Dissent at RCIA?

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Interestingly, the gospel reading today covered this in the discussion of leading one into sin (scandal). Your RCIA teacher is committing grave scandal by leading, from her position of authority, the weak (in this case, those uneducated in the faith, and depending on her to teach them the true faith without distortion) into “the corruption of religious practice”. According to the CCC, your RCIA teacher is as bad as the scribes and Pharasees; she is a wolf in sheep’s clothing:

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.
 
Hi maireteresa
Here is and example which runs 75-90 seconds

*In this thread it was mentioned or implied that one should show “Obedience” to the Catechist, Facilitator, or Priest. This was an opinion and not the church teaching. The church teaching is that Catholics are to be obedient to God, and the Church, the church is defined by the Magisterium, and the Ex Cathedra teachings of the Pope. As others have pointed out Jesus was not “Obedient” to the Scribes or Pharisees. Catholics are not to have complete obedience to the Priest either. Unless you have been living under a rock for the last few years you have heard of some members of the Priesthood who certainly participated in acts which were illegal and immoral. Similarly it is not uncommon to refer Catholic issued to the diocese office when members of the laity, that is us, believe something in the Parish is clashing with correct Church teaching. Please remember a couple of important issues 1) You should always start in the Parish office and only go to the Diocese if the issue was not reasonable resolved in the church office and 2) All Catholics are called to be humble. *
 
The Saints were obedient even to priests who were great sinners, and to Bishops and other authorities who were completely wrong about certain things. (St. Teresa of Avila waited years to be given permission to forbid postulants from being allowed to have their boyfriends visit them in their rooms.)

The Protestant Reformers took matters into their own hands, and preached when they had no authority or permission to preach, and even founded their own religions when the Catholic Church seemed too slow for them.

Me, I’m hoping to become a Saint, rather than end up where ever the Protestant Reformers ended up. 😉
 
I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but…when a priest tells a little boy not to tell anyone that he has been molested by said priest that the little boy should obey???

Is this the kind of obedience to the priest several of you are talking about?
 
As we start our Q&A today we need to review an earlier issue concerning the relationship to obedience and Sainthood. Frankly there is little relationship. Saints are people who either lead exemplary lives or performed and exemplary religious duty. Basically the Bishop over the region submits a written recommendation for the canonization of the person to the Vatican bureaucracy. A specific office in the bureaucracy controls this process. The office investigates the Bishop’s recommendations and looks for a sign from God as a miracle. If the office finds sufficient ground a recommendation is made to the Pope who canonizes the new Saint. Now as obedience has come up again let us do 2 things first if you will look with me at the index in the “Catechism” you will see the list of references to obedience and you may read all of these if you desire. Please understand Catechists are to teach Catechism not personal opinions. So if you look at this list for obedience you will see the primary teaching is “1900” which is a paragraph not a page. In this book the page is 463 with paragraph 1900 which reads: " The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good will. " -Catechism of the Catholic Church second edition 1992

(this correction may take 100-120 seconds)
 
LeahInancsi said:
I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but…when a priest tells a little boy not to tell anyone that he has been molested by said priest that the little boy should obey???

Is this the kind of obedience to the priest several of you are talking about?
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No. You aren’t required to obey someone who tells you to sin.

What we are talking about is someone appointing himself to be RCIA Catechist and giving a lecture during the Q&A period that contradicts the lecture that has just been presented.

Thus doing two things: subverting the purpose of the Q&A period, and undermining the authority of the appointed catechist.

The resulting effect is to give the RCIA participants the impression that the Catholic Church has no more order than any typical “non-denominational” Protestant church they might attend, where anyone and everyone can stand up and give a sermon, and that there aren’t any actual “teachings of the church” - everything is a matter of personal opinion, which can be argued willy-nilly. (They aren’t going to “get” the subtle distinction that you are right and the catechist is wrong. In most cases, they won’t be able to tell which is right and which is wrong.)

In the Catholic Church, we actually have channels for dealing with this kind of thing. Yes, it’s not as much fun to follow proper channels as it is to rise up and publicly make thunderous accusations, but they are there for a reason.

Another thing to consider: do you want the RCIA participants to follow your example at the next Mass they attend? After all, having observed you, they could think it perfectly legitimate to stand up at Mass and rebut the Homily with their own opinions on various issues.
Catechism 1900 " The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good will. "
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This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say.
 
Each person attending Catholic education is taught about the Catechism and Canon Law, catechumens and candidates often sit in silence because they are afraid of saying the wrong thing and that is sad. It is unwise to misunderstand this silence.
 
jmcrae said:
No. You aren’t required to obey someone who tells you to sin.
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Now the wagon has gone full circle, see they did not know most forms of birth control were a sin because the Catechist strayed.
 
See Catechist lack authority to teach opinions, define allowed birth control, demand obedience, qualify saints, stifle sponsors, or decide what proper channels are. The Catechism is not the personal option of Catholics it is the official teachings of the Church. Similarly Catechist, RCIA Coordinators, Facilitators should not accuse, scare, or threaten any one in the RCIA program of being called “subverting the purpose”, “non-denominational Protestant”, or a disrupters of Mass. Catholics are not authorized to act in this manor, and Catholics are not required to endure this type of behavior.
 
Texas_Roofer said:
See Catechist lack authority to teach opinions, define allowed birth control, demand obedience, qualify saints, stifle sponsors, or decide what proper channels are.
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The proper channels already exist. The Church put them there; not the catechist.

The sponsor has a specific role already - accompany their candidate on the journey to becoming Catholic, support them by their presence and prayers at their Rites, and make sure they are getting what they need. I am not trying to “stifle” the sponsors, but we each have our role. You can’t assume a different role without the say-so of the priest, even if the person currently occupying that role is a total dunderhead.
The Catechism is not the personal option of Catholics it is the official teachings of the Church. Similarly Catechist, RCIA Coordinators, Facilitators should not accuse, scare, or threaten any one in the RCIA program of being called “subverting the purpose”, “non-denominational Protestant”, or a disrupters of Mass. Catholics are not authorized to act in this manor, and Catholics are not required to endure this type of behavior.
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The proper response is to let the priest know what is going on, and let him as the “superior officer” of the catechist do the disciplining - including firing them and replacing them with you, if he so chooses - but don’t just usurp the catechist without authorization from the priest.
 
Can I modify post # 30 to include “dunderhead” as things which RCIA people should not be subjected to.

My I make a personal comment? There is certainly a Priest out there with time to review every single thing said and interpreted in RCIA but I do not know that Priest. I would advise that such minor issues not be blown into federal cases. If the “leader” continues to oppose the church that is different but frankly running to the Priest every time someone spoke in error seems rather childish. The concept that “others” can not speak or are subject to the comments we are seeing in this thread is a much larger concern to me. So the leader made a mistake correct it and move on - RCIA is about the students not the teachers. If any Sponsor, Catechumens and Candidates are enduring fear, tongue lashing, or repeated distorted comment in is not actually an RCIA class and the Priest should be informed.
 
They also should not be subjected to someone commandeering the Q&A period to pontificately and at great length call fire and brimstone down on the Catechist, thus providing no time for the actual Q&A, and sowing confusion about who is the teacher.

Better to phrase it in the form of a Question - ie: Does the Church not still teach that artificial birth control is a grave sin? (To which the answer can only be “Yes.”)

Instead of giving a rebuttal speech, as if RCIA were a debating society.
 
Dear Friends
Thank you again for your insightful comments and discussions.
If I had known this person was a leader in RCIA, I wouldn’t have joined up, as I have heard her speak before. But I didn’t know.
I don’t think I can take this kind of leadership for a year.

I emailed my cathechumen with the correct teaching and wasn’t reassured by the reply. Well why should she believe me? She heard the Leader speak with authority about birth control. However she did pass on my email to 2 young family members who are also in RCIA.

I will speak to one of the other leaders who is a personal friend of my husband and me. I of course don’t want to tell the pastor - it is like telling tales, and I hate to say anything bad about anyone. This person is involved in just about everything in the church, she is a daily Mass goer, in St. V de Paul etc. I feel terrible. But I have to do the right thing.
Also I’ll print out the correct teaching and give it to her. I come from a large family .I’m very happy God wasn’t turned away when He wanted to create me or my wonderful siblings.
maireteresa.
 
Hi again Maire Teresa

From reading your post it appears your in the “How to” phase not the “What to do” phase, the good news is often the Priest already knows and has experience in handling these issues so please contact him. If the problem continues I would remind the Priest each time. As a Sponsor you are responsible to provide the correct teaching to your catechumen. Is a Deacon available for you and the catechumen while the Priest deals with the Catchiest? Try very hard to show no emotion, as that usually creates problems. Also remember you or the catechumen can write email requests for clarification to this forum or the EWTN website. I hope you have a copy of the Catechism available.
 
mairegal said:
Dear Friends
Thank you again for your insightful comments and discussions.
If I had known this person was a leader in RCIA, I wouldn’t have joined up, as I have heard her speak before. But I didn’t know.
I don’t think I can take this kind of leadership for a year.

I emailed my cathechumen with the correct teaching and wasn’t reassured by the reply. Well why should she believe me? She heard the Leader speak with authority about birth control. However she did pass on my email to 2 young family members who are also in RCIA.

I will speak to one of the other leaders who is a personal friend of my husband and me. I of course don’t want to tell the pastor - it is like telling tales, and I hate to say anything bad about anyone. This person is involved in just about everything in the church, she is a daily Mass goer, in St. V de Paul etc. I feel terrible. But I have to do the right thing.
Also I’ll print out the correct teaching and give it to her. I come from a large family .I’m very happy God wasn’t turned away when He wanted to create me or my wonderful siblings.
maireteresa.
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I would say you have a moral obligation to inform the pastor and quite possibly to challenge the teacher in class in front of the other students. Challenging privately misses the opportunity to clarify the truth for the students…That’s my opinion, anyway.
 
mairegal said:
I will speak to one of the other leaders who is a personal friend of my husband and me. I of course don’t want to tell the pastor - it is like telling tales, and I hate to say anything bad about anyone. This person is involved in just about everything in the church, she is a daily Mass goer, in St. V de Paul etc. I feel terrible. But I have to do the right thing.
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Mairegal,

I’m sorry your email was not well received. Maybe it will do more good than you hoped.🙂

I would always follow the principle that when trying to get something straightened out that could involve a person’s reputation, that you only tell the absolute minimum number of people about the issue. I’d avoid telling any of the other catechists if that is possible. Though, if you are sure it is not, then it is not. I’m worried because the two work together, so reputation is important there.

Maybe I’m more sensitive than most folk on this issue, though.
 
Pug said:
I’d try to address this issue privately with the instructor herself/himself. Perhaps it can be resolved at that level. Otherwise, I’d talk to the pastor, and soon. I wouldn’t recommend taking over instruction within the class without obtaining permission from the pastor.
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Pug:

I really think this is the Pastor’s job and the Pastor should be given a chance to talk to the teacher before MarieTeresa tries to do so herself. I think MarieTeresa needs to see if the RCIA teacher is teaching this heresy on her own or if she got this from the Pastor or someone else. And, If the Pastor would insist on faithfulness to the teachings of the Church in the RCIA program and elsewhere in the parish.

If she got this from the Pastor, and the Pastor is allowing or even teaching this heresy, MarieTeresa and the other Sponsors who are trying to be faithful to the Teachings of the Church need to talk to each other and make some decisions, because the techers will undermine almost everything they’re trying to instill in the Catechumens.

When I was attending USF, most of the priests at USF agreed with the instructor of this class. All except the ones who were introducing me to the faith. I was very lucky that I chose to believe the guys in he minority who were faithful to the Magisterium than the guys in the majority who were rebelling against the Authority of the Church.

We can only hope that the Teacher didn’t get the idea from the Pastor, and that the Pastor had no idea of what the teacher believed reqarding these core parts of the Gospel of Life. Otherwise, this is going to be a very difficult situation.

You are in my prayers.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
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