Distorted misconception about Mary being elevated to the level of divinity.

[Mannyfit75]

I cannot commend you for the vain attempt to falsely accuse the non-catholics of wrong doing. Because you do not even understand scripture to begin with.

I do understand Scripture my friend. Second, I do not adhere to Bible Alone. I believe the Word of God is preserved not only in Scripture but in the Sacred Tradition. I do not believe I can interpret Scripture, so I entrust God’s Church as the sole interpreter of Scripture and Tradition.

Since Peter condemned using Scripture for private interpretation.

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call
Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—GOD.

Jesus said this because outside from God no one is good. Mary always kept God in her mind. Therefore she is good. She is the Handmaid of the Lord. She also said she is that her Soul proclaim the greatness of the Lord. If you do not call that good then what do you call it then?

IS MARY GOD? OF COURSE NOT. So?..is she good? According to Jesus’ spoken words here, of course not!..She is NOT Good.

Mary who brings us to Jesus is good. If she was not good then she must be evil if she wants to bring us to Jesus. This logic of yours is flawed.

Any Christian who desires another to go to Jesus, is good. Mary in the Catholic Church points us to her son. She is acts as our spiritual mother.

Jesus tells us plainly that ONLY GOD is good…ie sinless. This naturally implies that the rest are NOT good. And this of course includes Mary! Unless the catholics vehemently insist against the grain of scripture to elevate Mary to deity-hood (ie God), there is no other way she can be sinless (ie good).

Um, where in the Bible does it say that good equals sinless? Being good is adhering to God’s commandments and loving him, and avoid sinning.

The Catholic Church has never teached that Mary is the same level as a deity. Any Catholic who did were condemned as a heretic. In fact, two nuns who claimed to be possessed by Mary was execommunicated. Likewise, any Catholic who claims that Mary is god is also a heretic.

Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.

According to fallible she is level to divinity. According to the Catholic Church, she is not. She only serves as the Mother of the Church, and we are her spiritual children.

And this is no fault of the non-catholics, neither is it a mis-conception. Its in pure fact an erroneos open admission by the catholics.

We Catholics are not at fault there. Protestants who refuse to understands are the problem.

We have explain our position on this matter.

**John 2: 3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.” 4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.” **

The above is an outright and very clear distinction between the will of God and the will of man (in this case, Mary). Mary is not sinless, neither is she above Jesus. INsisting that she is the mother of God is BLASPHEMY.

You twist Scripture as if it were your personal book. The passage in John shows one thing. The Bride and Groom wedding feast ran out of wine. Mary brought the attention to her Son. Jesus said, it was not time for him to go by saying, that his hour has not come. However, Jesus acknowledge the problem and turns water to wine.

Mary intercede.

Mary is sinless. She is not above Jesus. She is her humble servant. Mary is the Mother of God dates back to 432 AD in the Council of Ephesus to battle the heresy of Nestorianism, a heresy that deny the title, Mother of God.

I think the only person who denies the title Mother of God is the only one here who is blasphemous and a heretic according to the Council’s declaration. The Council of Ephesus does not deal specificially with Mary but Jesus.

Jesus is both God and Man. He is the Second Person of the Trinity. Jesus also have a mother. His mother’s name is Mary. Jesus is God. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God, the Son.

She is not the Mother of God, the Father or the Holy Spirit. She is Mother of God, the Son, flesh incarnate.

Mary is the mother of the flesh that God used as His temple while He was on earth. Mary is NOT the mother of God because God is a SPIRIT, and we know by scripture that the mortal cannot give birth to the immortal.

Catholics should learn to READ the bible for themselves before its too late.

.

Mary is the Mother of God period. Jesus is God. Jesus had a BODY, A SOUL.

 

[JonNC]

I

IS MARY GOD? OF COURSE NOT. So?..is she good? According to Jesus’ spoken words here, of course not!..She is NOT Good.

Jesus tells us plainly that ONLY GOD is good…ie sinless. This naturally implies that the rest are NOT good. And this of course includes Mary! Unless the catholics vehemently insist against the grain of scripture to elevate Mary to deity-hood (ie God), there is no other way she can be sinless (ie good).

Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.

I would say that Mary was not sinless by her own doing. She was sinless by God’s doing. An important distinction, and not an elevation of her to divine.

And this is no fault of the non-catholics, neither is it a mis-conception. Its in pure fact an erroneos open admission by the catholics.

And nearly everyone of the early reformers?

Insisting that she is the mother of God is BLASPHEMY

.
Thanks for heeding my request that we remain charitable.
The title of Theotokos has been properly used by Catholics, Orthodox and many protestants and Anglicans for centuries. The vast majority of Christians down the ages have referred to her, I believe rightfully, as “God-bearer”, “mother of God”.

Mary is the mother of the flesh that God used as His temple while He was on earth. Mary is NOT the mother of God because God is a SPIRIT, and we know by scripture that the mortal cannot give birth to the immortal.

This statement hints at a denial of the truth that Christ was fully God and fully man at the time of His conception. Again, a belief of the vast majority of Christians (including but not limited to Catholics) through the ages.

Again, I do not claim that one must believe the Marion doctrines as an article of faith. Nor do I believe that those who do should be condemned.

Catholics should learn to READ the bible for themselves before its too late.

Too late for what? Are you claiming to know who will or will not be saved?

Jon

 

[mrs_abbott]

Yes…

ntrmin.org/Luthers%20Theology%20of%20Mary.htm

mariology.com/sections/reformers.html

chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_5.htm

socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/luther-calvin-and-other-early.html

epress.anu.edu.au/calvin/pdf/ch25.pdf

catholicapologetics.org/ap080300.htm

ancient-future.net/marynew.html

books.google.com/books?id=CZEPAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=Wesley+on+Virgin+Mary&source=web&ots=QQLf_yxmfs&sig=fk9m3iBxwDIDUSmskZ55Y-yMISU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

These are a little different:

tanbooks.com/doct/true_devotion.htm

kencollins.com/poll-01.htm

Hope these help!

Thank you so much!

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—GOD.

And I said…“Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.”

Mannyfit replied “According to fallible she is level to divinity. According to the Catholic Church, she is not. She only serves as the Mother of the Church, and we are her spiritual children.”

What kind of a nonsensical answer is this?

Frankly, do you fellas even READ what you are typing? Or are you just typing whatever your mind strays you into?

 

[JonNC]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—GOD.

And I said…“Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.”

Mannyfit replied “According to fallible she is level to divinity. According to the Catholic Church, she is not. She only serves as the Mother of the Church, and we are her spiritual children.”

What kind of a nonsensical answer is this?

Frankly, do you fellas even READ what you are typing? Or are you just typing whatever your mind strays you into?

This is your 42nd post, and already I find your posts uncharitable and unkind, and I’m not Catholic. But your rhetoric could almost convince me to become one.

What I think Manny was saying is that those who improperly understand the teaching claim “Mother of God” elevates Mary to divine status. The Catholic Church, on the other hand doesn’t teach that.

Tone down the rhetoric and you might find the conversations enjoyable.

Jon

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Jon, you haven’t been following.

Almost every catholic here believes mary to be sinless. The Bible clearlys says nobody is sinless or good except GOD.

This rhetoric as you claim is obviously not even going through. Its jammed right at the ear.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

 

[SIA]

Jon, you haven’t been following.

Almost every catholic here believes mary to be sinless. The Bible clearlys says nobody is sinless or good except GOD.

This rhetoric as you claim is obviously not even going through. Its jammed right at the ear.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

That’s right. When Scripture speaks clearly, it is easy to see the truth. Why people want to add to that or change it or mold and shape it some other way is unfathomable to me.

 

[ralphinal]

Jon, you haven’t been following.

Almost every catholic here believes mary to be sinless. The Bible clearlys says nobody is sinless or good except GOD.

This rhetoric as you claim is obviously not even going through. Its jammed right at the ear.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

So what sin has a downs syndrome infant committed?

 

[M0nkey]

I think many on this thread have been thoroughly explicative on this doctrine, they simply refuse to listen because of blindness. At this point, you must decrease so he may increase. They’ve found justification in ‘explaining away’ their point of view.

 

[tmac1956]

The classic “gang up on the Protestant” is underway now I see.

:crying:

 

[JonNC]

Jon, you haven’t been following.

Almost every catholic here believes mary to be sinless. The Bible clearlys says nobody is sinless or good except GOD.

This rhetoric as you claim is obviously not even going through. Its jammed right at the ear.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

You propose to change the minds of people whose Church has stated these doctrines for centuries, and by doing it with rhetoric.
Of course it stops at the ears!

I don’t believe almost every Catholic here believes the BVM was sinless. I believe every Catholic here believes she was sinless!
I believe she was sinless, not because she could or would be by her own doing, but rather because she was filled with God grace.

What I don’t do is condemn those who don’t believe it for 2 reasons:

1. it in no way relates to our salvation. Only her Son is responsoble for that. Belief in it is, to me, not an article of faith.
2. scripture is not explicit on the subject.

Therefore, the conscience of a Christian should not be bound to believe or dis-believe it. It is adiaphoron. That’s not to discount or dismiss its importance to Catholics, an importance that should be respected.

Jon

 

[RobHom]

I cannot commend you for the vain attempt to falsely accuse the non-catholics of wrong doing. Because you do not even understand scripture to begin with.Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—GOD.IS MARY GOD? OF COURSE NOT. So?..is she good? According to Jesus’ spoken words here, of course not!..She is NOT Good.Jesus tells us plainly that ONLY GOD is good…ie sinless. This naturally implies that the rest are NOT good. And this of course includes Mary! Unless the catholics vehemently insist against the grain of scripture to elevate Mary to deity-hood (ie God), there is no other way she can be sinless (ie good).Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.And this is no fault of the non-catholics, neither is it a mis-conception. Its in pure fact an erroneos open admission by the catholics.John 2: 3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.” 4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.” The above is an outright and very clear distinction between the will of God and the will of man (in this case, Mary). Mary is not sinless, neither is she above Jesus. INsisting that she is the mother of God is BLASPHEMY.Mary is the mother of the flesh that God used as His temple while He was on earth. Mary is NOT the mother of God because God is a SPIRIT, and we know by scripture that the mortal cannot give birth to the immortal.

Wow, that was a long-winded dissertation based on your opinion…too bad you are sadly misinformed.

Catholics should learn to READ the bible for themselves before its too late…

I am more than just inclined to suggest that you remove the log from your own eye, and stop arrogantly and pridefully placing yourself in a superior position to the Early Church Fathers.

Far smarter men than you or eye made the declaration of Mary’s sinlessness. Centuries ago these declarations were made. You are not the first to say what you have, and I truly doubt you will be the last… but for those of us that know the “truth” your voice is much like the coyote’s howl in the wild. You have vainly attempted to “box” God up in your man-made constraints, and shape Him to your desires… In other words, you have attempted vainly to “limit” God… You do not have the mind of God, you do not know what He wanted, nor do you know what He wants, any more than a raccoon.

It is obvious that you have a specific agenda. Please note that your agenda is a failure. It and your theology were never accepted and will never be accepted.

That you do not believe as we believe…is to your detriment, not ours. You deny Christ as you disobey and ignore His very words.
Read YOUR Bible and see if you can figure that one out. If you do, it will no doubt be an “epiphany” for you. I might suggest further that you erase the notion of the “solas” from your conscious mind and learn that there is more to God than what is contained with the Bible…which, whether you realize it or not, is a book whose Canon was established by the Catholic Church, and although your kind has rudely taken liberties to dismantle and change it…it has never actually been changed.

Sorry sport, no sale.

 

[RobHom]

Now, if you really want to stop playing word games and put things in their proper context take a really close look at Roman 3:10

From here: drbo.org/chapter/52003.htm Now, please bear in mind that this is the Douay-Rheims Bible, and it is a direct translation from the Latin Vulgate, which was translated from the original texts…long before

*10 As it is written: There is not any man just. *

Now what is truly significant is that you are 1. using a bible that is not true to the original texts, and 2. you are attempting to “snippetize” scriptures to prove an invalid point. That is rather “disingenuous” at best. Shame on you for trying to twist and bend the Word of God to fit YOUR desires!!

Here is a bit more of Romans 3:

6 (I speak according to man.) God forbid: otherwise how shall God judge this world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie, unto his glory, why am I also yet judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just. 9 What then? Do we excel them? No, not so. For we have charged both Jews, and Greeks, that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: There is not any man just.

This little “tidbit” explains 3:10, and as you can see, it agrees with you NOT!

10 “There is not any man just”… viz. By virtue either of the law of nature, or of the law of Moses; but only by faith and grace.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have dealt deceitfully. The venom of asps is under their lips. 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet swift to shed blood

Your “false assertion” is so far out of context…and invalid.

Take a moment and consider the actual context of the chapter… and ask yourself this: Despite the errors of context you made to begin with…was Paul even talking about “women” in this chapter or are you just trying to cram everything into a little box?

Might I suggest that you set aside that heretical bible that you are trying to quote from and get your hands on a real Bible?
Here is a link for you its a freebie on me: drbo.org/intro.htm

It would do you well to read the “Introduction” and then click on “Home” to access the Bible itself.

PEACE!

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Jeremiah 8:11 They have treated superficially the brokenness of My dear people, claiming: Peace, peace, when there is no peace.

Your peace has nothing to do with Christ.

.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

PEACE!

Jeremiah 8:11 They have treated superficially the brokenness of My dear people, claiming: Peace, peace, when there is no peace.

Your peace has nothing to do with Christ.

.

 

[tmac1956]

QUOTE=Truthfaithlove;4293372]Jeremiah 8:11 They have treated superficially the brokenness of My dear people, claiming: Peace, peace, when there is no peace.

Your peace has nothing to do with Christ.

.

Really – please stop taking scripture out of context. I believe it was Martin Luther who that Scripture has a wax nose. You can twist it any way you want. You keep insinuating that, because those who do not agree with your position are just refusing to hear the truth, then you proceed to grab a snippet of Scripture (out of context) and apply it to some ludicrous point – as if it were a proof text.

We will get nowhere with these intellectually dishonest tactics. Anyone can do what you are doing. Example: I can state that you do not agree with X position simply because you don’t want to hear the truth. Then, I can grab one of a hundred verses to try and reinforce my position (usually out of context)…

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Then, you find another verse (out of context) and fire back. Round and round we go…Yeee Hawww!!

People, I hate to say it, but some of you are chasing your tails here.

Just my thoughts.

 

[GailMac]

Dear TFL - Can’t get around the Marian theology? how about this definition. Since your religion requires you to blaspheme God’s Mother, what next?

blaspheme
6 dictionary results for: blaspheme
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
blas·pheme /blæsˈfim, ˈblæsfim/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blas-feem, blas-feem] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -phemed, -phem·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1. to speak impiously or irreverently of (God or sacred things).
2. to speak evil of; slander; abuse.
–verb (used without object) 3. to speak irreverently of God or sacred things; utter impieties. dictionary.reference.com/browse/blaspheme

Now, God’s got a Mother and she is Holy. How long do you think He should remain unangry with you? For treating His Mother with disrepect?

Peace,

Gail

---

[Origin: 1300–50; ME (< AF) < LL blasphémāre < Gk blasphémeǐn to speak profanely, deriv. of blásphémos blasphemous]

—Related forms
blas·phem·er /blæsˈfimər, ˈblæsfi-, -fə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blas-fee-mer, blas-fee-, -fuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, noun

—Synonyms 1. See curse.

P.S. How Mortal a sin does your religion say this is? Or you could quit your problem and believe that what God said about His Mother through His Church is true…or would you prefer the consequences of your problems with the Marian theology we have…your choice.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Amirrordimly - You state:“I’m perfectly happy with this stance. As I don’t believe that the various Marian doctrines are critical matters of salvation I sincerely wish that we could simply let those be matters of conscience and accept each other of brothers and sisters even though we disagree in this area. Unfortunately, it seems that unity would never be acceptable to the Catholic Church if it meant leaving things like Mary’s Assumption and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary as matter of conscience.” regarding rejection of our Marian doctrines. Perhaps this prayer might help your ills heal…Lord, I do believe; heal my unbelief. I recommend you sit down with a book of Marian stuff and read throug it. Every time you stumble back into your old way of thinking repeat prayer. Perhaps given the time by you that He needs, you’ll heal and be able to bring fitting worship of Him to His house in your heart, mind and body.

Peace,

Gail