Dissent From Catholic Social Teaching: A Study In Irony - Inside The Vatican

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Maximus1 said:
If your point is Prudential judgement, intent, and rash judgement, save it. Jesus didn’t need a psychoanalysis of intent here.
Strictly following the Gospel, this is it.
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There is no “strictly following the gospel” when it comes to deciding which policies will work and which will not. We choose what we think is best and hope we’re right. There is nothing in the gospels that tells us where the minimum wage should be set. We are told to care for the poor, but we are not told how to do it. Those choices are not between good and evil but between what works and what doesn’t.

Let the layman not imagine that his pastors are always such experts, that to every problem which arises, however complicated, they can readily give him a concrete solution, or even that such is their mission. Rather, enlightened by Christian wisdom and giving close attention to the teaching authority of the Church, let the layman take on his own distinctive role. (Gaudium et spes, #43)

It is in fact the responsibility of the layman to govern and to decide which policies are best, and that there can be bitter disagreements over those policies is no indication that the people on opposite sides are not both choosing the best as they see it.

You really ought to let go of the opinion that your political opponents are morally deficient because they oppose your solutions. There is no justification for it.
Crocus said:
Do you think that Catholics support or dissent from the social justice encyclicals?
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How do you judge people to be dissenting? Because you disagree with their policy decisions? Without knowing why someone chooses this instead of that how can you possibly decide whether he is a dissenter? How can you in justice assume the worst?
 
From the Torah, we can see that God’s economic model is capitalism tempered by love and mercy. Honest gain is a blessing from God, but charity is obligatory. He who oppresses the poor or cheats his worker out of his wages is cursed, and he shall be afflicted by God ignoring his prayers, the ruin of his wealth, and even an early death. Besides gleanings and the poor tithe, wealthy Israelites were also commanded to lend generously, without charging interest, and discharge loans in the seventh year. Neither was it permitted to buy farmland, but only to lease it until the next Jubilee, and in no case was it licit to hold a man’s means of survival as collateral for a loan.

Notably, these provisions are all about caring for the disabled, those who have lost their breadwinner, and those who need help getting back on their feet; they are not intended to support those whose poverty is caused by sloth or wine. The gleaner had to go and reap the gleanings him/herself, and it is written, “The wicked man borrows and does not repay.” Unlike charity, government welfare programs often enable vice, because nothing is required of the recipient, nor is the recipient grateful for what the taxpayers give him. Furthermore, excessive taxation prevents the honest worker from building up the savings he needs to support his family through difficult times. What I see too often is that people who advocate increased social spending are eager to raise taxes on others, but miserly with their own funds. They should lead by example, rather than being hypocrites.
 
Well, you’ve all convinced me. I will never employ anyone, seeing as how that’s a trapdoor that leads to chaos and (depending on what the Church imagines “justice” requires) self-beggary. Better not to get oneself involved in such questions in the first place.
 
One of the things I do support unions doing is managing their members’ pension funds, but the trouble is that many unions are corrupt, more interested in what benefits the union leadership than what is in the best interests of the members. Workers have the right to form unions, and to fire those unions if the union does not adequately represent them.
 
Of course, the principle of equal pay for equal work does not demand equal pay for unequal work. An employer stands justified before God and man if he gives the breadwinner first opportunity for overtime or gives him more responsibilities in exchange for extra pay.
 
You can believe what you want. Catholic social policy is clear. What is consistent is clear.
 
And in exchange, the Standard Deduction was doubled and the rates were lowered.
 
Nobody is beating them if they do not work. If they did not regard their paycheck as gain, they would not work, especially now that freelance opportunities are so numerous.
 
Maximus1 said:
You can believe what you want. Catholic social policy is clear.
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There is no Catholic social policy in the sense of requiring this or that particular approach, which is why there could never be such a thing as a Catholic political party. There is Catholic social teaching which provides the objectives (feed the hungry, heal the sick, care for the poor…) but conservatives and liberals are equally free to act on their convictions as to what policies work best to achieve the goals and guidelines the church sets.
 
And of your list, several of the injustices are self-inflicted on the part of the homeless. The addict has to want to quit in order to be able to, and the felon is to blame for his own plight. We should help them, but they need purpose of amendment in order for any help to succeed.
 
On the contrary, the middle class are often overtaxed and underappreciated. To those who are poor, the middle class seem rich. My own grandparents were the object of such delusion by my uncle’s wife.
 
Well, David Bentley Hart Plough has his philosophical take.
~
What vocation was Jesus Christ asking the man with many
possessions to enter into? At the time of the first century
when a Rabbi asked you to be his student it was considered
an great honor. It was rare that those whereby their father was
of a different vocation.
~
Every single rational interpretation of that incident in Holy Scripture
is for anyone to apply it to his or her circumstance and station in life.
Otherwise The Church would require everyone to form Communes,
including families.
~
Greed has been around much longer than free enterprise.
I empathize with everyone, by virtue of being made in the image and
likeness of God who have a thirst for justice, whereby all of the marginalized are cared for. It would be a wonderful world if everyone
repented like Zacchaeus. But free enterprise can be used for good
or evil. Humankind as a whole, by the playing at heartstrings propaganda
of various and sundry philosophies taking hold in the 1800s, which are
fallacious since they do not agree with The Divine Revelation of Jesus Christ, and therefore The Laws of Nature and Nature’s God; with rapid
communication and advertising knowing much about human behavior
have been sold a bill of goods. Much of this ‘bill of goods’ exalts autonomy
over objective beauty(radiant aesthetics), truth, and goodness(ethics) given by our Creator.
~
It is what is inside the human heart that defiles a person as Jesus Christ taught. So the concentration on humankind’s intelligence to solve hardships, and earthly needs based philosophy like the tenets of Marxism,
focuses on desires of the flesh. With so many mixing Christianity with these things the focus on striving individually and as a community on objective moral virtue, then individuals and humankind will not strive to share with others as much. This stands to reason. Whether its the economy of land owners and 7 year contracts and other things presented
in The Holy Bible or free enterprise. (cont…)
 
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God let the worlds major communications in every venue develop an extreme bias conveying ideals contrary to the Creator given Laws of Nature. How did this happen that the pursuit of the ideals of Godliness
so accepted just by being in the image and likeness of God, even though
the Judaeo Christian Ethic is more specific? (An example that shows
virtue can be pursued by being in the image and likeness of God would be in India, the Sacredness of Marriage between one man and one woman was much more highly exalted and reverenced. This has diminished with modern communication.) Mahatma Gandhi loved Jesus Christ.
~
There are not enough communicating as a whole in all the venues of society, in every stewardship level of The Church, we did not counter in all the stations of life that individuals live, by letting Grace help each of us live the Gospel, communicate the Gospel in every venue, and do works in every venue in all due respect to our station in life. The Church always strove to exhort this and do this, for example, Francis of Assisi (who had a different economy in his day.) By the 1400s, according to Dr. David Anders, the Franciscans themselves had a tainted portion, which was part of the propaganda for the Protestant Revolt. It was the heart of humanity, not how we bartered for family’s earthly needs.
~
My admiration grows for ministries like Fellowship of Catholic University Students, and early on the person that I sponsored sent me letters.
She endured loneliness at school because of the left wing bias and much more. But she stuck in out by the Grace of God. My point? We need to reach hearts and minds in every venue not blame institutions like free enterprise, which no one as every shown to be inherently evil. We need to point toward communication media from those who share Godliness to be applied in all venues. Main stream media is so biased and tainted it has an immense detrimental effect on minds.
Things like boycotts were effective during the civil rights of the 1960s. They are less effective today because main stream media will not objectively report them.
~
One of the problems is the world wide communication network in educational, media, and other venues and those who openly or subtly compromise with it, even those doing this in every stewardship level in The Church. Someone’s internal and projection of Godliness does not guarantee that they are Godly. Jesus Christ called some of these white washed tombs full of all manner of corruption. There are those in the world when their witness is taken as a whole, project a concentration on needs based philosophy and give non objective comments on real human justice concerns in the world. To whom much is given, much is required; while I do not know their hearts, only Jesus Christ does, I do not trust them, it could be out of prestige & contrary philosophy. They departed from concentration on creatively communicating the Grace of God through Jesus Christ helps each of us grow in objective virtue to a huge social justice witness showing honor to things like culture of death proponents. We need to grow ‘the great commission.’
Peace.
 
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The laws favor corporations to break pension funds. A tool in the corporate quiver
 
What you just described can be viewed as a loophole to the Gospel purpose. Reasonable minds can differ negates the Catechism, because it allows colorful and creative interpretation?
Example
The first minimum wage law( a state law) was struck as UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
THE BASIS:
SCOTUS said," It violated the Constitutional right of workers to work for slave wages."
A. Hell of a right.
B. Find that in the text.
Capitalism invariably fabricates this level of " creativity" BECAUSE protecting workers rights is 180 degrees I conflict with CAPITALISMS goals. Of course who will know is the sub silentio thought. But that doesn’t work with judgement.
 
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I was clear. He didn’t say anything wrong.
What I see, and what constitutes one of our weaknesses, is that by defining something as prudential( no objection to the definition …) and then jumping to the general concept say “ feed the hungry” ( no objection to that either) , we are not really getting into the mind of the Church . There is a lot more to it than “ feed the hungry” that the Church had said as to how and is guiding us…And this isn t saying that there is a handbook for each thing.
The encyclicals shed a lot of light, and guide us, and explain us , and connect beautifully to each other so we really cannot say it is about “ welcome the stranger” full stop, because the Church has left everything else to “ prudential”…No, not really.
That is the impression I get from some of your posts, Ender.
You do a lot of research and make efforts to post really trying to pay attention to what has been said. That is very valuable. In relation to your post in wages, I suggested we read Laborem Exercens as to walk closer to this topic together, and if you want , and whenever you want.
 
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The problem does in fact lie within David Bentley Hart’s writings I cited on the subject.
At it’s essence, you have a Gospel message hopelessly in Conflict with the base characteristics, practices and ethic of Capitalism.
A Corporation is a legal fiction. A statutory creation and entity.
Statutes require a " corporate purpose" be identified in the Documents forming the entity.
THAT PURPOSE IS FOR-PROFIT with only variations in wording.
In Corporate law, a Corporation opperates Illegally if it takes any action in conflict with the stated purpose. The doctrine is generally that such action is ULTRA VIRES.
FUNDEMENTALLY, the system is set up where the institutions conducting CAPITALISMS transactions cannot act legally in persuit of the goals of the the Gospel. The persuit must be profit. And therein lies the foundation of conflict with the Gospel
 
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What is your point here? If they do not work they perish, don’t you agree?
 
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