Distorted misconception about Mary being elevated to the level of divinity.

[JonNC]

They are not explicitly mentioned but are drawn from the significance that scripture puts on Mary.

I think you bring up a very good point, one that Catholics and noncathlics of good will can focus on a bit. I would say that the level of significance placed on Mary in scripture is not enough to bind believers’ consciences. However, there is enough there to consider the marion beliefs reasonable.
So, this is not nor should it be an article of faith, and believers should be free to hold or not hold to them, without condemnation.
After all, as tgette said:

Is believing in these Marian doctrines required for Salvation? Of course not!

Neither is not believing in them required for salvation.

Jon

 

[Mannyfit75]

Not stupid (that’s uncharitable), just incorrect. Her being “full of grace” is God’s grace, not her own.

Mary’s full of grace comes from God. The reason for her being Immaculate Conceived is God’s action. Not her own. For God, all things are possible.

If you don’t care, why the thread?

Because Non-Catholic Christians say we elevate her to the level of divinity which is a false misunderstanding.

Catholics do not have a corner on Marion beliefs, thus others do concern themselves.

Catholic and Eastern Orthodox beliefs on Mary are similiar.

Exactly. Not stupidity, as you claimed earlier.

It’s stupidity and ignorance.

Would it be too much to ask that maybe, instead of cursing the darkness, Manny, you lit a match? Maybe explain it. Instead of whining about ignorance, you gracefully and with Christian love explain the Catholic view.

Jon

We have explained Marian doctrine here numerous times and even use Scripture to support our beliefs but your Protestant brothers and sister insist its “UNBIBLICAL”

 

[Mannyfit75]

Gloves off? I have a feeling that you are looking for me. I am the one who asserted that the Catholic church raises Mary to the level of divinity. I also said that the Mary of Catholicism is a different Mary than the Mary of Scripture. This is the biggest disagreement I have with the RCC.

Because you refuse to understand it rather respect this belief. From your own writings you all but condemned this belief.

The Catholic Mary is the same as the Biblical Mary PERIOD! END of discussion.

Who are you say it isn’t? Are you Church authority? Are we suppose to believe your fallible intepretation of the Gospel message?

 

[JonNC]

=Mannyfit75;4273688]Mary’s full of grace comes from God. The reason for her being Immaculate Conceived is God’s action. Not her own. For God, all things are possible.

Yes, I said that.

Her being “full of grace” is God’s grace, not her own.

Because Non-Catholic Christians say we elevate her to the level of divinity which is a false misunderstanding.

I agree it is a false understanding, and have already said so, and I’m Non-Catholic.

Catholic and Eastern Orthodox beliefs on Mary are similiar.

So are mine, except for intercession. How does this respond to my saying “Catholics do not have a corner on Marion beliefs, thus others do concern themselves.”

It’s stupidity and ignorance.

This is just a demonstration of arrogance, and a lack of charity.
The comments are as unkind as some of the ones from some protestants that you rightfully complain about.

We have explained Marian doctrine here numerous times and even use Scripture to support our beliefs but your Protestant brothers and sister insist its “UNBIBLICAL”

And you usually explain things with the tone you demonstrated here. It certainly won’t convince anyone, or even encourage the curious to look into it further.
BTW, they are your brothers and sisters, too. Your catechism says so.

Jon

 

[SIA]

Because you refuse to understand it rather respect this belief. From your own writings you all but condemned this belief.

The Catholic Mary is the same as the Biblical Mary PERIOD! END of discussion.

Who are you say it isn’t? Are you Church authority? Are we suppose to believe your fallible intepretation of the Gospel message?

The truth Manny. That is what counts here. You cannot show where the Mary of your church in doctrine and dogma is the same Mary that the Bible describes.

 

[SIA]

They are not explicitly mentioned but are drawn from the significance that scripture puts on Mary.

Well in that case, we can draw upon that same notion and say the same things about many in Scripture, why don’t we do that?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well in that case, we can draw upon that same notion and say the same things about many in Scripture, why don’t we do that?

How so? Can you give us some examples of the ‘many’ to whom you refer and what Scriptural passages you could draw on to say “the same things that Catholics say about Mary?”?

 

[SIA]

How so? Can you give us some examples of the ‘many’ to whom you refer and what Scriptural passages you could draw on to say “the same things that Catholics say about Mary?”?

Enoch, Moses, Abraham. The list goes on and on really.

 

[RobHom]

Do you have any more information related to this topic, other than that website?

Yes…

ntrmin.org/Luthers%20Theology%20of%20Mary.htm

mariology.com/sections/reformers.html

chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_5.htm

socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/luther-calvin-and-other-early.html

epress.anu.edu.au/calvin/pdf/ch25.pdf

catholicapologetics.org/ap080300.htm

ancient-future.net/marynew.html

books.google.com/books?id=CZEPAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=Wesley+on+Virgin+Mary&source=web&ots=QQLf_yxmfs&sig=fk9m3iBxwDIDUSmskZ55Y-yMISU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

These are a little different:

tanbooks.com/doct/true_devotion.htm

kencollins.com/poll-01.htm

Hope these help!

 

[Jesusisgod]

How can Mary be sinless when the Bible clearly says “none are righteous”?

I’m shocked! Are people even **READING THE BIBLE **???

Romans 3:10 as it is written," THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Jesusisgod: Are you familiar with Psalm 14?

Read it, and then tell me --if the ‘all are depraved’ in that psalm are literally ‘all’ people --who are God’s people whom these depraved are eating up and who God defends? Eh?

 

[RobHom]

The truth Manny. That is what counts here. You cannot show where the Mary of your church in doctrine and dogma is the same Mary that the Bible describes.

Do some reading and investigating on your own. Stop being lazy. Maybe what I should do is respond to each and every one of your trite posts with the demand:

The truth SIA. That is what counts here. You cannot disprove where the Mary of our Church in and doctrine and dogma is the same Mary that the Bible describes.

But, I’m not going to do that just yet. I’m going to give you some “homework”…do it.

ancient-future.net/marynew.html

biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute

That’s a beginning…if you need more, let me know.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, no, SIA.

You only did half of what I asked, and the ‘simple’ half at that.

You gave me names. I asked for names and for the Scriptural passages that can be used to make the same claims for those people as are made for Mary.

You just threw some names out. Hey, I can name names from the Bible too, but if I am making a claim (as you did) that I can take Scriptural passages and make them ‘claim’ for these people what Catholics claim for Mary, then I need to back up my assertion with the relevant Scripture.

So please give it a go with the people you named, thank you.

 

[Jesusisgod]

Jesusisgod: Are you familiar with Psalm 14?

Read it, and then tell me --if the ‘all are depraved’ in that psalm are literally ‘all’ people --who are God’s people whom these depraved are eating up and who God defends? Eh?

God’s people does not mean sinless people. If they were sinless, what’s the purpose of Christ’s suffering and redemption for mankind by dying on the cross for our SINS?

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–
**
These people were deemed righteous because of their faith, NOT because they are sinless. Mary is NOT sinless. For one man sinned and therefore ALL sinned.**

Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[RobHom]

How can Mary be sinless when the Bible clearly says “none are righteous”?

Simple…keep reading…the answer is below.

I’m shocked! Are people even **READING THE BIBLE **???

Again, keep going…

Romans 3:10 as it is written," THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

**Do you read the Bible? It seems quite possible that you don’t. Are you one of those people who snags little snippets of scripture out and bandies them around?

Based on the snippet you posted… Romans 3:10… that’s a pretty “inclusive statement”: THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE.**

Now, take a moment and see if you can figure out just when and where you stuck your foot in it.



(Do I need to explain it to you?)

 

[Jesusisgod]

Simple…keep reading…the answer is below.

Again, keep going…

**Do you read the Bible? It seems quite possible that you don’t. Are you one of those people who snags little snippets of scripture out and bandies them around?

Based on the snippet you posted… Romans 3:10… that’s a pretty “inclusive statement”: THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE.**

Now, take a moment and see if you can figure out just when and where you stuck your foot in it.



(Do I need to explain it to you?)

RobHom, you attend Gibberish Classes? Your post makes ZERO sense.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ok, so you say none are righteous?

Why then does the Bible speak of righteous men? Abraham is said to be righteous. Noah likewise. Joseph of Arimathea. . . If there is not a righteous man, no, not one, then why does God say there **are **righteous men? Can you explain that to me?

 

[RobHom]

RobHom, you attend Gibberish Classes? Your post makes ZERO sense.

Ad hominem will get you an “F” quickly. But in the interest of fair play, I will simply suggest that you lack the acumen you attempt to ascribe to… see if you can figure it out. Its really “quite” simple. It requires little more than a basic understanding of “English”.

 

[RobHom]

Ok, so you say none are righteous?

Why then does the Bible speak of righteous men? Abraham is said to be righteous. Noah likewise. Joseph of Arimathea. . . If there is not a righteous man, no, not one, then why does God say there **are **righteous men? Can you explain that to me?

Darn, you gave part of it away!! Besides, was not Christ Himself “righteous”?

Psst…watch for the “doublespeak” …

 

[Jesusisgod]

Ok, so you say none are righteous?

Why then does the Bible speak of righteous men? Abraham is said to be righteous. Noah likewise. Joseph of Arimathea. . . If there is not a righteous man, no, not one, then why does God say there **are **righteous men? Can you explain that to me?

When God says NONE is righteous, He speaks the truth, because ALL men sinned through Adam. When God says a person is righteous, God is crediting that person with righteousness because of his/her faith. NOT because the person is sin free. NOBODY is sinless. Except Jesus, the perfect sacrifice.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

.