Dissenters

[dingodile]

I know many people who, even after years of prayerful study, dissent from the teachings of the Catholic Church. I won’t get into which teachings, because that’s not the purpose of this thread. Suffice it to say that they are the “usual suspect”, mostly.

Some of these people have left the Church because of their dissent. Some remain in the Church, albeit with a great deal of inner struggle and turmoil. Some are lay people; some are priests and nuns.

I think most people here at CAF would say that people outside the Catholic Church who dissent from its teachings should stay outside until such time as they can reconcile their conscience to those teachings. That is, one shouldn’t enter the Church in a condition of dissent. But what about those people who are already in the Caholic Church? Should they leave until they can accept all the teachings wholeheartedly? Or should they stay and try to stifle their dissent?

 

[Anna_Claire]

Dissenting is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it’s necessary in order to bring about needed change. Throughout the Church’s history people have challenged certain teachings. Often they were right to do so. The Holy Spirit blows were it wills…not only among the hierarchy. Today we celebrate the feast day of St Theresa of Avila. She called herself a “faithful dissenter”. She is a Doctor of the Church.

 

[Bookcat]

She called herself a “faithful dissenter”. She is a Doctor of the Church.

…she was not a “dissenter” and any such quote would need to be sourced and understood in context. Certainly she was faithful.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I know many people who, even after years of prayerful study, dissent from the teachings of the Catholic Church. I won’t get into which teachings, because that’s not the purpose of this thread. Suffice it to say that they are the “usual suspect”, mostly.

Some of these people have left the Church because of their dissent. Some remain in the Church, albeit with a great deal of inner struggle and turmoil. Some are lay people; some are priests and nuns.

I think most people here at CAF would say that people outside the Catholic Church who dissent from its teachings should stay outside until such time as they can reconcile their conscience to those teachings. That is, one shouldn’t enter the Church in a condition of dissent. But what about those people who are already in the Caholic Church? Should they leave until they can accept all the teachings wholeheartedly? Or should they stay and try to stifle their dissent?

Define “dissent”, please.

 

[Bookcat]

As Catholics we Profess the Catholic Faith…

We give our YES!

Canon Law:

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

(site for the above: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM)

Also make sure to read this all the way through:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

These major documents from the CDF will be of help:

In terms of Theologians:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19900524_theologian-vocation_en.html

and

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998_professio-fidei_en.html

 

[dingodile]

Define “dissent”, please.

To fail to assent.

In most of the cases I’m personally aware of, the dissent is private, not publicly announced.

 

[dingodile]

As Catholics we Profess the Catholic Faith…

We give our YES!

Yes, I understand that you are expected to assent to all teachings, but what if you found that you could not in good conscience do so? Say you found some doctrine that you simply could not find believable. What would you do in such a case? What would you advise a friend to do?

 

[Bookcat]

We are to know, love and live our faith.

To Follow Jesus of Nazareth in his Church with great faith and hope and love…

As Peter said to him…where would we go…you have the words of eternal life…

In him and thus in his Church indeed is* true life*.

 

[dingodile]

We are to know, love and live our faith.

To Follow Jesus of Nazareth in his Church with great faith and hope and love…

As Peter said to him…where would we go…you have the words of eternal life…

In him and thus in his Church indeed is* true life*.

So…what exactly are you suggesting? Pretend to assent? Remain silent (this is what I meant by “stifle” above)?

 

[Bookcat]

So…what exactly are you suggesting? Pretend to assent? Remain silent (this is what I meant by “stifle” above)?

Say you found some doctrine that you simply could not find believable. What would you do in such a case?

I assent. Pure and simple. With the kind of assent appropriate.

I assent for I know Jesus of Nazareth…I know the reality of the nature of His Church.

The Apostles were it seems were rather confused at the words of Jesus about his giving us his flesh to eat and his blood to drink (such would be appalling to a Jew in particular).

They though knew Jesus. And they knew that he “had the words of eternal life”…so they did go away like some of the disciples who could not accept his teaching …

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Yes, I understand that you are expected to assent to all teachings, but what if you found that you could not in good conscience do so? Say you found some doctrine that you simply could not find believable. What would you do in such a case? What would you advise a friend to do?

I’m in this position, in a few respects.

There’s something perverse about it.

To compare and contrast my mother with myself:

Mother: never read the Bible, never gives a thought about religion outside of mass, and so is able to swallow whatever Rome feeds her, and is assured of eternal salvation.

Myself: inquisitive, Bible-reader, religion and ethics are my primary concern. I’ve been told by religious ed instructors that I “think too much.” As a consequence of examining the Church’s teachings, I’m in a greater position to doubt some of them. Therefore, in danger of eternal hellfire according to Catholic teaching.

I sometimes wonder why God gave us brains if the only ones who are supposed to use them are the people in Rome. Why not make the rest of us mindless drones that can follow and obey without question? Why does God hate (some of) us?

 

[Bookcat]

(not to infer that all those who “struggle” with certain teachings are seeking intentionally to reject the teaching etc…there can be various difficulties that one honestly seeks to overcome…but what is said below is still important to note…and what is there can be very formative for all…even those who struggle)

“Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful.”

Pope Benedict XVI (linked above)

 

[dingodile]

They though knew Jesus. And they knew that he “had the words of eternal life”…so they did go away like some of the disciples who could not accept his teaching …

I’m having some difficulty discerning in your reply an answer to my question, which is what should dissenters actually do? I understand that you are not one, so maybe you simply don’t know how to answer. Or are you saying that the dissenters should leave the Church, like the disciples you mentioned?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

“Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful.”

Pope Benedict XVI (linked above)

I don’t want to be a jerk here but I need to honestly express myself on the issue. It really comes off as if you’re saying, “try not to think!”

Why did God give us brains?

 

[Bookcat]

I’m having some difficulty discerning in your reply an answer to my question, which is what should dissenters actually do? I understand that you are not one, so maybe you simply don’t know how to answer. Or are you saying that the dissenters should leave the Church, like the disciples you mentioned?

You asked: What would you do in such a case?

I answered.

I hope such is helpful to those who are tempted to “dissent”.

(and no hopefully they will not leave but assent and with “Faith -seek understanding” …)

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t want to be a jerk here but I need to honestly express myself on the issue. It really comes off as if you’re saying, “try not to think!”

Why did God give us brains?

Please read the entire homily: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Please read the entire homily: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

I have to go out now, but I have bookmarked the homily to read later. I doubt it will somehow make me understand what the heck the doctrine of the trinity is supposed to be, but reading it couldn’t hurt.

Thank you.

 

[dingodile]

You asked: What would you do in such a case?

I answered.

You did not. You merely responded that you do, in fact, assent. That was never in question. The question of what you would do if you found yourself unable to assent remains unanswered, by you or anyone else in this thread so far. That the Church expects people to assent to its teachings is also not in question.

People can and do study and pray, but they cannot control the outcome of these actions.

I hope such is helpful to those who are tempted to “dissent”.

(and no hopefully they will not leave but assent and with “Faith -seek understanding” …)

By “assent” I don’t just mean the outward expression; I mean internal acceptance of the teaching. If they cannot in good conscience accept the teaching then outward assent is a lie. Is that your answer? They should remain in the Church and “fake it”?

 

[Bookcat]

You did not. You merely responded that you do, in fact, assent. That was never in question.

You asked me:

Say you found some doctrine that you simply could not find believable. What would you do in such a case?

And the answer I gave was and is:

I assent. Pure and simple. With the kind of assent appropriate.

I assent. Pure and simple. With the kind of assent appropriate.

I assent for I know Jesus of Nazareth…I know the reality of the nature of His Church.

The Apostles were it seems were rather confused at the words of Jesus about his giving us his flesh to eat and his blood to drink (such would be appalling to a Jew in particular).

They though knew Jesus. And they knew that he “had the words of eternal life”…so they did go away like some of the disciples who could not accept his teaching …

I one likes one can add the word “would” so it reads “I would assent” in such a case.

 

[Bookcat]

By “assent” I don’t just mean the outward expression; I mean internal acceptance of the teaching.

So do I.