Dissenters

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I one likes one can add the word “would” so it reads “I would assent” in such a case.
Thank you. The premise of the question is a person who cannot sincerely assent. So I understand your answer to mean that you would insincerely assent, and remain in the Church while doing so.

If you don’t think it’s possible for there to be a person who cannot sincerely assent, that’s another matter, but you haven’t said that.
 
Y If they cannot in good conscience accept the teaching then outward assent is a lie. Is that your answer? They should remain in the Church and “fake it”?
It would not be “faking it” for I know my limited intellect…and I know the authority and nature of the Church.

If I were in such a circumstance…it would not be contrary to my conscience.

For I know in my conscience the reality of the nature and authority of the Church.

That reality is part of my very conscience…

I am going to assent for I know Jesus of Nazareth …I know his Church.
 
Thank you. The premise of the question is a person who cannot sincerely assent. So I understand your answer to mean that you would insincerely assent, and remain in the Church while doing so.

.
No …I would sincerely assent.
 
Then you either don’t understand the question or reject the premise of it.
No…I understand it and am giving my answer. If faced with such.

I can assent for I know he in whom I have believed. And I know the reality of the nature of his Church.

(got to run for the moment but will be back later this evening…)
 
No…I understand it and am giving my answer. If faced with such.

I can assent for I know he in whom I have believed. And I know the reality of the nature of his Church.
According to my understanding, “cannot” means cannot. To say that a person who cannot sincerely assent should nevertheless assent can only mean two things:

A person should do what he cannot do.
A person should pretend to do what he cannot do.

If you simply can’t put yourself in the shoes of such a person, I can understand that.
 
Has anyone a good definition of “assent” and “dissent”?

The point is that even the most faithful have phases in which their faith in God is weaker. A person in such a phase obviously will also have reduced faith in the church because the latter builds it credibility on the former. So all catholics will sooner or later be in phases of dissent, if assent is defined as having undoubting faith in the church.
 
I know many people who, even after years of prayerful study, dissent from the teachings of the Catholic Church. I won’t get into which teachings, because that’s not the purpose of this thread. Suffice it to say that they are the “usual suspect”, mostly.

Some of these people have left the Church because of their dissent. Some remain in the Church, albeit with a great deal of inner struggle and turmoil. Some are lay people; some are priests and nuns.

I think most people here at CAF would say that people outside the Catholic Church who dissent from its teachings should stay outside until such time as they can reconcile their conscience to those teachings. That is, one shouldn’t enter the Church in a condition of dissent. But what about those people who are already in the Caholic Church? Should they leave until they can accept all the teachings wholeheartedly? Or should they stay and try to stifle their dissent?
It’s difficult for an “assenting” Catholic to understand that others have difficulty with a Church teaching, especially if that assenting Catholic accepts all teachings without any question. They just don’t question the teachings, so it’s hard for them to understand that someone else would question the teachings.

It’s even more difficult for an “assenting” Catholic to understand that there are others whose conscience makes it difficult to accept some teachings of the Church, because an assenting Catholic will have accepted the teachings without any question. They just don’t question the teachings, and accept them without question, so it’s hard for them to understand that someone else would find a particular teaching immoral.

So we’re talking apples and oranges here. What you want to know can really only be answered by someone who can relate to your questions, not refuse to answer due to lack of understanding. They just can’t relate to the situation because they’re not in it.

I have LOTS of trouble with some teachings too. Some I just don’t get, some that have answers that sound just plain silly and made-up, and some that frankly go against my conscience. Thankfully the teachings that are contrary the most, don’t affect me personally that much - except for the fact that I don’t agree with or understand them. But they still bother me. So in my case, I really don’t have to do anything: If I don’t believe it, I don’t believe it…it’s not something that can be forced. Or faked. How can one “fake” faith, and for whose benefit would this “faking” be? And again, the things I don’t believe don’t affect me personally. It’s much much more difficult when it does affect people, and I can empathize with that.

A friend’s mom used to accept all things of the Church without question, and if you asked her a difficult question, her answer would be, literally, “Oh, I just don’t think about those things”, and then she’ll change the subject. Like, “how can you reconcile the fact that Lutherans were burned at the stake and the Church did nothing to stop it, and even encouraged it?”, and the answer would be, “Oh I just don’t think about those things”. Or, “Doesn’t it bother you that during the Inquistions, people were tortured by Inquisitors into saying things they didn’t mean/weren’t true, and then handed over to secular authorities, who tortured them more and put them to death”. And the response, after an uncomfortable pause was, “well, I just don’t think about those things”. Well…some people do, and being told not to think about those things isn’t a sufficient answer.

To people who have difficulty believing and/or accepting Church teachings, I’d say the first thing to do is try to understand the teaching by actually getting your questions answered, preferably by reading about it in Canon and CCC documents, or talking to a priest. Ignore the nasty people and don’t let their abrasive and uncharitable words lead you away from the Church. If one still can’t come to accept a particular teaching, I’d say to concentrate on what you do believe in, and concetrate on GOD, and don’t let the other things eat you up. You may come to learn them later. Faith is a lifelong process. But unless you truly find a home someplace else, I wouldn’t leave the Church. I would just continue concentrating on God. I’m not saying “oh just don’t worry about those things”. But don’t let them eat you up and destroy what you do love about the Church. You have time to figure it all out…and even then, you may never believe somethings. But you believe in God. Concentrate on Him. And I know some people might find this contrary, but it’s something you might understand: Sometimes, what does religion have anything to do with God?

IMOHO, there is way too much an emphasis on rules and regulations in Catholic teaching, and not enough emphasis on loving God and Mary. If you concentrate on God, you may never accept all the legalism, but you might find the rest more tolerable.

I hope that helps…but most people go through many developmental stages on their journey through life, and that includes their spiritual journey, and it never stops. Good for those who have it all figured out at the moment of Baptism…but the rest of us are doing the best we can, with what we’ve got, in our own lives. I wouldn’t leave the Church unless I found something better. Sometimes I think I have, but I’m not ready to do anything about it yet.
 
According to my understanding, “cannot” means cannot. To say that a person who cannot sincerely assent should nevertheless assent can only mean two things:

A person should do what he cannot do.
A person should pretend to do what he cannot do.

If you simply can’t put yourself in the shoes of such a person, I can understand that.
I know in whom I believe. I know the reality of the nature of the Church and of her Teachings.

If I came across something my intellect could not understand …well I could (and would) still assent.

I am not pretending anything. I can always assent. I am free. I posses myself to give myself. I have bound myself to Christ (or rather he has received me…).

I as a married person --I have chosen my wife …given myself to her in marriage till death. If I see some other girl or “fall in love with another girl” and just feel that I just can not be with my wife anymore…that I must be with that other girl —should I say “I cannot not be with this girl”? “I *cannot *be now with my wife?” …no… for the opposite is actually true. I am a married man. I belong to my wife. I have given myself to her. And no matter what comes …not matter what happens…we are married.

And knowing that-- well I can just cut off and reject such wrong thinking and feeling. By living my vows. Living the assent I have given to my wife.

I Know Whom I Have Believed (1 Timothy 1:12).

By Faith I adhere freely to Christ…I freely assent to what God has revealed. I assent to all that the Church teaches …in the various ways.

I know the reality of what the Catholic Church is. I can deny “my thoughts” and give myself to Christ …holding fast to the Teachings of the Church.

He who who looses himself finds himself…

We walk by Faith not by sight…
 
He who does not renounce himself cannot be my disciple…

~Jesus Christ of Nazareth
 
If your hand causes you to sin…cut it off…

If anyone would come after me he must deny himself…

Whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever looses his life for my sake will find it.
 
He who does not renounce himself cannot be my disciple…

~Jesus Christ of Nazareth
 
Questioning is where we find the answers to our questions. Not asking does not help us, nor does blind acceptance…However…

One has to look at the motives for one’s dissent.

If people are looking for an easy path or something, you have to wonder if they are willing to take up their cross daily and follow. Easy is not Christianity as we find it in the New Testament and certainly not in the early church. Easy is not the Catholic faith (which is synonymous with Christianity) and never has been.

We forget things like …
[bibledrb]Matthew 16:24-27[/bibledrb]
 
I know many people who, even after years of prayerful study, dissent from the teachings of the Catholic Church. I won’t get into which teachings, because that’s not the purpose of this thread. Suffice it to say that they are the “usual suspect”, mostly.

Some of these people have left the Church because of their dissent. Some remain in the Church, albeit with a great deal of inner struggle and turmoil. Some are lay people; some are priests and nuns.

I think most people here at CAF would say that people outside the Catholic Church who dissent from its teachings should stay outside until such time as they can reconcile their conscience to those teachings. That is, one shouldn’t enter the Church in a condition of dissent. But what about those people who are already in the Caholic Church? Should they leave until they can accept all the teachings wholeheartedly? Or should they stay and try to stifle their dissent?
I think they should stay to work out the issues with the guidance of a good priest, and do more research, and pray. It would only rob them of graces to leave. If they stay, they can go to Mass, Adoration, etc, and receive grace to maybe come back to the Church. However, I think it’s Church teaching that they shouldn’t receive Communion until they repent of their dissent (if it’s willful, and not just a confusion or struggle while they want to be obedient and still believe in the Church).
 
Dissenting is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it’s necessary in order to bring about needed change. Throughout the Church’s history people have challenged certain teachings. Often they were right to do so. The Holy Spirit blows were it wills…not only among the hierarchy. Today we celebrate the feast day of St Theresa of Avila. She called herself a “faithful dissenter”. She is a Doctor of the Church.
I disagree that St Teresa or any other Saint was a dissenter… they maybe challenged things in the Church like how religious orders were rich rather than poor or other abuses. They never challenged doctrines, teachings, or the Church’s authority. However, those who dissent commonly challenge those very things. The Saints were very obedient, humble, and believed all the Church teaches.
 
In the Catholic Faith, it is possible to engage in what is called “faithful dissent”. It depends on exactly what sort of teaching is in question, and the manner by which the person dissents. For an article giving a good overview on the concept of assent and dissent (both faithful and unfaithful), please visit:

Sacred Assent, Ordinary Assent, and Faithful Dissent

In terms of the OP’s specific question, more information is really needed concerning what the dissenters should do. There is, after all, a big difference between a faithful dissenter, and being in a state of heresy (according to the definition from Canon Law). Before I can comment further, I would have to know specifics on what sort of teaching is being considered, and what sort of action has been chosen as an expression of dissent.
 
Interesting question.

If I may add to it a bit…do you think if there is someone who has been in the Catholic church for decades and believes all of its teaching…but finds he or she is unable, time and time again after much prayer and talks with the priest, etc…to stop sinning in one way…do you think that person, too, should stay “outside” until they can stop?

The person doesn’t *want *to dissent (this is someone that I know)…but…has struggled for years with one thing that they cannot seem to change. It’s as if maybe part of them, subconsciously, doesn’t want to adhere to the teachings or doesn’t believe re this one thing…
If a person wants to stop sinning, is intending to stop sinning, and is trying to, but keeps on falling back into it (have I interpreted your question correctly?), - they should not leave the Church but keep trying. Repentance is the intention to stop. Whenever they fall back into sin, they need to have a firm resolution to never sin again and they need to be sorry for it. This seems like a case of weakness rather than malice. (if it’s continued malice, that indicates a lack of repentance). This person should probably go to Confession very regularly and speak to their priest.
I’m in this position, in a few respects.

There’s something perverse about it.

To compare and contrast my mother with myself:

Mother: never read the Bible, never gives a thought about religion outside of mass, and so is able to swallow whatever Rome feeds her, and is assured of eternal salvation.

Myself: inquisitive, Bible-reader, religion and ethics are my primary concern. I’ve been told by religious ed instructors that I “think too much.” As a consequence of examining the Church’s teachings, I’m in a greater position to doubt some of them. Therefore, in danger of eternal hellfire according to Catholic teaching.

I sometimes wonder why God gave us brains if the only ones who are supposed to use them are the people in Rome. Why not make the rest of us mindless drones that can follow and obey without question? Why does God hate (some of) us?
well firstly God doesn’t hate anyone. Secondly, the Magisterium doesn’t use the intellect to think up new teachings, but follows Tradition, just like we do. We are all free to think about Church teachings. However, we must think in the right way, that is with the light of faith, and we should surrender our intellect to God… if we look at the Church without faith, it would simply make no sense, we would not understand it, because it is spiritually discerned. If we place our understanding above God… and reject certain things because we don’t understand them, or because they are too mysterious, etc, - that is not thinking or reason, that is pride.

There are examples of great thinkers among the Saints… they examined everything but they did not dissent. I’m trying to say here that thinking itself won’t make a person dissent. Lack of faith and placing their intellect above God, - would. It’s something I’ve struggled with and sometimes still do. If we use our reason with humility, and turn to God for wisdom, - we would not dissent, because we would be led to the Church teachings (since they are public revelation from God).

God bless
 
And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Mark 2:17

Stay. We are all dissenters in some fashion.
 
To fail to assent.

In most of the cases I’m personally aware of, the dissent is private, not publicly announced.
Sorry, bad question, bad answer.
Listen:

  1. *]I dissent on the color of the vestments during Lent.
    *]I dissent on the days of oblidation
    *]I dissent on the Trinity.

    They are not the same.
 
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