Dissent and the Prospective Convert

[steve_b]

I have been studying the Catholic Church for some time now, as many of you know. I had even entered the RCIA program, back in September. However, due to a heavy training schedule (I’m in the Army), I missed many classes. I had also been looking into Eastern Orthodoxy at the same time. As such, I determined that, even if the priest was able to work out some way for me to enter the Church, despite my numerous missed classes, I simply was not ready.

I ended up in a sort of spiritual stalemate for a while. I knew I could not remain Protestant, but I was simply unable to make a decision between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. However, while I was traveling home on leave and back, I finished reading Stephen K. Ray’s book Crossing the Tiber, most particularly the section at the end which gave significant testimony to the Church’s teachings on Baptism and the Eucharist. I had believed it for some time, but the traditional Christian position on these issues was reinforced, and I knew I belonged in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. To continue to remain outside it due to indecision was something I could not do.

A choice still has to be made, however, and this is where I am today. I feel the draw of the Catholic Church, in a way that goes beyond the intellectual strength of its arguments. Without spending paragraphs (or pages) on all my thoughts and comparisons, I’ll simply say this: I feel that I ought to be Catholic.

However, there is an obstacle of sorts, and while it is not sufficient to keep me away, it is still troubling. The issue is the apparently widespread dissent within the Church. Whether the dissenters are agitating for gay marriage, abortion rights, more “permissive” rules on sexual behavior, female priests, etc. or saying that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid and the recent popes have no authority, their activities are very distressing for a prospective convert. I am particularly concerned by the fact that the Church, at least in America, seems to be doing very little about this. By contrast, I do not hear about such things in the Orthodox Church, though perhaps they just do not get as much press coverage.

The Catholicism presented on Catholic Answers, EWTN, and the books by converts such as Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, and others is very attractive. However, I am concerned that the Catholicism in the real world is something very different. As I start looking at other Catholic perspectives beyond the orthodox center, I am reminded of the old stereotypes of my Protestant youth. Namely that Catholics live exactly like non-Christians and then just go to Confession (or not, as the case may be).

I guess I fear being disillusioned. I know that even if 99% of those in the Church were openly dissenting, that this would not be a reason to stay away. And I applaud the latest efforts by Catholic Answers to answer the dissenters, as well as Pope Benedict XVI’s guidelines for bringing the liturgy back in line. I’m just a bit concerned by the state of the Church.

Does anyone have any advice for me on this? Any idea why the Orthodox Church seems to have been spared this flood of dissent, while the Catholic Church has not?

Finally, I ask for and would deeply appreciate your prayers.

God bless!

When I think of Dissenters, past, present or future, I remind myself of the Bread of Life discourse. [Jn 6:50…] over half of Jesus disciples left Him over His teaching never to return. Is there any better communicator than Jesus? How is it 50% left Him over THIS teaching? EVEN JESUS wasn’t spared from dissenters.

Be not afraid.

 

[steve_b]

Thank you all for the very encouraging replies! They have been very helpful.

One of the problems, I think, is that I come from an Evangelical Protestant background, where solid teaching on morality was common. I was also heavily involved with the group Campus Crusade for Christ while I was in college, where this trend continued. To give one example, my pastors or the speakers at Campus Crusade would not hesitate to speak against pre-marital sex. By contrast, just yesterday, I read an article at a Catholic website (run by the Paulists), in which the writer tries to justify pre-marital sex in a committed relationship, as well as criticizing the Church for it’s uncompromising stand. I mention this because this article was the “last straw,” I suppose, which inspired me to start this thread.

Looking for loopholes to comit sin is the consequence of Original Sin. It will be with us till the end of time.

 

[wanner47]

Iambic Pen,

I think it comes down to a simple question, really.

Do you think that the Catholic Church is the TRUE church founded by Jesus Christ?

If so, how can you let *anything *keep you away from it?

God bless you in your journey. You are in my prayers.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Hey IP!

Do ya really think, (after all you have been through) that the Holy Spirit would ever let you slide like that? C’mon brother… If he won’t do that for me then you can bet your last pair of unholey socks that he won’t do that with you either.

Ah, you are right of course. Thank you for the encouragement!

Understand something crucial. We (each of us individually) are the revival in the Catholic Church and we are growing every moment of every day by the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Awesome! Truly something important to remember.

Hurry home my friend. I’m waiting on the bank of the Tiber with a big warm towel a and a life ring if you happen get into trouble on the swim.

Thanks!

mardukm:
I appreciate your very insightful comments. And yes, I do believe the Catholic Church has the best claim, by far. And I do look forward to joining it.

The next few decades can be as exciting a time for orthodox Catholics as the 60s and 70s were for dissenting and “spirit of Vatican II” Catholics. You in or you out?

In, I hope!

I’ve talked a bit about the modernist dissenter types, and how they can be very frustrating. Your advice has been very helpful in dealing with this, and I thank you all. However, there is another kind of dissenter who has proven to be a bit more challenging. Namely, the traditionalist dissenter. I’m not talking about the sedevacantists and such (about whom I will say no more on this forum ), but rather the ones who insist they are defending Catholic truth, even in opposition to the current teaching of the Church. I have a great respect for the traditionalist viewpoint, but it still troubles me. The teachings of the Catholic Church, so far as I understand them, give a strong portrayal of both God’s justice and His mercy, His insistence on righteousness, but also His mercy on the ignorant. The traditionalist view makes me fear that this view of God is a rather new one…

I should probably avoid the Traditional Catholicism forum at this early time in my faith journey. However, I am fascinated by history and such, and, as you know, I am troubled by the modernists. Well, I ended up starting a thread on limbo, at someone’s request, and I find the discussion rather disheartening.

The traditionalist viewpoint seems to be that EENS must be interpreted in the most rigid terms (think Feeneyism), that the existence of Limbo is de fide, and that the post-Vatican II Church is proclaiming false teachings. I’m not getting all of this from my thread, of course, but rather from my journeys around the Internet.

This all confuses me. I want to trust the Church, but what I read troubles me. On the one hand, I am often horrified at the traditionalist portrayal of God and the Church. On the other hand, I wonder if they are right. What to do, what to do…

I should mention, though, that I am not, in any way, mocking those who love the more traditional elements of Catholicism. I love the Latin mass myself, as well as the apparently deeper reverence.

God bless!

 

[clmowry]

There will always be discent from someone in the Church.

Ultimately it is all to easy to find someone who has appointed thierself as pope (and indirectlly as their own god.)

Is is all very sad to me. They beat themselves against a foundation stone that ultimately they cannot move and in fact cannot be moved. The truth is the truth and that simply cannot be change.

To a degree, I think this is part of the problem. It seems to me that in recent Church history there has been no real fear that heresy will ever overcome the truth. As a result wide spread errors are corrected in very academic exhortations from the Pope and occasionally our Bishops but perhaps in a way that is overly concerned for the feelings of the discenters. We fail to “attack” a problem head on and leave the perception that discent is acceptable.

I share yor concern. Sometimes I just wish a Bishop would yank a pro-abortion polition out of the communion line by his ear and demand that he either publically recant his position or kindly refrain from participationin the sacraments until he/she does so.

Maybe everyone else would start to get the point.

Chuck

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve talked a bit about the modernist dissenter types, and how they can be very frustrating. Your advice has been very helpful in dealing with this, and I thank you all. However, there is another kind of dissenter who has proven to be a bit more challenging. Namely, the traditionalist dissenter. I’m not talking about the sedevacantists and such (about whom I will say no more on this forum ), but rather the ones who insist they are defending Catholic truth, even in opposition to the current teaching of the Church.

We can fall into the ditch on either side of the road. The Catholic way is to stick to the middle. That’s why I hate terms like “conservative” and “liberal” when used for Catholics, as though it were bad to be a liberal, and good to be a conservative. We Catholics are both while discarding whatever is un-Christ-like about each.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Sometimes I just wish a Bishop would yank a pro-abortion polition out of the communion line by his ear and demand that he either publically recant his position or kindly refrain from participationin the sacraments until he/she does so.

Maybe everyone else would start to get the point.

That would certainly get people talking.

We can fall into the ditch on either side of the road. The Catholic way is to stick to the middle. That’s why I hate terms like “conservative” and “liberal” when used for Catholics, as though it were bad to be a liberal, and good to be a conservative. We Catholics are both while discarding whatever is un-Christ-like about each.

Sounds good.

What concerns me about the traditionalist dissenters is their view that Church teachings are actually much harsher than the modern Church portrays them, and that modern documents such as the Catechism are either not binding or are unclear. I know my Protestant upbringing (as well as my rebellion against parts of it) influences my thinking, but here are a few thoughts I have:

1. If God condemns a person to eternal suffering, purely because the person was ignorant of the Church and never received baptism, then God is neither just nor merciful.
2. Sometimes when it comes to theological matters, it is okay for the Church to say, “We don’t know.”
3. It is not unreasonable to believe that God may have ways of saving people which we are not aware of, and which go beyond the sacraments.

My understanding is that the traditionalists would condemn all three of my above statements. And, it is also my understanding that what the traditionalists are saying now is what the whole Church used to say at one time. As such, the same truths must remain today. Therefore, the Catholic Church teaches doctrines which I cannot in good conscience accept, because I believe they portray God as being cruel and unjust. The problem may be with me and my perceptions, but until I resolve this issue I cannot publicly state that I believe all that the Catholic Church teaches.

Please continue to pray for me…

 

[jmcrae]

What concerns me about the traditionalist dissenters is their view that Church teachings are actually much harsher than the modern Church portrays them, and that modern documents such as the Catechism are either not binding or are unclear.

Well then don’t pay any attention to them. You already know that these people are dissenters; why take their opinions into account?

The Catechism is our official teaching document. It’s not “infallible” because it’s not a person. It’s not “inerrant” because it was written by people who were trying their best to convey Church teaching, but not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There will be other Catechisms in the future. By the way, the Baltimore Catechism wasn’t considered “inerrant” either, for the same reasons.

1. If God condemns a person to eternal suffering, purely because the person was ignorant of the Church and never received baptism, then God is neither just nor merciful.

The Catholic Church does not speculate (and never has speculated) about who is in Hell.

1. Sometimes when it comes to theological matters, it is okay for the Church to say, “We don’t know.”

And frequently does. And always has.

1. It is not unreasonable to believe that God may have ways of saving people which we are not aware of, and which go beyond the sacraments.

This is certainly in line with Catholic thinking throughout the ages.

My understanding is that the traditionalists would condemn all three of my above statements. And, it is also my understanding that what the traditionalists are saying now is what the whole Church used to say at one time.

I’m just going through Denzinger’s The Sources of Catholic Dogma, which is actually a favourite book of many traditionalist Catholics.

It’s surprising how little has changed, really. The writings of the early Popes and even the Medieval Popes sound so much like what is written in the Catechism, and what our current Pope is writing that it’s clear very little has changed. We understand some things better, or at least differently, but the same attitudes are always there - searching for God, and figuring out how best to serve the people of God.

Please continue to pray for me…

You got it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The Iambic Pen:

I’m in the Army

Thank you for your service.
The Iambic Pen:

I missed many classes. I had also been looking into Eastern Orthodoxy at the same time. As such, I determined that, even if the priest was able to work out some way for me to enter the Church, despite my numerous missed classes, I simply was not ready.

No worries. God does not trick. God does not force. God does not rush. Neither do we. Take your time.
The Iambic Pen:

However, there is an obstacle of sorts, and while it is not sufficient to keep me away, it is still troubling. The issue is the apparently widespread dissent within the Church.

Reality check: this dissent is scarey. You are right to be cautious about entering a Church which is the target of so much attack from within and from without.

You can expect to be a little person in the Church. You can expect to be persecuted in the Church. But, Pen, you are so far ahead of the game being in the Army. In the Army they start everyone as a little guy, at least in the Canadian Army. And surely you are not unaware of the military-bashing that goes on in the media.

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.

High places, or heavenly places. . .That is to say, in the air, the lowest of the celestial regions; in which God permits these wicked spirits or fallen angels to wander.

Therefore, take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day and to stand in all things perfect.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth and having on the breastplate of justice:

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace.

In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one.

And take unto you the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God). Eph 6:12-16 (DRC)

The Iambic Pen:

I am particularly concerned by the fact that the Church, at least in America, seems to be doing very little about this.

Well, the media does not report on what the Church is doing right only what the media thinks the Church is doing wrong. Information is power. Change what you listen to.
The Iambic Pen:

…that Catholics live exactly like non-Christians and then just go to Confession.

Ah, but the rub is in the “just.” As if it is like falling off a log to go to Confession. Confession is supposed to be hard. We are dealing with a very serious thing here. At least in as much as coming directly into the presence of our Merciful and Just Almighty God and asking for forgiveness.
The Iambic Pen:

I guess I fear being disillusioned.

Did you fear being disillusioned in the Army? We have some military posters on Catholic Answers. Al Masetti is ex Air Force. Vern Humphrey is ex Army (infantry). Both are very knowledgable Catholics. Forgive me for whom I did not mention. I do not mean any slight by it. Only that I don’t know everyone’s background.
The Iambic Pen:

I’m just a bit concerned by the state of the Church.

Realistically so. But at your stage of learning, you have your hands full with learning. Take your time and give yourself a chance to successful in small things. Do not try to be a corporal when you are still in basic training.
The Iambic Pen:

Does anyone have any advice for me on this? Any idea why the Orthodox Church seems to have been spared this flood of dissent, while the Catholic Church has not?

Oh… the Orthodox Church has not been spared. Think about the places in the world where the Orthodox Churches is located… the Orthodox Church has been in a pitted battle.
The Iambic Pen:

Finally, I ask for and would deeply appreciate your prayers.

Done. God bless you.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Well then don’t pay any attention to them. You already know that these people are dissenters; why take their opinions into account?

Yes, I probably shouldn’t. I just get confused, but it appears that finding out what actually is Church teaching is more difficult to determine than I had previously thought. If the Catechism contradicts previous teaching, can it be trusted?

The Catechism is our official teaching document. It’s not “infallible” because it’s not a person. It’s not “inerrant” because it was written by people who were trying their best to convey Church teaching, but not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There will be other Catechisms in the future. By the way, the Baltimore Catechism wasn’t considered “inerrant” either, for the same reasons.

But, despite what the traditionalists say, nothing in the Catechism contradicts previous teaching?

The Catholic Church does not speculate (and never has speculated) about who is in Hell.

Not individuals, perhaps, but has it ever said, “All those who die without baptism are in Hell, with the more innocent dwelling in a nicer part of Hell known as limbo,” or something like that?

It’s surprising how little has changed, really. The writings of the early Popes and even the Medieval Popes sound so much like what is written in the Catechism, and what our current Pope is writing that it’s clear very little has changed. We understand some things better, or at least differently, but the same attitudes are always there - searching for God, and figuring out how best to serve the people of God.

I hope that’s true. This can be very confusing…

Ah, but the rub is in the “just.” As if it is like falling off a log to go to Confession. Confession is supposed to be hard. We are dealing with a very serious thing here. At least in as much as coming directly into the presence of our Merciful and Just Almighty God and asking for forgiveness.

What I’m wondering, though, is if the seriousness of Confession is being taught at the parish level. If it isn’t, this isn’t a sign that the Catholic Church is not the true Church, or anything, but it is a problem.

Did you fear being disillusioned in the Army?

Well, I think I was fairly prepared that not all in the Army would be wondrous, beautiful and praiseworthy. I guess because I hold the Church to a higher standard, the fear of being disillusioned is greater.

Realistically so. But at your stage of learning, you have your hands full with learning. Take your time and give yourself a chance to successful in small things. Do not try to be a corporal when you are still in basic training.

Very true. I am *very *conscious of how little I know, but sometimes I am tempted to wish I knew less. I am sure most faithful Catholics don’t concern themselves with precise definitions of original sin, don’t think about the *filioque *controversy, whether limbo exists and what that means, whether development of doctrine is a valid concept, etc…They just want to love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength, and love their neighbor as themselves.

Oh… the Orthodox Church has not been spared. Think about the places in the world where the Orthodox Churches is located… the Orthodox Church has been in a pitted battle.

Well, they’ve been in a pitted battle against the threat of extermination by Muslims and communists. However, so far as I know, they haven’t had this massive amount of dissent from within the Church.

God bless!

 

[jmcrae]

What I’m wondering, though, is if the seriousness of Confession is being taught at the parish level. If it isn’t, this isn’t a sign that the Catholic Church is not the true Church, or anything, but it is a problem.

One bad teacher, or even a lot of bad teachers, does not cause the teaching itself to be incorrect. If you know that Confession is really important, then you don’t need to wait for someone to tell you, right?

I remember when I was a kid, when Pierre Elliot Trudeau was first elected Prime Minister of Canada, a law was passed that all children must learn French. My parents had been sending me to French school for just this purpose at the time that this law was passed - I was in the third grade at the time. So, my parents decided that since French was now mandatory in all schools, they took me out of French school (which was a private school) and sent me to English public school (which was free, and also within walking distance of home.)

Well, when I walked into my first French class at the English school, I couldn’t understand a single word that the teacher was saying in French, her accent was so bad. She was also very confused about French grammar, and taught us all sorts of things that were simply not true. I feel sure that every English school west of Winnipeg was experiencing the same sort of problem - BUT, does the fact that they threw teachers in to teach French classes who barely knew the language mean:

That it is not important to learn French?

That the rules of grammar in French do not actually exist?

That the pronounciation of French can be anything you want?

It’s the same thing with the teachings of the Church. They always are what they are, regardless of how good or bad the teacher is.

It’s always really important (and this is regardless of the subject) to be always doing personal research and digging deeper, as well as learning whatever you can in class, etc.

And, just as it’s always better to get a native speaker to teach you a new language, it’s also best to look to cradle Catholics to see what’s considered normal.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Sounds good! Thanks for the post!

Oh, and Western Canada is gorgeous!

 

[Ahimsa]

The Catholicism presented on Catholic Answers, EWTN, and the books by converts such as Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, and others is very attractive. However, I am concerned that the Catholicism in the real world is something very different.

Interesting. My perspective is almost exactly the opposite.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Here’s a quick update. In reading the arguments of these traditionalist dissenters, I have come to some possible (though by no means certain) conclusions. Perhaps I am wrong, but it appears that it used to be Church teaching that unbaptized infants and righteous (to the best of their knowledge) pagans were absolutely, with no exceptions for “invincible ignorance” or “baptism of desire” (which apparently only applied to those preparing to enter the Church), barred from Heaven. Theologians then came up with the idea of Limbo to soften this teaching a bit and offer some form of hope for these people. Now, however, the Church has said that Limbo is not a doctrine, it may not exist at all, and we are now free to hope that the unbaptized *may *enter Heaven. Also, according to the Catechism, we may *hope *that righteous pagans may, somehow, by God’s mercy, enter Heaven as well.

I am now faced with some troubling conclusions. Either the Catholic Church has changed its teachings, proving that it is not infallible, as it claims, or the newer teachings are not official and the old teachings still stand. The first possibility essentially means that the Catholic Church does teach error, and one cannot know if a teaching is true. The second possibility is that the Church never “officially” teaches error, but it is currently suffering from modernist “heresies.”

I cannot accept the first possibility and then join the Church, because what confidence can I have that I am even in the Church at all? After all, if the Church can teach error, perhaps it has been for some time. One may as well be Protestant, as at least one does not have to make the awkward claim that their error-teaching Church is infallible.

I cannot accept the second possibility either, as I cannot in good conscience think of God as the harsh, cruel being that the traditional Catholic teaching appears to portray Him as being. To be sure, we do not *know *the pagans or unbaptized are saved, but to *insist *that they are not seems to be an attempt to limit God’s power and mercy.

My hope is that there is a third possibility, but this situation has left me quite confused. Coming into the Church is a more difficult experience than I thought it would be… I ask for all of your prayers.

Finally, I will be leaving for the Middle East tomorrow, so I will not be able to return to the forum for a while. Please feel free to leave comments, and I will read them as soon as I am able. Last time I was there, we had Internet access from time to time, so my hope is that this will still be the case.

God bless!

 

[jmcrae]

In 110 AD, St. Ignatius of Antioch said, “Where the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.”

The Catholic Church is the Church of the Bishop of Rome. Stick with him, and you’re Catholic. Depart from him, and you are not Catholic. It’s that simple. (And that complicated. But at least it’s a sure starting place.)

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Thanks for the post! I must admit I posted the above when I was feeling a bit down and frustrated. I’m feeling better now!

God bless!

 

[Genesis315]

You might be interested in reading Cardinal Newman’s “Development of Christian Doctrine.”

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I brought it with me on my deployment, so I’ll get to it soon. Right now I’m reading Upon This Rock, by Stephen K. Ray.