Distribution of Wealth

[christcnection1]

Do you think all people were better off under the socialist USSR, socialist Germany, Cuba, China? The only way those countries survived as long as they did was by finding those people who were un willing or un able to work off to where they will never return. I assume you are not advocating that for America?

I’m glad you’re assuming that. As a general rule, the people were not better off under those systems, especially if you were a Christian.

No, I’m not advocating for that America at all. And if you read most of my posts, that would be pretty obvious.

 

[thomfra]

Good, I like cake.
Would you care to enlighten me with your superior knowledge and wisdom or merely declare me ignorant without explaining why?

To be honest with you Caesar517, there are limits to how much time I am willing to spend explaining the real world to 19 year old video game enthusiasts. It just not an effective use of time.

In declaring you ignorant, I hoped you might actually think next time before you type these outlandish, paraphrased, libretarian statements (which are clearly not developed with any independant thinking on your part).

 

[buffalo]

Do you think all people were better off under the socialist USSR, socialist Germany, Cuba, China? The only way those countries survived as long as they did was by finding those people who were un willing or un able to work off to where they will never return. I assume you are not advocating that for America?

Yeah, I kinda of like the idea of 28 rubles per month and a bottle of vodka.

 

[steve975]

Many fail to distinguish between generosity (which is a function of free will) and mandated redistribution (which is not). They see them as one and the same, or they simply disregard generosity (and the free will to give) entirely. They also have a tendency to view government as legitimizing the act of theft so that it is no longer theft. They rationalize that as long as redistribution is orchestrated by / filtered through government, then it’s not theft, somehow rationalizing government to be some sort of entity which cleanses an act of its sinfulness or justifies it. Wrong.

As a friend of mine so eloquently puts it,

Christ commands us to give of our wealth. He does not command us to give of our neighbors’ wealth.

Income / wealth redistribution amounts to giving of our neighbors’ wealth - otherwise known as theft. Our neighbors’ wealth is not ours to give.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Please show me Church documents that say that reasonable use of tax payer money is theft.

I just did.
it’s called the OT.
I am not a member of the Roman church so thats the best you’ll get.

 

[christcnection1]

Many fail to distinguish between generosity (which is a function of free will) and mandated redistribution (which is not). They see them as one and the same, or they simply disregard generosity (and the free will to give) entirely. They also have a tendency to view government as legitimizing the act of theft so that it is no longer theft. They rationalize that as long as redistribution is orchestrated by / filtered through government, then it’s not theft, somehow rationalizing government to be some sort of entity which cleanses an act of its sinfulness or justifies it. Wrong.

As a friend of mine so eloquently puts it,

Christ commands us to give of our wealth. He does not command us to give of our neighbors’ wealth.

Income / wealth redistribution amounts to giving of our neighbors’ wealth - otherwise known as theft. Our neighbors’ wealth is not ours to give.

You share the opinion of some others on this thread. I would like to know what official Church documents tell us that government use of tax-payer money to help society as a whole (which was printed by the government and is not backed by gold or anything) is “theft.” I have yet to receive an answer to this.

You are right that God does not command people to give their neighbor’s wealth. That said, no where does Jesus forbid it, as far as I know. In fact, once the money is in the State’s hands, isn’t it up to Caesar do what he wants with it? (Caesar is the collection of individuals helping to run the government.)

I agree that it’s not charity. But no one here was making that argument, as far as I see.

As you likely believe, all money is God’s anyhow. When we spend it on anything other than for use to further His kingdom, does God consider that theft? Somehow I believe that God would rather see money funneled through a government to help impoverished nations, undereducated citizens, or a poor child undergoing leukemia treatment, than the way many individuals uses their extra funds. This helps us both in the short and long run.

I guess that’s a different question/issue; I just don’t necessarily consider it “theft.” And the reality is, if Christians really stepped to the plate in generosity, the government probably would have little need to step in. But we are so far, far from that. Additionally, there are many Christian government employees using their time and talents to help serve those in need. It’s not like government is lacking laborers from the Body of Christ.

 

[christcnection1]

I just did.
it’s called the OT.
I am not a member of the Roman church so thats the best you’ll get.

Thanks for your thoughts. Unfortunately, if that’s the best you’ll get, it’s unlikely that you’ll even convince most of our brethren.

Indeed, there are many issues that Christians today would disagree with based on an OT perspective. That topic would make an interesting new thread.

 

[jc-servant]

.
Think about it. Does the single person receive and education?, Drive on roads designed by engineers? Receive medical care from educated Doctors, and Nurses? etc., etc. So the benefits of an educated populous did benefit him, and everyone else, regardless of how many brothers and sisters the child has.

I did not say they received no benefit. I said that everyone did not receive the same benefit which means that some “wealth” was redistributed. My point was that making a blanket statement that redistributing wealth was immoral, full stop was a problem. I personally don’t have a problem with paying taxes to shoulder my part of the burden for keeping a free society functioning.

 

[iamrefreshed]

To be honest with you Caesar517, there are limits to how much time I am willing to spend explaining the real world to 19 year old video game enthusiasts. It just not an effective use of time.

In declaring you ignorant, I hoped you might actually think next time before you type these outlandish, paraphrased, libretarian statements (which are clearly not developed with any independant thinking on your part).

Chicken.

I believe the 19 year old showed you up.

 

[jc-servant]

Many fail to distinguish between generosity (which is a function of free will) and mandated redistribution (which is not). They see them as one and the same, or they simply disregard generosity (and the free will to give) entirely. They also have a tendency to view government as legitimizing the act of theft so that it is no longer theft. They rationalize that as long as redistribution is orchestrated by / filtered through government, then it’s not theft, somehow rationalizing government to be some sort of entity which cleanses an act of its sinfulness or justifies it. Wrong.

As a friend of mine so eloquently puts it,

Christ commands us to give of our wealth. He does not command us to give of our neighbors’ wealth.

Income / wealth redistribution amounts to giving of our neighbors’ wealth - otherwise known as theft. Our neighbors’ wealth is not ours to give.

Every single person who works in this country knows that taxes will be taken from their earnings and redistributed through the local, state or federal government in a manner that may benefit others more than it benefits them. It is not “theft” for the government to collect taxes since we agree to pay taxes as part of our duties that arise from being members of this society. It is not a theft of my tax money when the fire department saves your house and I don’t happen to ever have a fire at my house. It is something that I agree to as a cost of living in a civilized society where having a fire department is part of the common good.

 

[jc-servant]

With the military, roads, police, fire, courts, etc. we all bennefit and have access to the services rendered. Welfare is different in that the people who pay by default do not bennefit.

Sorry but that is not true about working people not reaping any benefits from welfare. Many pundits like to talk about welfare as if the same group of people just sit on it and freeload for their entire life. Welfare reform passed back in the 90s placing a cap on the number of years that a family can draw on that type of government assistance usually thought of as “welfare.” You can check the government sites and see that benefits are capped. The vast majority of people who draw welfare at any given time were working taxpayers before they drew and they do become working taxpayers again. They use the benefits as intended, as a temporary safety net to help them get back onto their feet.

I used to work in the legal dept. of a state agency that administered those benefits, so I’m not making this up. We saw the majority of people who had a medical situation or a loss of job or something of that nature that caused them to need temporary help from the government. They were on and off the roles in less than the 5 year max. For people who have earned a decent wage in the past, they find that the amount of money received from welfare benefits does not support a good lifestyle. They also are ashamed at being on welfare.

We had a much smaller percentage of people that we called “the hardcore 20%” who simply were not going to be productive citizens. Those are the people who get most of the attention when people want to criticize using tax dollars in this manner. It simply is not fair to tar everyone with the same brush when the majority of people are hardworking folks like those who have lost jobs in the auto and other industries. Those people would much rather be working for $20/hour or whatever they used to make instead of barely surviving on welfare. They are not freeloaders or lazy or stupid.

Bad circumstances can happen to any one of us at some point in our lives. Many of us are lucky enough to have sufficient savings or the support of an extended family to see us through hard times and others are not.

 

[christcnection1]

Chicken.

I believe the 19 year old showed you up.

Perhaps your criticism or point could be filled with greater charity.

This goes for all of us. We all essentially want the same things. We just have differing perspectives on how to get there.

When we throw mud, we lose ground. In my experience, this is usually counterproductive in finding solutions.

God Bless

 

[Caesar517]

To be honest with you Caesar517, there are limits to how much time I am willing to spend explaining the real world to 19 year old video game enthusiasts. It just not an effective use of time.

In declaring you ignorant, I hoped you might actually think next time before you type these outlandish, paraphrased, libretarian statements (which are clearly not developed with any independant thinking on your part).

Either back up your statements or don’t make them.

There’s no need to try to paint my personal life in such a negative light. You make me sound like a loser. I enjoy video games when I’m not working on calculus III, digital design, teaching my brothers about ancient governments, or helping out with the RCIA class.

Before you declare my posts to be “outlandish, paraphrased, libertarian, statements”, It might be wise to consider that I’m describing conservative values which roughly half of Americans hold to some extent.

Go on, use your time more effectively elsewhere.

 

[elvisman]

I am not familiar with any authoritative Church documents that say taxing individuals to help benefit the country is theft. Any use of money after tax can be deemed as “theft” if that’s the way you define it.

This could include supporting a military, a prison system, social workers, health care, etc. If one does not support how any of these systems are run and would not be willing to give the government their money freely, you could then say it’s “theft.”

Of course, those who use currency have decided to buy into a system. It’s not like they are bartering. The money was printed by the government. It’s not even backed by gold anymore.

I’m sorry, I have never, ever heard a homily or read a Church document saying that reasonable use of tax payer money was theft.

There is something I do agree with you on. That is, voluntary distribution of wealth is charity. If it’s forced, it’s not charity. However, I do believe that some strict Socialists hold their views because they love their neighbor. I just think this system is extreme and misguided.

Did you even read my post?
Where did I ever claim that there was an “authoritative Church document” indicating that taxing individuals to help benefit the country is theft??

You go on to claim that you “have never, ever heard” a homily or read a Church document saying that reasonable use of tax payer money was theft. I never claimed that I had heard one either. A very good argument could be made as to whether this is a “reasonable” use of taxpayer money.

Go back and read my post, then come back with a relevant response.

 

[Feste_1242]

I’m sorry, I have never, ever heard a homily or read a Church document saying that reasonable use of tax payer money was theft.

Don’t get caught up in the idea that just because the Church doesn’t say it’s true means that it isn’t. And the problem is that it’s not reasonable. I don’t think anyone here is saying the government shouldn’t collect taxes, but some of us think the government is out of line with *certain *taxes.

The free loaders would move to Canada???

Hahaha

To be honest with you Caesar517, there are limits to how much time I am willing to spend explaining the real world to 19 year old video game enthusiasts. It just not an effective use of time.

In declaring you ignorant, I hoped you might actually think next time before you type these outlandish, paraphrased, libretarian statements (which are clearly not developed with any independant thinking on your part).

My good sir, why have you entered a discussion if you are unwilling to back up your statements, and you know, discuss?

Christ commands us to give of our wealth. He does not command us to give of our neighbors’ wealth.

:yup: Very well put.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Perhaps your criticism or point could be filled with greater charity.

This goes for all of us. We all essentially want the same things. We just have differing perspectives on how to get there.

When we throw mud, we lose ground. In my experience, this is usually counterproductive in finding solutions.

God Bless

Try laughing a little. It’ll help those frown marks in your forehead!

 

[steve975]

You share the opinion of some others on this thread. I would like to know what official Church documents tell us that government use of tax-payer money to help society as a whole (which was printed by the government and is not backed by gold or anything) is “theft.” I have yet to receive an answer to this.

There’s no Church document I’m aware of that specifies that I can’t take $100 out of my friend’s wallet and give it to a homeless person. Regardless, I believe a person with a well-informed conscience would still realize this is obviously theft. My decision to contribute an additional $100 of my own money also would not negate the theft of my friend’s money.

You are right that God does not command people to give their neighbor’s wealth. That said, no where does Jesus forbid it, as far as I know. In fact, once the money is in the State’s hands, isn’t it up to Caesar do what he wants with it? (Caesar is the collection of individuals helping to run the government.)

It is forbidden as per the “You Shall Not Steal” Commandment. If it weren’t, as I mentioned above, I can rightfully take $100 out of my friend’s wallet and give it to a needy person. I’m not arguing that the individual taxpayer is necessarily and directly responsible for what “Caesar” does with the money once it is in his hands, just as my friend is not responsible for what I do with his money that I take from his wallet.

As you likely believe, all money is God’s anyhow. When we spend it on anything other than for use to further His kingdom, does God consider that theft? Somehow I believe that God would rather see money funneled through a government to help impoverished nations, undereducated citizens, or a poor child undergoing leukemia treatment, than the way many individuals uses their extra funds. This helps us both in the short and long run.

But this does not justify stealing from those who misuse their money. I believe (as does the Church) that the means and the ends must both be moral. So for example, I don’t believe I would be morally justified in stealing a drug addict’s money to prevent him from buying more drugs. I also don’t believe I would be justified in stealing someone’s money because it would be better put to use somewhere else.

I guess that’s a different question/issue; I just don’t necessarily consider it “theft.” And the reality is, if Christians really stepped to the plate in generosity, the government probably would have little need to step in. But we are so far, far from that. Additionally, there are many Christian government employees using their time and talents to help serve those in need. It’s not like government is lacking laborers from the Body of Christ.

I look at it the other way: if the government would stop overstepping its bounds with forced charity, Christians would step up to the plate. Unfortunately, the government will never relinquish its intervention because our officials have ulterior and misguided motives. The Church is often ridiculed for its wealth yet it is the most charitable organization in the world. Remember, Jesus tells us, *“the poor you will always have with you.” * (Matthew 26:11 and Deuteronomy 15:11) This is a result of human sin which government force will certainly not correct.

Every single person who works in this country knows that taxes will be taken from their earnings and redistributed through the local, state or federal government in a manner that may benefit others more than it benefits them. It is not “theft” for the government to collect taxes since we agree to pay taxes as part of our duties that arise from being members of this society. It is not a theft of my tax money when the fire department saves your house and I don’t happen to ever have a fire at my house. It is something that I agree to as a cost of living in a civilized society where having a fire department is part of the common good.

I don’t recall ever stating that all taxes are wrong. But the fact that we all know that taxes will be taken does not therefore justify all taxes. Every single person who works in a communist country knows that taxes will be taken from his earnings and redistributed, yet that in no way justifies the act. Nor does it justify it for those under totalitarian regimes who know taxes will be taken. For one, we do not know exactly how much will be taken and for what purposes these taxes will be used. Tax rates are subject to change based on government policies. Taxes designated for certain uses are often embezzled and used for other purposes which were not originally intended (like Social Security). Further, there are intrinsic evils for which our tax dollars can be used, such as abortion. The existence of government in this process does not negate the sinfulness of the action.

For the record, I do hope your house doesn’t catch on fire.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I am of the opinion that forced redistrubution of wealth is immoral.

How does someone get from “a good, hard working poor person” to "a person who ‘deserves’ and ‘has a right to’ the fruit of someone else’s labor?

Doesn’t your boss get the fruit of some elses (your) labor? i.e. their employees
Doesn’t the stock holder get the fruit of some elses labor? i.e. the employees of the company?

It seems that the question is – how do we ensure that the workers get a fair share of the profit they help to create. That they are paid a fair wage for the work they do. If the history of employers shows anything it is that most will take advantage of any and everyone they can to make bigger and bigger profits for themselves. If they didn’t we wouldnt have the labor laws and child labor laws that we do. Here is an exchange between an 8 year old textile mill worker and a Judge from 1911
Judge: Helen what time do you go to work?
Helen: Half after 6 evenins
Judge: When do you come home from the mill?
Helen: Half after 6 mornins
Judge: How far do you live from the mill?
Helen: I dont know. I guess mostly takes an hour to git there
Judge: And the inspector tell me its across lonely fields exposed to storms that sweep down the valley. Whats you pay Helen?
Helen: I git 3 cents an hour, sir.
Judge: If my arithmetic is good that is almost 36 cents for a nights work. Well now, we do indeed find the flesh and blood of little children coined into money.

It seems immoral to me to pay executives 100’s of millions of dollars in salary, bonuses and stock options while not paying a wage to the worker on the floor that will support a family.

It seems immoral to me to ship jobs to other countries where child labor may be employed, where workers are at times locked in their factories, where the environmental standards are lax and where at times prison labor may be employed

Our laws and tax policy should address issues like that.

 

[MarkInOregon]

a fair minimum wage and zero taxes on incomes under $x (like $15k) The disgrace is we heavily tax the poor typically 40%. (8% sales tax, 15.3% SS & Medicare, hidden taxes, + fees ) This of course only helps poor workers. Issues as social health care are also important.

In 2007 a family of 4 that does not itemize deductions could earn up to $24,300 without paying federal income tax. If their 2 dependends qualified for the child tax credit then they could earn roughly another $18,500 as the federal income tax on that income would largly be offset by the child tax credit. (so thats a total of $42,800 that could be earned before the federal income tax would kick in for this family.

A single person in 2007, who doesnt itemize, could make $8,750 before paying federal income tax.

The social security taxes will come back to them when they retire–or if they are disabled. Its an insurance policy.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Do institutions have moral duties? The individuals that make them up certainly do, but I tend to think the institution collectively does not.

How do you define institution? A corporation for example is an artificial being, invisible, intangible and existing only in contemplation of law. Being the mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the charter of its creation confers upon it…" Cheif Justice John Marshal

It is an artificial person. It really has the rights and responsibilities we decide to give it. We can decide to give corporation moral duties in return for granting them the charter and the rights they want–like limited liability protection for their shareholders. Corporations enjoy many benefits–those benefits should not come without moral responsibility.