Dissension within the Church

[dsully]

Hello,

I am not interested in causing dissension within the Church. However, I do have a question about the ability of a Catholic clergyman or layman to disagree with the Church and still remain within the fold.

Obviously when the Magisterium gets together for an Ecumenical Council (or some other discussion), there are going to be disagreements on issues. But once the official teaching is compiled, then all would be expected to obey and uphold these teachings.

However, could a bishop still remain in disagreement with the rest of the body, holding his view privately, without leaving the church or trying to disrupt it? When does disagreement become heresy, schism? Can leaders within the church intellectually disagree with things, while still remaining faithful and submissive to Christ in the body?

Likewise with the layman: what if he or she disagrees on a few matters but still upholds the basics of the faith? Can he or she still think of himself or herself as a practicing Catholic in good standing?

Again, I would never want to cause division, but I am just trying to get a feel of how much dissension there is in the Church and what leeway people have to disagree with the Church, even if they agree that the Church is an authority given by God.

Dan

 

[benjohnson]

Its sort of tricky. If I remember correctly, and please correct me if I’m wrong: the church teaches that you should not receive any sacrement unless you agree in all matters of dogma. However, if your are baptised or are confirmed Catholic, I think you retain that imprint on your soul regardless of how far you stray. Even if the disagreement is so severe that the person becomes excommunicated, they are still within the fold of the church and still should attend mass.

 

[Dubay]

Like any other church we have liberal conservative and moderate Catholics.

We have democrats like Caroline Kennedy and how she sees Catholicism differs from how another may see more obedient conservative approach.

But end of the day we all celebrate our God.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I think it depends on what you mean by disagree (and assuming were talking about something the Church is definite on, like transubstantiation, or abortion being wrong).

If by disagree you mean that he takes his own opinion to be higher than the teaching of the Church, there’s a problem. But if you mean that he doesn’t find the arguments convincing, yet is obedient to the Church and accepts at least intellectually that the Church is correct then I think it would be fine.

Basically, to be be Catholic is to say that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit in matters of dogma, and so believe that the Church is wrong (in those areas where it claims to have divine guidance) is either to doubt God (unlikely) or to not really believe that the Church is so guided.

 

[CMatt25]

Like any other church we have liberal conservative and moderate Catholics.

We have democrats like Caroline Kennedy and how she sees Catholicism differs from how another may see more obedient conservative approach.

But end of the day we all celebrate our God.

Amen. And even though I’ve known of people even here on CAF say someone can’t be Catholic if they are pro choice or this or that, as Ben said the Catholic Church’s answer is you retain the imprint on your soul regardless of how far you stray. They might be less than fully faithful, non practicing, dissenting but even if the disagreement is so severe that the person becomes excommunicated, they are still Catholic. At least according to the Catholic Church.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Amen. And even though I’ve known of people even here on CAF say someone can’t be Catholic if they are pro choice or this or that, as Ben said the Catholic Church’s answer is you retain the imprint on your soul regardless of how far you stray. Even if the disagreement is so severe that the person becomes excommunicated, they are still Catholic. At least according to the Catholic Church.

Oh yes, once Catholic always Catholic. The question though was “practicing Catholic in good standing”. A person who actively supports abortion or what have you is not acting as a Catholic should and should not present himself for the sacraments, though he definitely is still Catholic.

 

[CMatt25]

Oh yes, once Catholic always Catholic. The question though was “practicing Catholic in good standing”. A person who actively supports abortion or what have you is not acting as a Catholic should and should not present himself for the sacraments, though he definitely is still Catholic.

Before I saw your post I had gone back to edit mine. God bless! Peace.

 

[Marocchino]

Q 1. When does disagreement become heresy, schism?

A 1. Holding a belief that conflicts with an infallible doctrine becomes heresy / schism when the person is made aware of the true doctrine but remains obstinate in his error.

Q 2. Can leaders within the church intellectually disagree with things, while still remaining faithful and submissive to Christ in the body?

A 2. No - faithfulness and submission to Christ involves accepting all of His revealed truths as taught by His Church.

Q 3. What if he or she [a layperson] disagrees on a few matters but still upholds the basics of the faith?

A 3. A basic doctrine of the faith is that the Church’s teachings are protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, rejecting even one of the Church’s teachings involves rejection of this most basic teaching.

Q 4. Can he or she still think of himself or herself as a practicing Catholic in good standing?

A 4. No - if he is aware of his error and remains obstinate, he would be deceiving himself by thinking he is in good standing when, in fact, he is on the road to perdition.

 

[coachdennis]

Q 1. When does disagreement become heresy, schism?

A 1. Holding a belief that conflicts with an infallible doctrine becomes heresy / schism when the person is made aware of the true doctrine but remains obstinate in his error.

Q 2. Can leaders within the church intellectually disagree with things, while still remaining faithful and submissive to Christ in the body?

A 2. No - faithfulness and submission to Christ involves accepting all of His revealed truths as taught by His Church.

Q 3. What if he or she [a layperson] disagrees on a few matters but still upholds the basics of the faith?

A 3. A basic doctrine of the faith is that the Church’s teachings are protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, rejecting even one of the Church’s teachings involves rejection of this most basic teaching.

Q 4. Can he or she still think of himself or herself as a practicing Catholic in good standing?

A 4. No - if he is aware of his error and remains obstinate, he would be deceiving himself by thinking he is in good standing when, in fact, he is on the road to perdition.

Source???

 

[hn160]

Reading some of these posts, I have a question. In the Lutheran mind ( LC-MS ), when you go to receive Holy Communion, the ones receiving are suppose to be of like mind in doctrine and faith. If a Catholic is pro-abortion which is a sin ( even in the LC-MS ), how can they receive Communion?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Reading some of these posts, I have a question. In the Lutheran mind ( LC-MS ), when you go to receive Holy Communion, the ones receiving are suppose to be of like mind in doctrine and faith. If a Catholic is pro-abortion which is a sin ( even in the LC-MS ), how can they receive Communion?

They’re not supposed to. I would guess they do anyway because of poor catechesis or because they either don’t believe that supporting abortion is a sin, or that Catholic doctrine really condemns it, or that when the Church says something like this that it is definitively said, or that the Church can tell them not to receive communion, or some combination thereof.

 

[edwest2]

1. Disagree. This often involves confusion or misunderstanding, up to and including: I, personally, disagree and think the Church is wrong. Such people should be presented with Church documents, including references to the Catechism and credible Catholic Sources, such as published statements from the Pope.
2. Disagree and promote. This is where those inside and outside the Church, with knowledge, intentionally voice their disagreement. Even going so far as creating groups that support and promote abortion or women being priests as a legitimate idea. As good ideas.
3. Heresy is opposing Church doctrine. ewtn.com/faith/teachings/index.htm

Which is broken down to cover various specific doctrines.

1. Dogma is, surprisingly, well-defined here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_dogma

Dissension within the Church “helped” to bring us to where we are today, starting in the 1960s and 1970s.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704586504574654282563939764.html

The primary assault began in 1968. I was there, but most of us were unaware of what was to come.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Like any other church we have liberal conservative and moderate Catholics.

We have democrats like Caroline Kennedy and how she sees Catholicism differs from how another may see more obedient conservative approach.

But end of the day we all celebrate our God.

God is no respecter of persons. Labels should never apply since such labels encourage division. Yes, there are those who are led astray, so let us each do what we can to bring them back to a right understanding, including Caroline Kennedy.

Peace,
Ed

 

[mardukm]

Amen. And even though I’ve known of people even here on CAF say someone can’t be Catholic if they are pro choice or this or that, as Ben said the Catholic Church’s answer is you retain the imprint on your soul regardless of how far you stray. They might be less than fully faithful, non practicing, dissenting but even if the disagreement is so severe that the person becomes excommunicated, they are still Catholic. At least according to the Catholic Church.

Ironically, this imprint is going to make it much worse for an unrepentant Christian on the Day of judgment.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Good topic, Dan.

However, could a bishop still remain in disagreement with the rest of the body, holding his view privately, without leaving the church or trying to disrupt it?

It depends on the impetus for disagreement. Is it doubt, or is it obstinacy? Doubt can be due to lack of understanding or lack of information/knowledge (for example, if a bishop was not present at the Council to participate in the discussions). If it is doubt, as long as the bishop does not openly express his disagreement, he will remain a bishop.

If he expresses his disagreement publicly on a matter settled by an Ecumenical Council, he will have a formal trial wherein he is given a chance to reassess his views and align or re-align himself with orthodoxy (unless the matter has caused severe scandal). If he remains obstinate, he will be deposed.

When does disagreement become heresy, schism?

If the bishop is obstinate after given a chance to repent.

Can leaders within the church intellectually disagree with things, while still remaining faithful and submissive to Christ in the body?

Yes, as long as he submits himself to the decision of the Church (despite doubts and disagreement) and promises to promote the teaching, and does not publically cause a scandal for his disagreement. If his personal heresy is never known, the Church cannot pronounce sentence on him, and his ministry can “validly” continue. But God alone will judge him for his personal heresy.

Likewise with the layman: what if he or she disagrees on a few matters but still upholds the basics of the faith? Can he or she still think of himself or herself as a practicing Catholic in good standing?

Again, it depends on the the impetus for disagreement - doubt or obstinacy. If doubt, he/she can remain a Catholic in good standing. Otherwise, no.

In both cases, if the private obstinate heretic/sinner continues to receive the Eucharist, it will be to his/her spiritual ruin.

Blessings,
Marduk