case it comes up again.

Cistercians, Camaldolese and Carthusians are also governed by the local chapter. The abbot is the executor of the chapter and of the wishes of their respective founders. Having been a local superior in this kind of system, I can tell you folks that it places a very heavy yoke on you. You have a founder who is looked up to as a Holy Father, with capital H & F and you are expected to carry on his spirit, care for your brothers as he did, discipline and correct as he did, and protect their souls as he did. Most of us find this very challenging, because Bernard, Francis, Bruno and Benedict are hard shoes to fill. These men were not only founders and spiritual fathers, but they had very unique personalities. You are expected to bring your personality to the job, but do it as they did. I call it a creative tension, because you have to be the person you are and at the same time you have to learn from your father how to lead your brothers. You’re always looking back to him, because he teaches you how to serve Jesus in your brothers. Some superiors just throw their hands up in the air and say, “I can’t do it.” Most of us get through it with a passing grade. I think I just made D or a C- when my turn came.

While I believe that the superior sets the tone, in those communities where the founders were very strong personalities and left little latitude to their successors, it is really the founder who sets the tone. The superior’s job is to keep everyone faithful to the founder’s vision and the path that the founder laid out to Christ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I believe that a local superior can have such a role with in the community, but I also know of many priors who do not have such a hold upon their community.

It all depends on the prior and his style of leading.

I find those that go for the true servant leadership do not have such a hold or impact upon their priory.

This is my limited experience in my own order/province.

 

[JReducation]

I believe that a local superior can have such a role with in the community, but I also know of many priors who do not have such a hold upon their community.

It all depends on the prior and his style of leading.

I find those that go for the true servant leadership do not have such a hold or impact upon their priory.

This is my limited experience in my own order/province.

Do the O’Carms have government by the local chapter or is the Prior the sole authority?

I know that monastic orders have the local chapter that governs over the abbot and so do Franciscans. That makes it easier for superior to govern, because the directives come from the founder and the rule. But when in doubt, you go to the brotherhood. This way no one can question the Guardian of a house, becaues he does not speak from his own authority, but he is the voice of the founder and the community, which everyone must obey. If you’re a Franciscan, you obey without asking questions, unless you get permission to ask questions. Some superiors never allow it. Most will ask you, “Do you have any questions?”

I was wondering if you guys have a local chapter with juridical authority.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Do the O’Carms have government by the local chapter or is the Prior the sole authority?

I know that monastic orders have the local chapter that governs over the abbot and so do Franciscans. That makes it easier for superior to govern, because the directives come from the founder and the rule. But when in doubt, you go to the brotherhood. This way no one can question the Guardian of a house, becaues he does not speak from his own authority, but he is the voice of the founder and the community, which everyone must obey. If you’re a Franciscan, you obey without asking questions, unless you get permission to ask questions. Some superiors never allow it. Most will ask you, “Do you have any questions?”

I was wondering if you guys have a local chapter with juridical authority.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The Prior is the authority in a community.

My prior uses monthly house meetings and committees to decide things but he is the authority and has the final say.

 

[JReducation]

The Prior is the authority in a community.

My prior uses monthly house meetings and committees to decide things but he is the authority and has the final say.

OH, OK. That now makes sense to me, why we have such a difference in our understanding of the role of the superior.

I noticed that Sister Helena is also O’Carm and she said that the superior sets the tone for the local community. I was wondering what does the house chapter do. If you don’t have a house chapter with juridical authority, then the superior is truly the top gun in the community.

In his rule St. Francis forbade Priors. We were never to have priors or abbots. We were to have mothers called Guardians. It is their job to make sure that Francis, the rule, constitutions and the Church are obeyed. Every month the Guardian must convoke a house chapter, which makes law for that house. It cannot overrule Francis, the rule or the constitution. It simply makes laws on areas not addressed in one of the existing documents. The Guardian is morally obliged to obey the voice of the brothers in chapter. He cannot overrule the community. The only ones who can overrule the community are the successors of St. Francis: Provincial Minister and Minister General, or their vicars. Because they have the right of succession. A local superior does not have the right of succession, because he is not elected by the brothers. He is appointed by the major superior.

We don’t really look to him to set the tone. We expect him to be responsible for making sure that everything runs smoothly so that the friars can live according to the rule. He may command anything that is in the rule, constitution or that the chapter allows him to command. That being said, some Guardians are more charismatic than others. These guys rarely have to command. The friars are eager to please them.

However, the friars also have a duty. They are never to call into question a mandate given by a Guardian or a Minister, unless it’s a sin. If it’s not in the books, you must still obey and bring it up at a chapter. There is some margin for those in authority to make decisions that can’t wait for a chapter.

As you can see, the chapter sets the tone. It’s an ancient monastic concept. That’s why there is a great deal of diversity between one house and another, because certan things are particular to that house alone.

Our nuns are governed by an abbess. Our sisters are governed by a chapter. Our seculars are governed by their own ministers general and minister provincial who may never be a friar.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF