Disrespectful posture and behavior at Mass, when to speak to someone?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CAROLOFTHEBELLS
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Cat said:
No, no, no, NO!

As a Protestant (I’m a convert to Catholicism), I had NO IDEA what was happening at the few Masses that I attended (Midnight Masses on Christmas Eve, weddings, funerals).

I would NEVER, EVER participate in posture or gesture without a FULL UNDERSTANDING of exactly what I was doing.

**Many Protestants consider Catholicism an idolatrous cult or a pagan ritual. They would NEVER, EVER kneel or bow or genuflect or do anything that might be an act of idolatry or a pagan ritual that blasphemes. God forbid. ** And they should be commended for this commitment to the commandments of God.

In fact, some Protestants will not enter a Catholic Church, not even for a wedding or funeral, because they are convinced that the works of Satan are practiced there.

The Catechism makes it clear that Christians are to follow their conscience. The Bible says the same thing. If a gesture is not something that we can honor God with, then it is SIN to participate in it.

Don’t blame Protestants for their lack of knowledge or condemn them for it. In whatever capacity you are able, work to try to teach the truth. As the old saying goes, brighten the corner where you are. Pray for Protestants, that their eyes might be opened.

I frankly think that every Catholic Church should have a “Tract Rack” that contains large quanties of tracts explaing the Holy Mass and describing the significance of the various acts, gestures, etc. This would really help Protestants to understand what they are seeing at Mass. (And it would help many Catholics, too!)

I am a little concerned with the idea that you are suggesting that we “fit in.” Would you participate in the postures at a Muslim ceremony? I wouldn’t. Never, ever, God forbid! I don’t do or say ANYTHING at ceremonies unless I understand and AGREE with what is being said or done.

In fact, when my children were small, I took them to an AWANA club meeting at a neighborhood church. At the beginning, the club members did the AWANA Pledge (which is straight out of the Bible), and raise their right hands in a salute to their flag. My daughters and I did not participate.

Afterwards, my daughter, who was about six at the time, asked me why they were doing a “Nazi Salute.”
Click to expand...
First of all, I’m not blaming Protestants for anything.

A Catholic should have prepared you for what to expect when you attended those services that you mentioned. I have always done so for the friends I have taken to Mass with me. In fact, I found that a simple “follow what I do and let me know if you feel uncomfortable or have a question” does the trick and makes me feel less like I am giving a lesson or evangelizing in a heavy way. Also, in this day of the Internet especially, doing one’s own research is easy. Even Barnes and Noble has a book called Catholism for Dummies. You can find out the reason behind the gestures, if you want. It’s up to each person, if they want to go into a situation blind and cold or prepare. Some people feel okay winging it and some just know that they are going to feel very uncomfortable and prepare. It is really not the duty of the family of the deceased or the bride and groom or the parishioner at the Catholic church to teach you Catholic customs and posture.

Protestants kneel to pray. Yes they do. And, please, don’t lump all Protestants together. My father was Catholic. My mother is Episcopalian. I know for a fact, kneeling is done in some Protestant churches. I went to both churches for a while when I was a child. (And I have also had my share of hearing the Catholic Church bashed, even in my own home growing up. My mother was even screaming at my father about the terrible Catholic Church as we drove away for my Confirmation.)

I’m sorry you think I’m evil to think that I would ever set foot in a mosque and bow down. This is not the idea of fitting in, the idea is one should respect the culture that one is in. Read Paul’s letters, if you need a scriptual base for that. It would not effect me, my soul, or my heart, one bit if I bowed down. I know who I believe in and I know what I believe in.

Let me use an analogy that might be more understandable, though. If I visited a Jewish Temple or synagoge for a service (the same Lord we worship) and fooled around and did not stand when they stand,etc.I would show disrespect towards their religion, their culture, and the people there.

I don’t know anything about the Awana Club. Perhaps there was a way you could have found out about that flag salute before hand and made a decision to keep your 6 year old from attending a meeting.

The statement you made about many Protestants consider Catholism a pagan cult. Thanks for that little stab to my heart. I know that, and it hurts. Gladly, it is not all and I am happy to say that most often it does not work both ways. Cat, I’m sorry to say this, but the way you address things to me in the Catholic Answers forums drives me away. I went off the forums for a long time because of that.
 
CAROLOFTHEBELLS said:
First of all, I’m not blaming Protestants for anything.

A Catholic should have prepared you for what to expect when you attended those services that you mentioned. I have always done so for the friends I have taken to Mass with me. In fact, I found that a simple “follow what I do and let me know if you feel uncomfortable or have a question” does the trick and makes me feel less like I am giving a lesson or evangelizing in a heavy way. Also, in this day of the Internet especially, doing one’s own research is easy. Even Barnes and Noble has a book called Catholism for Dummies. You can find out the reason behind the gestures, if you want. It’s up to each person, if they want to go into a situation blind and cold or prepare. Some people feel okay winging it and some just know that they are going to feel very uncomfortable and prepare. It is really not the duty of the family of the deceased or the bride and groom or the parishioner at the Catholic church to teach you Catholic customs and posture.

Protestants kneel to pray. Yes they do. And, please, don’t lump all Protestants together. My father was Catholic. My mother is Episcopalian. I know for a fact, kneeling is done in some Protestant churches. I went to both churches for a while when I was a child. (And I have also had my share of hearing the Catholic Church bashed, even in my own home growing up. My mother was even screaming at my father about the terrible Catholic Church as we drove away for my Confirmation.)

I’m sorry you think I’m evil to think that I would ever set foot in a mosque and bow down. This is not the idea of fitting in, the idea is one should respect the culture that one is in. Read Paul’s letters, if you need a scriptual base for that. It would not effect me, my soul, or my heart, one bit if I bowed down. I know who I believe in and I know what I believe in.

Let me use an analogy that might be more understandable, though. If I visited a Jewish Temple or synagoge for a service (the same Lord we worship) and fooled around and did not stand when they stand,etc.I would show disrespect towards their religion, their culture, and the people there.

I don’t know anything about the Awana Club. Perhaps there was a way you could have found out about that flag salute before hand and made a decision to keep your 6 year old from attending a meeting.

The statement you made about many Protestants consider Catholism a pagan cult. Thanks for that little stab to my heart. I know that, and it hurts. Gladly, it is not all and I am happy to say that most often it does not work both ways. Cat, I’m sorry to say this, but the way you address things to me in the Catholic Answers forums drives me away. I went off the forums for a long time because of that.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry to hear that. I wasn’t aware that we had been involved in any disagreements previously.

You said that a Catholic should have prepared me for attending Mass. I agree at a wedding, although the only Catholic wedding I attended while Protestant was back in 1980, and back then, I don’t think Catholics were as well-organized as we in the days of CAF and other online groups.

I don’t agree at a funeral. Let the family and friends grieve. It’s not an appropriate time to give a quick training session on the Catholic Mass.

You know, I honestly didn’t know any Catholics as close friends back when I was evangelical Protestant. When my husband and I started attending Mass, we went anonymously. No one knew us. We didn’t know any Catholics.

As for kneeling, certainly some non-Catholic sects kneel. I am from the evangelical Protestant background, and I never saw it in over 40 years, except at some of the prayer meetings. My husband was raised Pentecostal, and he saw some kneeling, but not much.

I certainly agree with you that Catholics should help their non-Catholic friends to understand Mass, but I think that most non-Catholics don’t attend Mass with friends. They just go, mainly out of curiousity, to see if the anti-Catholic apologetics that they’ve read are correct.

I don’t understand why you consider it a personal attack (by me on you) when I state that many Protestants consider Catholics a pagan cult. I wasn’t attacking you at all. I was merely stating a truth–a sad truth, I agree, but a truth. I personally know many Protestants (Evangelicals and Pentecostals) who will not enter a Catholic church. My sister-in-law is one of these evangelicals. Of course, this stabs your heart, but why are you angry at me for stating it? I don’t get it. I’m just the messenger here stating a very unpleasant fact! Don’t shoot me!

I would be curious to know how others on CAF feel about conduct by Catholics while visiting a place where others practice their non-Christian religion. Am I really that far off? I honestly would never join in with a non-Christian posture or gesture. I would sit politely and observe, but I wouldn’t join in. I’m really curious to know if I am being too extreme or intolerant with this stance. Thank you.
 
CAROLOFTHEBELLS said:
First of all, I’m not blaming Protestants for anything.

A Catholic should have prepared you for what to expect when you attended those services that you mentioned. I have always done so for the friends I have taken to Mass with me. In fact, I found that a simple “follow what I do and let me know if you feel uncomfortable or have a question” does the trick and makes me feel less like I am giving a lesson or evangelizing in a heavy way. Also, in this day of the Internet especially, doing one’s own research is easy. Even Barnes and Noble has a book called Catholism for Dummies. You can find out the reason behind the gestures, if you want. It’s up to each person, if they want to go into a situation blind and cold or prepare. Some people feel okay winging it and some just know that they are going to feel very uncomfortable and prepare. It is really not the duty of the family of the deceased or the bride and groom or the parishioner at the Catholic church to teach you Catholic customs and posture.

Protestants kneel to pray. Yes they do. And, please, don’t lump all Protestants together. My father was Catholic. My mother is Episcopalian. I know for a fact, kneeling is done in some Protestant churches. I went to both churches for a while when I was a child. (And I have also had my share of hearing the Catholic Church bashed, even in my own home growing up. My mother was even screaming at my father about the terrible Catholic Church as we drove away for my Confirmation.)

I’m sorry you think I’m evil to think that I would ever set foot in a mosque and bow down. This is not the idea of fitting in, the idea is one should respect the culture that one is in. Read Paul’s letters, if you need a scriptual base for that. It would not effect me, my soul, or my heart, one bit if I bowed down. I know who I believe in and I know what I believe in.

Let me use an analogy that might be more understandable, though. If I visited a Jewish Temple or synagoge for a service (the same Lord we worship) and fooled around and did not stand when they stand,etc.I would show disrespect towards their religion, their culture, and the people there.

I don’t know anything about the Awana Club. Perhaps there was a way you could have found out about that flag salute before hand and made a decision to keep your 6 year old from attending a meeting.

The statement you made about many Protestants consider Catholism a pagan cult. Thanks for that little stab to my heart. I know that, and it hurts. Gladly, it is not all and I am happy to say that most often it does not work both ways. Cat, I’m sorry to say this, but the way you address things to me in the Catholic Answers forums drives me away. I went off the forums for a long time because of that.
Click to expand...
I never said you were evil. Please stop making into a witch and putting words into my posts that aren’t there. Thank you.
 
CAROLOFTHEBELLS said:
I got an interesting response from their mother. She told me to keep looking at my bible (the Missal with the song we were singing), let God handle things, and they are there to act however they want. So I end up feeling like I’m the one who is misbehaving.

As I left I asked Father if he could consider doing a sermon on prayer posture and respectful behavior during Mass. He said, “Will do!”
Click to expand...
I think that you did the right thing in saying something to the teens. At their age they should know how to behave and should have some concern for other’s. I am guessing that mom finds them a handful and uses her act-how-they-want philosophy so that she doesn’t have to take responsibility.
 
Cat,

The Episcipal Church, aka Church of England, is the original Protestant Church, not a sect. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are newly formed sects that were never broken off from the true Church.

I’m sorry that you are still hanging onto your roots, which appear to be Evangelical, not Protestant. You are born again into the true Church. You can choose to leave your past feelings behind. You can choose to leave behind and forget those feelings you had when you first entered a Catholic church and fully embrace, with total contentment, where you are now.

Why does what you say bother me and feel like an attack? Oh, perhaps because it is my identity that we are talking about. I was born into my Catholicism and I embraced it. It is the faith of my father, my grandmother (who was so discrimated against that she could not pursue her teaching career in many places, facing signs that said, “No Catholics need apply.”), and it is the faith of my ancestors. Therefore, to be told that I am viewed as pagan is an insult to my identity. No, I am not just Catholic because I was born into it, but when you say that others view Catholics as pagans that is the same as calling me, my father, and my ancestors pagan. Doesn’t make much difference if you believe it. You are passing on the idea of the belief. It’s similar to gossip… As an example, “Did you know that so and so said such and such about you?” For instance: Sure, you don’t mean to tell Suzy who works with you that she is fat and you don’t think she looks fat… But you think that she should really know that Jane thinks she looks fat because after all, she should know what others are saying about her and how unfair it is. It still hurts Suzy and it does no good at all.

Would you tell an African American that many whites have viewed them as unintelligent, lazy, etc, whatever stereotype that may have been applied in the past (or present by some) and expect them to not feel pain or feel attacked? Yes, it’s true that is how they have been viewed by some. But to shove that in their face is hurtful. To add, “I don’t feel that way, because I am enlightened and those others are not,” is not helping at all. It’s hurting and it is selfish. People who have been discrimated against or stereotyped know all too well that it exists and just because you are enlightened is no reason to throw around the mean and unfair thoughts that others have.

The way I look at what you have to say is that it is divided into saying you are Protestant and you are Catholic as well. No one wants to leave a part of themselves behind, I’m sure. But, you actually come across as identifying yourself as a Protestant. Well, not really a Protestant as in a main line Protestant church, but an evangelical (which, is not really protestant, just an off-shoot sect). You come on very strong about that, yet say you are a convert. Well, which is it is going to be for you? Are you fully committed to the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith, are you willing to give up your past for Her? Are you willing to give up friends that believe that your fellow Catholics (and you) are pagans? Perhaps you are and I have missed that.

I hear a lot of bad memories from you instead of PEACE and contentment of knowing who you are and leaving your past behind you. I hear you telling cradle Catholics how bad others think we are, when many of us know that personally and don’t need to be reminded. If you are one of us, don’t dredge up bad feelings. Leave all that behind and forget it. Perhaps some Catholics like to be reminded of the hateful things the Evangelical and Fundalmentalists sometimes say or think, but I can’t see why. What good does that do? I have friends who go to Calvary Chapel who have gone to Mass with me and I have not had the experience of listening to such stuff after. They have been very respectful.

I guess others on the forums are used to what you have to say, but I don’t want to be confronted with your past views of Catholics. I just want to be who I was born to be. I was born to be a Catholic. I was born into it. I’ve lived it. I’ve heard all the lies and hate. I don’t want to hear it from someone who is now one of us, even if you don’t believe it anymore. It’s not good to spread that around. It hurts the Body of Christ. It stirs up bad feelings and pain, whether in me or someone who just happens to be reading the forums.

What does all that talk accomplish? So when I ride the bus to church on Sunday and there are Protestants or Evangelicals getting off at their churches, or talking between themselves, do you wish me to look at them with suspicion and think, “Oh, there are those people who think I am pagan. They are so wrong and unfair.” Or do you wish me to think, “Isn’t it nice that there are so many people going to worship God today?”

I’m sorry I got off the track of the thread because I was really enjoying the point of view of others on the subject of this thread. It has been very helpful.
 
CAROLOFTHEBELLS said:
During this Sunday’s Mass I was seated in the third row. The family that sat in front of me consisted of a teen boy and teen girl, could have actually been on the brink of their 20’s, and a mom.

Sometime into the Mass, the boy and girl began to poke each other. The boy pulled on the girl’s long hair and sleeve of her jacket. Then the girl did something to get him back.
Click to expand...
I would have offered my suffering for the souls of those kids. Think about their mother. Here is a woman probably begging her kids to attend Mass with her, and that is all they could muster. Maybe the parents are divorced, and the kids don’t go to Mass on weekends with their dad. Seems like that woman has a lot on her plate and could use some prayer.

I know how you feel, I get selfish with my time with the Lord when I go to Mass. This is the Church Universal though.

I heard Mark Shea say something like, this is the universal church, that means, “watch out, here we all come.”
He had a more clever way to say it than me, but what he meant, is that when we’re Catholic, we’re all in this together. The straight-laced ones, and the goofy ones. The academics and the morons. The high class and the low class.

God bless that woman and may the Lord become real to her kids.
 
I don’t know, she didn’t seem too into it herself. There were other people there before she and the kids came and sat down. They seemed like maybe they were meeting there. Maybe she and the kids were just supposed to meet some other family members at the church.

I can see offering it up. But I’m not a saint. I tried hard to fight the temptation to think judgemental thoughts. I think that for the most part I was patient. I guess I’m a little selfish, but after not being able to attend Mass the Sunday before and then traveling for an hour on two buses to get there, I am looking forward to worshiping, not suffering. Sorry to sound like a drag, but life is pretty tough (been unemployed for over 2 years, no immediate prospects, running very low on savings, and in debt) and I’ve got enough suffering going on. I have faith and keep a good attitude. Mass is a bright spot and helps me to feel “normal” and like I have a life!

I like what someone said about just addressing the teens and not the mom. The reason I like it, is I think when adults “get into it” it just makes teens laugh and think we are silly. If I had ignored what the mom said to me, maybe the teens would have thought about what they were doing and how their mom reacted.
 
graceandglory said:
I would have offered my suffering for the souls of those kids. Think about their mother. Here is a woman probably begging her kids to attend Mass with her, and that is all they could muster. Maybe the parents are divorced, and the kids don’t go to Mass on weekends with their dad. Seems like that woman has a lot on her plate and could use some prayer.

I know how you feel, I get selfish with my time with the Lord when I go to Mass. This is the Church Universal though.

I heard Mark Shea say something like, this is the universal church, that means, “watch out, here we all come.”
He had a more clever way to say it than me, but what he meant, is that when we’re Catholic, we’re all in this together. The straight-laced ones, and the goofy ones. The academics and the morons. The high class and the low class.

God bless that woman and may the Lord become real to her kids.
Click to expand...
So, if I wanted to sit next to the altar that would be OK with you because I mean you should offer it up. And if I wanted to start walking around and singing at the top of my lungs that would be OK too? I mean you should just deal with me and offer up your sufferings.
This way of thinking is illogical
When something is wrong it is our duty to help fix it, not just grin and bear it.
GTG
 
You can speak to them about it AND offer it up. I never get to concentrate at Mass because my own children need constant correction from me so they don’t distract others – some of whom are overly sensitive. I offer that up, and pray before I go to Mass for Jesus to give me grace despite my lack of attention. Pray for those “kids” and their parent, they obviously need it.
 
CAROLOFTHEBELLS said:
I got an interesting response from their mother. She told me to keep looking at my bible (the Missal with the song we were singing), let God handle things, and they are there to act however they want. So I end up feeling like I’m the one who is misbehaving.
Click to expand...
And that is why her kids behave the way they do. I would not be surprised to see small children behaving that way at Mass - but older teens? Wow.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
A second choice is to put the blame on yourself. “Excuse me, I’m afraid I’m going to mess up your hair. Would you sit forward a bit so there’s a little more space?”
Click to expand...
I agree something should be said to people who are that blatantly rude and disruptive. I would have said something like the above quote or I can’t pay attention with your playing around, would you please stop it? to the teens themselves. Good for you for not capitulating to bad behavior.

BTW, I have a special needs child and he is removed when it all becomes too much for him and he starts to disturb others. I will also immediately say something if some adult starts to give him a hard time for just being wiggly or flapping and tell that person about his disability so I doubt those two had any disability issues, just a lack of a parent who care enough to discipline issues.
 
Whenever I hear stories like this I say to myself *“where are the ushers in all of this”? * It shouldn’t be up to you to say or do anything, an usher should’ve took notice and been up there telling them to knock it off or hit the bricks…

When I was growing up even in the liberal Church of the 80’s ushers had no problem dressing down a few kids making a racket with little to no care as to what the parents protested.
 
I learned something from my RCIA sponsor (and friend) - sit in the front - that way you are not distracted by other parishioners.👍
 
Hi Carolofthebells,

Well, I can tell you when I was kid (seven years old or so) I distinctly remember this woman behind me telling me to settle down and pay attention to Jesus because I was mucking around. I was always so bored as a kid in mass and mum had a hell of time getting me to behave myself.

Obviously the incident made an impact on me because at nearly 30 years of age I can still remember it. It was really embarrassing being told to stop acting up by a stranger and it certainly made me behave a bit more.

So if it happens again, I think rather than getting angry and upset inside for the whole mass, tell them to that you really want to concentrate on praying and could they either settle down or move somewhere else. Don’t do it in a rude or grumpy way, just tell it like it is. I think there’s no harm in doing that and perhaps they will learn some more respect for the church in the process.

Good luck!
 
You know, it isn’t only kids. This past Monday at the last day of solemn Novena, there were these 2 old broads about 6 pews behind and to the right of me yakking away. Not in a whisper either. I shot them a few dirty looks and had the priest not come out for the start of novena, I was planning on going and sitting near them and telling them “I can’t quite understand what you are saying over where I was, so I figured and move so I could hear you better”

Kathy
 
Cat said:
I would move to a different place, even if it meant standing in the back.

You just don’t know the particulars of the family situation. Maybe the kids agree to come to Mass only if Mom doesn’t mess with them, and Mom agrees for the sake of getting her kids to Mass, hoping that they will receive some small graces and possibly repent of their waywardness and return to God. Some families are really out of whack, aren’t they? The family could be so totally dysfunctional that the kids are just acting out so that they can deal with their misery without going crazy.

I would always err on the side of charity and tolerance.
Click to expand...
If the “children” are ADD or something like that maybe they should go to the cry chapel.
 
The first and only thing I would have done would have been to ask OUR BLESSED MOTHER to look after the matter. Try it ,it works.

Irish Mikey
 
I agree with speaking to the children directly.

Children of any age need “re-inforcements” from outside- If they don’t get it from Christian sources, they will get it from outside the church.

It used to be that folks had extended family and close friends to help re-inforce behavior and expectations, now we have schools trying to do it (and don’t get me started there!), and unfortunately there are always the peers.

Teens and pre-teens are especially hard to deal with as most go through the “my parents are stupid and don’t know anything” stage and some also throw in a few “there is no God” episodes, so “why do I have to go to stupid church anyhow” stage.

Another adult is always a blessing IMO to re-inforce what mom and dad have been saying all along.

It might be more effective to say something or give a stern look while the disruption is occurring though.

Nancy-
mom to 11 children ages 3-27…
Been there, done that…
 
NancyCNM said:
I agree with speaking to the children directly.

Children of any age need “re-inforcements” from outside- If they don’t get it from Christian sources, they will get it from outside the church.

It used to be that folks had extended family and close friends to help re-inforce behavior and expectations, now we have schools trying to do it (and don’t get me started there!), and unfortunately there are always the peers.

Teens and pre-teens are especially hard to deal with as most go through the “my parents are stupid and don’t know anything” stage and some also throw in a few “there is no God” episodes, so “why do I have to go to stupid church anyhow” stage.

Another adult is always a blessing IMO to re-inforce what mom and dad have been saying all along.

It might be more effective to say something or give a stern look while the disruption is occurring though.

Nancy-
mom to 11 children ages 3-27…
Been there, done that…
Click to expand...
That is an excellent suggestion. In days gone by it was the whole village that would get involved in the care of all children.

Some Mothers don’t like it and think it is interfering but as for me I think it is wonderful that another Mother would care enough to correct my children in a nice and loving way. We are part of the Family of God and we should care about one another.

Thank you for that.

I think also that the Priest should sometimes - maybe one a year - dedicate an entire Mass to explaining to the congregation what the significance of each step of the Mass means. This way he can remind everyone of the Holiness of the Mass etc etc. I have seen people wave to members of the congregation as they go from receiving the Body of Christ towards the chalice with the Blood of Christ!! I fight with myself always to be concentrated - when I pray for A I start thinking of A and the same for B and C. I get MAD with myself and have resolved to write my prayer intentions on a piece of paper and hold the paper during my prayers at Mass. Its like looking at Mrs Maple’s hat and thinking what a hideous creation it is … It is a constant battle to concentrate sometimes. We need to be totally focussed because, after all, we are assisting at a wonderous thing. Scott Hahn once said in one of his videos “If the priest was handing out $100 bills instead of the Eucharist the Masses would be packed and the queue for comminion would go around the block”. Something to think about. It is difficult to understand the Eucharist - we are mere mortels with the ability to understand only 4 dimensions. Christ is beyond time and dimension - but if he said “this is my flesh…” then we better believe it and accept it and love Him for it and thank Him… I believe because I love and trust Jesus. That’s it!

It is a good thing to have statues and stained glass windows with all those images that remind us of the Kingdom of Heaven.

How wonderful is our Faith!🙂 We must have grateful hearts:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top