Disrespectful posture and behavior at Mass, when to speak to someone?

[CAROLOFTHEBELLS]

During this Sunday’s Mass I was seated in the third row. The family that sat in front of me consisted of a teen boy and teen girl, could have actually been on the brink of their 20’s, and a mom.

Sometime into the Mass, the boy and girl began to poke each other. The boy pulled on the girl’s long hair and sleeve of her jacket. Then the girl did something to get him back. They were directly in front of me. I couldn’t move since it was pretty crowded and I was in the middle of the pew. I was getting pretty distracted, but thought I would try closing my eyes. That helped a little bit.

During the Eucrasitic prayer they did not kneel. Thankfully, they sat up a bit in the pew so at least myself and the man next to me could kneel and pray without our faces in the back of their heads. However, for much of the time they poked and played with each other. During the Agnus Dei, I found it necessary to sing with my eyes closed to stay prayerful and focused. I could not look towards the altar. In fact, they were fooling around during Consecration, which seemed extremely disrespectful towards Jesus.

After the folks in my row received Communion, myself and the man next to me knelt to prayer. The two “kids” had fully sat back in their pew while everyone else (including their mother) was kneeling. As I and the young man next to me knelt to pray, they did not move. So, at that point we were praying with our faces in their hair! When I took up my missal to sing, I had no choice but to lay it on the backside of the girl’s head! As I’m doing that, I’m sure my voice must have been going directly past her ear, she didn’t move an inch to make room for me, let alone out of respect for our Lord.

During the closing hymn, they played around some more. Their mother, or whoever the adult woman was who was with them, at that point (a little late) separated them and got between them. While everyone around them was singing, they playfully battled each other across the woman.

When witnessing such disrespect towards our Lord, when is it appropriate to speak up and ask for it to stop? These were not young children, who don’t know any better.

To be honest, I avoided the temptation to do so all the way until the end. But then spoke up, saying to the young people that I was sorry to have to say this, but this is not a playground. I got an interesting response from their mother. She told me to keep looking at my bible (the Missal with the song we were singing), let God handle things, and they are there to act however they want. So I end up feeling like I’m the one who is misbehaving.

As I left I asked Father if he could consider doing a sermon on prayer posture and respectful behavior during Mass. He said, “Will do!”

 

[Newbie2]

Ya done well. Nothing more to do, except perhaps move if they come sit anywhere near you again.

 

[BSHoop96]

To be honest, I avoided the temptation to do so all the way until the end. But then spoke up, saying to the young people that I was sorry to have to say this, but this is not a playground. I got an interesting response from their mother. She told me to keep looking at my bible (the Missal with the song we were singing), let God handle things, and they are there to act however they want. So I end up feeling like I’m the one who is misbehaving.

After that response I would have told the Mother that it was suddenly apparent to me why the children’s manners were so atrocious. You did fine.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,

What a frustrating experience.

I would have spoken much sooner. It is easier to make a reasonable request sooner, rather than later, and avoid suffering through Mass, and letting resentment build.

And to that irresponsible adult? God is handling it by giving children to parents. It is unfortunate when they are too wishy-washy to discipline young adults who act like babies.

Lux

 

[Newbie2]

And to that irresponsible adult? God is handling it by giving children to parents. It is unfortunate when they are too wishy-washy to discipline young adults who act like babies.

Lux

LOL

Just think of what that “adult”/parent has to deal with at home.

 

[Margarite]

NO! You should have said something during mass! How will they learn if they are not taught!?! You can’t just let that sort of stuff happen! Christ is up there on the altar and don’t you think it would be better to tell someone that they are hurting Our Lord, than to just sit and try to make yourself better by closing your eyes. NO! You must stand up for Our Lord! It is up to you! It is up to those of us in the pews! Christ speaks through people, he doesn’t yell from the tabernacle at those people, he waits for us to say something!
You don’t have to say it in a mean way, all you have to say is “Could you please pay attention, you are very distracting, and I am trying to pray.” Or words to that effect. That will make them think, and who knows, you might inspire them to pray too! Don’t back out of a situation, confront it. Christ did not just go to the priest of the temple and tell them that there were money changers in the temple, he got angry and he physically threw them out! You are not being asked to throw anyone out, you are just being asked to say something nicely. Even if you don’t do it for yourself, do it for the man sitting next to you, and for the teens who need guidance.

Sorry for ranting, but this is sooooooooooooooooo important.
Hope you have a wonder full day!

 

[AngelRose81]

Let me pose a question to you…could these kids possible have been mentally handicapped or have ADHD? The reason I ask is that I have both of these types of kids in my classes at school (11th grade) and it is VERY hard to keep them in a seat with their hands off other students.

HOWEVER, I don’t think this is an excuse for the adult with them to not stop their behavior. If they are handicapped or have a disorder, then she should have told them to come with her and they should have left the sanctuary until the issue had been dealt with.

But if these kids were fine mentally and developmentally, they should have known better! I would have said something quietly to them, especially when you couldn’t kneel without them being right there in the way. I think that regardless this is a case of bad parenting. I know that’s probably judgmental but I would assume that the parent/adult in the situation probably never made them behave when they were little either so it has transferred into their teenage years.

 

[CAROLOFTHEBELLS]

NO! You should have said something during mass! How will they learn if they are not taught!?! You can’t just let that sort of stuff happen! Christ is up there on the altar and don’t you think it would be better to tell someone that they are hurting Our Lord, than to just sit and try to make yourself better by closing your eyes. NO! You must stand up for Our Lord! It is up to you! It is up to those of us in the pews! Christ speaks through people, he doesn’t yell from the tabernacle at those people, he waits for us to say something!
You don’t have to say it in a mean way, all you have to say is “Could you please pay attention, you are very distracting, and I am trying to pray.” Or words to that effect. That will make them think, and who knows, you might inspire them to pray too! Don’t back out of a situation, confront it. Christ did not just go to the priest of the temple and tell them that there were money changers in the temple, he got angry and he physically threw them out! You are not being asked to throw anyone out, you are just being asked to say something nicely. Even if you don’t do it for yourself, do it for the man sitting next to you, and for the teens who need guidance.

Sorry for ranting, but this is sooooooooooooooooo important.
Hope you have a wonder full day!

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I thought. I was actually ashamed that I didn’t speak to them earlier (and around the time that you mentioned), because I felt that I could have sounded nicer earlier. Also, I didn’t like letting it go on. By the time I said something I was just trying to hang in there until I left, but I had “had it”. After the mom reacted that way, which caused a little scene since I said back to her that they need to respect God during Mass and, of course, she said something back to me, which was, “Let the priest and nuns tell them that.” I was really upset with myself that I couldn’t keep quiet, yet I was also upset that someone essentially told me to mind my own business when I was just defending our Lord. Although I do think, well I guess she’s a little right, on the other hand I also remembered what Jesus did with the money changers. He didn’t do it just because he was angry or thought he was better than them. I didn’t behave the way I did just because I was angry or thought I was better than them. You know, I get bugged when someone acts up in the movie theater, but this was a way different feeling.

 

[EasterJoy]

After the mom reacted that way, which caused a little scene since I said back to her that they need to respect God during Mass and, of course, she said something back to me, which was, “Let the priest and nuns tell them that.”

I think I would make this about how they are affecting you, which obviously* is* your business, rather than making it about how they should respect God or the sacredness of the space, which is arguably more under the pastor’s authority. I wouldn’t even let the mom into the conversation, and I wouldn’t get off of the ground where I quite obviously did have the authority to speak. (Remember in the story of the cleansing of the temple that the first guff Jesus got was over whether he had authority to have done what he did.)

“I’m sorry, m’aam, but I’m a grown-up, they’re grown-ups, and if they’re distracting me in a setting where I deserve to expect grown-up behavior, I’m going to feel free to talk to them about it, no less in church than in a movie theatre. If they were younger, I would be talking to you. As it is, they are grown-ups, they make their own choices. I appreciated your effort to get between them at Mass, but you don’t need to concern yourself with this matter. It is between the three of us. I don’t doubt that we can come to a civilized understanding on our own.”

I’d take this tack with anyone over the age of about 15. By that age, young people don’t want their parents stepping between them and an adult willing to treat them like a fellow adult. It is actually a sign of respect for the young person to handle it that way, IMHO.

 

[Cat]

I would move to a different place, even if it meant standing in the back.

You just don’t know the particulars of the family situation. Maybe the kids agree to come to Mass only if Mom doesn’t mess with them, and Mom agrees for the sake of getting her kids to Mass, hoping that they will receive some small graces and possibly repent of their waywardness and return to God. Some families are really out of whack, aren’t they? The family could be so totally dysfunctional that the kids are just acting out so that they can deal with their misery without going crazy.

I would always err on the side of charity and tolerance.

 

[Spots]

Could they have been with an aunt/uncle, or other family members, but they themselves were not Catholic?

Without knowing their circumstances, I would have asked that they please be quiet/move forward so you can pray (if needed), but that’s about it.

It’s not inherently disrespectful to be unable to kneel (or if you are from another belief system), as long as one sits reverently. Since we don’t’ know if they are Catholic or not, then I would not ask them to kneel. We also don’t know if they’ve had acl surgery or some such that would make it uncomfortable.

 

[muffinmojo]

I would move to a different place, even if it meant standing in the back.

You just don’t know the particulars of the family situation. Maybe the kids agree to come to Mass only if Mom doesn’t mess with them, and Mom agrees for the sake of getting her kids to Mass, hoping that they will receive some small graces and possibly repent of their waywardness and return to God. Some families are really out of whack, aren’t they? The family could be so totally dysfunctional that the kids are just acting out so that they can deal with their misery without going crazy.

I would always err on the side of charity and tolerance.

Charity can be speaking up. It really isn’t important if the kids are acting out to deal with misery in this situation- that is still not acceptable. If this behaviour is seen over a long period, along with other warning signs of an abusive home, THEN it is safe to assume that they are suffering at home. People’s actions are their fault, good or bad, and even though we should take compassion on those that act badly because of suffering in their lives, that does no excuse their actions or mean we should tolerate them.

 

[Georgia]

I think I have seen it all, but I would never correct others at a Mass. I really don’t want confrontation when I am there to worship and going home angry is just not what I am there for. A parent defending trashy behavior would have me steaming for days.

We now have a society that is dissolving its standards of public decency. Some call it a TV generation. That could be true if you see how people act just about anywhere. You can be at a cultural event or at church and people talk as if they are in their living rooms.

I seldom go to my church anymore, though I don’t miss Mass unless I am sick or unless I am working. It is just so out of control there that I like to visit a church a few miles down the road where the pastor tells people bad behavior during Mass is a sin. They actually show up on time, participate in singing and in the responses and wait until Mass is over to leave. It is so much more relevant to me when I am in a Mass in which there are no interruptions.

This weekend, I went to my parish church and Mass started unusually early, only three minutes late instead of the up to ten minutes. People all around me sat and chatted not unlike the way one would do before a high school play started. Huge numbers strolled in late to very late with quite a few dropping by just as the Gospel started. People were moving around during the whole of the Mass. Few participated in responses, and virtually none bother to pick up the song book. I left feeling as if I had skipped Mass and had gone to a show.

Parents and others who suck the reverence out of Mass hurt themselves and all of us. Kids such as the ones in the thread starter grow up with no appreciation for the Mass and may be in danger of being only cultural Catholics.

We want to worship Our Lord, but it is hard sometimes when Mass becomes just another crowd scene. I wonder why priests let this go on without correcting the people as they have to see it. Perhaps they don’t want to alienate others and are afraid of losing the flock.

 

[CAROLOFTHEBELLS]

I don’t think they could have had surgery or an injury because they able to be pretty physical with each other. Another thing they were doing is the boy would tug on the arm of the girl until she was leaning over and then the girl would sort of whack the boy.

I understand that some folks may have had knee surgery or an injury that prevents them from kneeling. Under those circumstances, most people will sit forward in the pew and lean a bit (which can show some reverence). I haven’t had surgery, but once had a bad fall on some stairs that bruised up my knees really bad. That was a day before Christmas Eve Mass. I knelt. It hurt like heck, but I knelt. When it got to be too much, I sat on the edge of the pew and leaned forward.

I see it as very disrespectful not to kneel during the parts of the Mass when we are expected to. The reason for the kneeling posture is to show respect and reverence to Our Lord. He is our King. For goodness sakes, if someone has an audience with the Queen of England, there are only certain acceptable respectable positions. She is a human being. How much more respect we owe the Lord!

If someone is not Catholic and attending a Mass, they should assume the posture of everyone else out of respect for the group where they are attending church. The phrase, “When in Rome…,” fits here. Yes, maybe someone just visiting or even being coerced into attending a Mass may not have their heart in it, but if you are there you should do as the rest of the group is doing (as far as an outsider is allowed to by the group) as a sign of respect for others there and for their beliefs.

If I went to the religious service of another group and did not follow what the group is doing then I would essentially be announcing by my actions that I don’t care what they do in their holy place and I am just going to do whatever I feel like and whatever feels comfortable to me. I imagine that I might be uncomfortable in a mosque, but if stood while everyone was bowed down, that would be very disrespectful to them. It’s not necessary for me to believe the same as the group in order to show respect for them while they are worshiping. If I was bowed down, I could be thinking, “Oh boy, I wish I didn’t have those beans for lunch,” but my posture would allow others to focus on their prayers and thoughts and not on me. It would be selfish and disrespectful to the believers to express that my beliefs are not necessarily the same as the group around me.

When a group is meeting together and I am an outsider, even of my own making (a fallen away Catholic, for instance), the group is not meeting for MY benefit. They are meeting for their benefit and to worship in the way they see fit. For me to act differently than the group because I am an outsider, or consider myself to be, would be to take on act as though I believe that this group is meeting for MY benefit and I don’t care about them. This is why it is disrespectful. Personally, I don’t see why a non-Catholic would visit a Catholic church and not expect to kneel. (But I do see that happening during children’s mass on Christmas Eve.)

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Sadly, sounds like a couple of young people I know. Their mother let them run around restaurants with no restraints when they were small, and did not take them to any church until they were well beyond shcool age, just “children’s church” and nursery (they were protestant). Now these two can’t behave anywhere, and it’s all about them at ages 25 and 22.

You did just fine.

 

[Cat]

I don’t think they could have had surgery or an injury because they able to be pretty physical with each other. Another thing they were doing is the boy would tug on the arm of the girl until she was leaning over and then the girl would sort of whack the boy.

I understand that some folks may have had knee surgery or an injury that prevents them from kneeling. Under those circumstances, most people will sit forward in the pew and lean a bit (which can show some reverence). I haven’t had surgery, but once had a bad fall on some stairs that bruised up my knees really bad. That was a day before Christmas Eve Mass. I knelt. It hurt like heck, but I knelt. When it got to be too much, I sat on the edge of the pew and leaned forward.

I see it as very disrespectful not to kneel during the parts of the Mass when we are expected to. The reason for the kneeling posture is to show respect and reverence to Our Lord. He is our King. For goodness sakes, if someone has an audience with the Queen of England, there are only certain acceptable respectable positions. She is a human being. How much more respect we owe the Lord!

If someone is not Catholic and attending a Mass, they should assume the posture of everyone else out of respect for the group where they are attending church. The phrase, “When in Rome…,” fits here. Yes, maybe someone just visiting or even being coerced into attending a Mass may not have their heart in it, but if you are there you should do as the rest of the group is doing (as far as an outsider is allowed to by the group) as a sign of respect for others there and for their beliefs.

If I went to the religious service of another group and did not follow what the group is doing then I would essentially be announcing by my actions that I don’t care what they do in their holy place and I am just going to do whatever I feel like and whatever feels comfortable to me. I imagine that I might be uncomfortable in a mosque, but if stood while everyone was bowed down, that would be very disrespectful to them. It’s not necessary for me to believe the same as the group in order to show respect for them while they are worshiping. If I was bowed down, I could be thinking, “Oh boy, I wish I didn’t have those beans for lunch,” but my posture would allow others to focus on their prayers and thoughts and not on me. It would be selfish and disrespectful to the believers to express that my beliefs are not necessarily the same as the group around me.

When a group is meeting together and I am an outsider, even of my own making (a fallen away Catholic, for instance), the group is not meeting for MY benefit. They are meeting for their benefit and to worship in the way they see fit. For me to act differently than the group because I am an outsider, or consider myself to be, would be to take on act as though I believe that this group is meeting for MY benefit and I don’t care about them. This is why it is disrespectful. Personally, I don’t see why a non-Catholic would visit a Catholic church and not expect to kneel. (But I do see that happening during children’s mass on Christmas Eve.)

No, no, no, NO!

As a Protestant (I’m a convert to Catholicism), I had NO IDEA what was happening at the few Masses that I attended (Midnight Masses on Christmas Eve, weddings, funerals).

I would NEVER, EVER participate in posture or gesture without a FULL UNDERSTANDING of exactly what I was doing.

**Many Protestants consider Catholicism an idolatrous cult or a pagan ritual. They would NEVER, EVER kneel or bow or genuflect or do anything that might be an act of idolatry or a pagan ritual that blasphemes. God forbid. ** And they should be commended for this commitment to the commandments of God.

In fact, some Protestants will not enter a Catholic Church, not even for a wedding or funeral, because they are convinced that the works of Satan are practiced there.

The Catechism makes it clear that Christians are to follow their conscience. The Bible says the same thing. If a gesture is not something that we can honor God with, then it is SIN to participate in it.

Don’t blame Protestants for their lack of knowledge or condemn them for it. In whatever capacity you are able, work to try to teach the truth. As the old saying goes, brighten the corner where you are. Pray for Protestants, that their eyes might be opened.

I frankly think that every Catholic Church should have a “Tract Rack” that contains large quanties of tracts explaing the Holy Mass and describing the significance of the various acts, gestures, etc. This would really help Protestants to understand what they are seeing at Mass. (And it would help many Catholics, too!)

I am a little concerned with the idea that you are suggesting that we “fit in.” Would you participate in the postures at a Muslim ceremony? I wouldn’t. Never, ever, God forbid! I don’t do or say ANYTHING at ceremonies unless I understand and AGREE with what is being said or done.

In fact, when my children were small, I took them to an AWANA club meeting at a neighborhood church. At the beginning, the club members did the AWANA Pledge (which is straight out of the Bible), and raise their right hands in a salute to their flag. My daughters and I did not participate.

Afterwards, my daughter, who was about six at the time, asked me why they were doing a “Nazi Salute.”

 

[TLM08]

During this Sunday’s Mass I was seated in the third row. The family that sat in front of me consisted of a teen boy and teen girl, could have actually been on the brink of their 20’s, and a mom.

Sometime into the Mass, the boy and girl began to poke each other. The boy pulled on the girl’s long hair and sleeve of her jacket. Then the girl did something to get him back. They were directly in front of me. I couldn’t move since it was pretty crowded and I was in the middle of the pew. I was getting pretty distracted, but thought I would try closing my eyes. That helped a little bit.

During the Eucrasitic prayer they did not kneel. Thankfully, they sat up a bit in the pew so at least myself and the man next to me could kneel and pray without our faces in the back of their heads. However, for much of the time they poked and played with each other. During the Agnus Dei, I found it necessary to sing with my eyes closed to stay prayerful and focused. I could not look towards the altar. In fact, they were fooling around during Consecration, which seemed extremely disrespectful towards Jesus.

After the folks in my row received Communion, myself and the man next to me knelt to prayer. The two “kids” had fully sat back in their pew while everyone else (including their mother) was kneeling. As I and the young man next to me knelt to pray, they did not move. So, at that point we were praying with our faces in their hair! When I took up my missal to sing, I had no choice but to lay it on the backside of the girl’s head! As I’m doing that, I’m sure my voice must have been going directly past her ear, she didn’t move an inch to make room for me, let alone out of respect for our Lord.

During the closing hymn, they played around some more. Their mother, or whoever the adult woman was who was with them, at that point (a little late) separated them and got between them. While everyone around them was singing, they playfully battled each other across the woman.

When witnessing such disrespect towards our Lord, when is it appropriate to speak up and ask for it to stop? These were not young children, who don’t know any better.

To be honest, I avoided the temptation to do so all the way until the end. But then spoke up, saying to the young people that I was sorry to have to say this, but this is not a playground. I got an interesting response from their mother. She told me to keep looking at my bible (the Missal with the song we were singing), let God handle things, and they are there to act however they want. So I end up feeling like I’m the one who is misbehaving.

As I left I asked Father if he could consider doing a sermon on prayer posture and respectful behavior during Mass. He said, “Will do!”

These people obviously do not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There really is very little reverence any more at Mass. If you are in your late 40s or older, you can see how much of a difference there is in how people conduct themselves during Mass these days compared to how things were years ago when the faith was actually being TAUGHT during the homily.

Correct posture and reverence means nothing to these kids because they were never taught. They really don’t know any better. When I was a kid, when there was more respect for the Mass, priests and authority in general, it was not uncommon for the priests to simply fix a brief stare at any misbehavior during the Mass and it would immediately stop.

This is all a result of people turning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into celebration of our “togetherness” where we all hug one another and hold hands. It’s all part of the same rotten apple. The church never called for this silliness, but I sure wish she would put her foot down and put a stop to it!

If we are really in the presence of God, (… uh… can you say Eucharist?) Why in the world aren’t we more reverent and focused on HIM… and not on all of this “togetherness” garbage?

 

[EasterJoy]

These people obviously do not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There really is very little reverence any more at Mass. If you are in your late 40s or older, you can see how much of a difference there is in how people conduct themselves during Mass these days compared to how things were years ago when the faith was actually being TAUGHT during the homily.

Correct posture and reverence means nothing to these kids because they were never taught. They really don’t know any better. When I was a kid, when there was more respect for the Mass, priests and authority in general, it was not uncommon for the priests to simply fix a brief stare at any misbehavior during the Mass and it would immediately stop.

This is all a result of people turning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into celebration of our “togetherness” where we all hug one another and hold hands. It’s all part of the same rotten apple. The church never called for this silliness, but I sure wish she would put her foot down and put a stop to it!

If we are really in the presence of God, (… uh… can you say Eucharist?) Why in the world aren’t we more reverent and focused on HIM… and not on all of this “togetherness” garbage?

We live in an age when the President of the United States was willing to publicly answer questions about what kind of underwear he wears (Bill Clinton) or felt free to take it upon himself to wink at the Queen of England in public (George Bush). The outcome of presidential elections can be predicted by considering which candidate the average person would be more likely to choose to have a beer with. It is not any wonder that we are not a country that understands the outer self-control required to show respect.

There are a lot of us who “are not amused”, but this is a problem that goes far beyond the Mass, or even the Catholic Church. The culprit is not “togetherness”. The culprit is the demonization of civilized behavior as something that somehow oppresses the human spirit. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don’t mean that we should throw up our hands and take it, but that this should not be a burden borne entirely by religious authorities. Let’s face it: even an atheist would never act that way during Mass, if he had any manners whatsoever.

If we stop accepting such coarse behavior in theatres, schools, and restaurants, it won’t be such a shock when young people find themselves in a church.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

It’s always difficult when someone’s behavior becomes a distraction at Mass.

I suppose the old advice is “offer it up,” and there’s something to be said for that.

A second choice is to put the blame on yourself. “Excuse me, I’m afraid I’m going to mess up your hair. Would you sit forward a bit so there’s a little more space?”

One of the things that usually stops me from saying anything comes from my work with returning Catholics. Someone who doesn’t quite seem to fit in at Mass may be someone who is there for the first time in many years. I would hate to be the one who drives that person right back out of the church by being rude or making them feel unwelcome. Similarly, I hope that I’m never the one who is the object of the explanation of why someone left the church. “Because the people there were so unfriendly” or “They made me feel uncomfortable.”

I tend to put up with an awful lot before I say anything. I remember the Mass where I had my eyes closed almost from beginning to end because of the gross behavior of the person in front of me. He was retarded and clearly didn’t know there was a problem. And I couldn’t move because I was there with my elderly mother. That was definitely a case of offering it up.

 

[Margarite]

No, we shouldn’t expect them to kneel if they are not Catholic, but they should sit forward and still while others are kneeling so as not to make it hard for the person behind to kneel. It is just common courtesy!
We aren’t talking about the need for them to be Catholic, that is a different thread, we are talking about the need for them to be still, silent and respectful of others and of the ceremony that is taking place. I don’t care if they believe or not, as far as this thread is concerned, what I do care about is the fact that they could have been distracting many, many people from the worship of God, they were disrespecting God, and they could have been hurting the faith of someone else in the pews.

As far as this thread is concerned, it doesn’t matter what religion, or lack there-of, they belong to, what does matter is common courtesy.