Distribution of Wealth

[ribozyme]

This country is going right off a cliff, and socialism is to blame. Thousands of people here in Ontario are losing their extremely bloated and overpaid jobs every month. 850 lost their jobs yesterday as two auto parts plants closed down. And still the unions shriek that they will give no concessions and the managment can just Ante Up, even as management is in fact Closing Down.

So feel free to argue among yourselves from here on out.

Out of curiosity, do those people with "extremely bloated and overpaid jobs " receive a lower income and less benefits than yourself? Well, if so, I am glad you can convey a sense of superiority that you deserve your income while they do not.

 

[royal_archer]

Isn’t Our government controlled by Big Money elitists at the Executive level, until the 2008 election, to “Change” that?

The election only changed which big money elitist control the government.

And Big Government nowadays, Properly Oriented to the Public Good, is essential for Big modern problems, like regulating to prevent excesses (Big Financials), financially back Reasearch and Funding of advanced Energy, Transportation, Technology, etc, Etc. Ever thought how failing Our High tech Transportation, Industries are? We had to buy Overseas, now more and more. The newest Amtrack Enginers are high tech Swedish, our next Air Force Tanker is likelly an Airbus Industry plane, as is the next Medium Range Coast Guard search aircraft.

Actually the Air Force Tanker is the one potential good thing that would come out of an Obama presidency. McCain has some personal problem with Boeing and was trying to force to Air Force to buy the foriegn aircraft instead. Having that contract as well as several other defense contracts stay in the US would do great things for the economy. These military contracts also normally push the envelope of technology that is then spun off into the civilian sector.

 

[Sailka]

Our government run schools aren’t all that bad so we felt it would be better to save up and use the money for college. My grand father sent my dad to college and my dad sent me, In a few years it will be my turn to pay them back by sending my kids.

Our Local and State school boards governed Primary Schools are not ranked high internationally, to understate the Problem. Have you heard that the USA is headed for unable to Read Steady increase, Highest reading capable % of Americans having been 1880’s, When Reading was Known essential, for anything in life?

We’ve been poor but honest since we arrived in the USA. Thanks for Premium Catholic Secondary and Primary education we could not afford, but were allowed for By Catholic Education. And College Loans were low Cost and easily Repayable, as I did for my traditional Jesuit College education. All before Billion Dollar Big Money churning in Deregulated Finance killed same, recently.
Glasd your Ancestors had the Money. Most Don’t, especially now.

 

[royal_archer]

Glasd your Ancestors had the Money. Most Don’t, especially now.

Actually they didn’t, My great grand father arrived at Ellis Island with pcket change, My grand father worked all of his life in a steel mill and drove a cab at night to put my dad through school. My mom had to work to send my sister and I through school. We haven’t had a lot of money but we did what it took to get by.

 

[Sailka]

The election only changed which big money elitist control the government.

Actually the Air Force Tanker is the one potential good thing that would come out of an Obama presidency. McCain has some personal problem with Boeing and was trying to force to Air Force to buy the foriegn aircraft instead. Having that contract as well as several other defense contracts stay in the US would do great things for the economy. These military contracts also normally push the envelope of technology that is then spun off into the civilian sector.

Realize that Reagan began the Buying of French Coast Guard Chopper, Daussult Search jets, etc?

Know that very little is left of our Airliner and Military Aircraft Industries, Once Premier in the world? Only the Boeing Dreamliner and J-35 multipurpose Fighter are left. Airliner manufacturing has been left to Airbus Industries European Consortium, Canadian and Brazilian small liner manufacturers. China And Russia, the Booming new economic and quickly becoming technological leaders are developing their own.

Heard the of the (Communist) Chinese Hydrogen powered developmental cars brandished at the recent Olympics? Who developed, sells the Prius?

Realize that the Current Administration has focused Our research on Extremely little return, jobwise or technology wise, on high tech stealth Drone and guided bombs, new Atomic bomb technology, Shoot around the corner Assault rifles, Military spending.

Know who Began Mobile and Cellular Phone technology by Defense R & D dollars? And guess who is Cashing In on the Marketing, New Developments? Tiny Finland Nokia, foreign Countries of all sorts with new Technology ideas.

Know that the Republican Insider Clique in late 1990’s decided on USA Future focus on Our Use, Development of our Military/Industrial Power and Complex. Remember what retiring General of the Army, President Eisenhower, Who Stopped the Korean War, Warned about? The Military Industrial Complex! No future in that.

Noticed where “The Action” is, last couple Decades, And the Future? Business, Trading, Commercial Development. China bought IBM, now buying Oil Fields, tried to Buy key USA Financial Infrastructure. The “Action” is in Commerce, Business, Not Warfare, Military, as Germany and Japan Showed, Proved to us Post WW II. :hey_bud: npatrol: :aok:

 

[Sailka]

Actually they didn’t, My great grand father arrived at Ellis Island with pcket change, My grand father worked all of his life in a steel mill and drove a cab at night to put my dad through school. My mom had to work to send my sister and I through school. We haven’t had a lot of money but we did what it took to get by.

We arrived Displaced Persons WW II Refugees, on the Liberty ship “General Ballou”, November 1949, with only One Silver spoon. Pope John Paul II the Great got our Family Castles back, as Historic Pastor to the Worls. It was not remotelly Non-Vet actor Ronald Reagan making a speech at the Wall that brought it down. It was Religiously honest thoughtful dictator Gorbachov who Initiated setting all Satellite states free, in what has never been done before in World History. No one thinks of that. No One.
Wasn’t it “Uncle Sam” Veterans Benefits, etc, that resulted in more than adequate income? Most of my Middle Class Friends used their Armed Forces experience to Contract Those type services to Government or the Public. Anything is difficult to do without Uncle Sam. But everything depends on who controls Uncle Sam. Hopefully, less Biggest Money, which pockets the change. Tiny trickle down or turnover.
Know how Ross Perot became Millionaire? By 2-300% Profits on Contracts to then HEW to computerize the new Medicaid, Medicare programs, late 1960’s. SSA Staff were key in unraveling the complex Regulations passed by Congress.

Massive Profits are almost Guaranteed in Government Contracts, especially DOD. Ever heard of (Inflated) Cost Plus?

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, tax God-given natural resources including land and oil. Give the money to the masses.

Money is artificial. It is not wealth per se. It is of no real value except what your faith is based on. If you don’t believe me, pull a $20 bill out of your wallet and a $1 bill. They have the same amount of paper, weigh the same, and have the same amount of ink. So why is one “worth” 20 times more than the other? Only BELIEF that one will buy you 20 times more than the other.

Money is today debt. Without debt there would be no money. But wealth stays. That includes land, oil, gold, silver, copper, etc. Why exactly would you want to tax these? And with what, paper?

 

[ProVobis]

General welfare would apply to roads, defense, postal service, monetary system, court system, I would even think the Center for Disease Control when they address eppidemics. All of these bennefit the population at large, not specific individuals at the detriment of others.

I agree. General welfare is definitely not corporate welfare and corporate bailouts, which have become the focus of today’s political climate.

 

[Sailka]

I am graciously going to step out of this conversation because I live under socialism now, and I know it does not and cannot work, and there is no way to explain this to people living comfortably in a capitalistic country who have no idea what kind of slavery they are willingly taking up for themselves and others.

This country is going right off a cliff, and socialism is to blame. Thousands of people here in Ontario are losing their extremely bloated and overpaid jobs every month. 850 lost their jobs yesterday as two auto parts plants closed down. And still the unions shriek that they will give no concessions and the managment can just Ante Up, even as management is in fact Closing Down.

So feel free to argue among yourselves from here on out.

A few points: Know what Caused the vast layoffs, Economic Crash? Opposite of ‘socialist’ or overpaid Unions.

Was Biggest Money Capitalism, getting Current adminstration to Deregulate Big Money Finance, as well as to Reverse ‘Welfare’ from Poor, needy to Richest, Biggest Most Profitable Corporations and Money. They over did their unregulated ‘freedoms’ And Imploded on themselves resulting in No Credit Available. It is the Massive No Credit Funds availability that caused the economic total collapse. Can’t sell Cars, or the neat Bombardier Ideal National range 100 Passenger New Airliners.
Don’t know that your Provincial Health System is clearly superior to the worst case USA health care Results businesses, with Vast Beaurocracies focused on Profits, not proper services? And Yoursystem lot less cost per capita than our All Business except Catholic Non-Profit Heath?

And, friend, good not to blame “socialism”, if do not know what it is.

 

[ProVobis]

Ever since the mid-90’s there have been time limits on welfare in the US - at least on the unemployment benefit - thanks to the Clinton Administration, which buries the idea that the populist left will always seek to “buy” votes by creating dependency.

The dependency risen over the years has been reinforced by the populist educational system supported by both major parties. It teaches that fiat currency is wealth and that taxing and borrowing and spending this fiat currency are always the proper instruments of distributing wealth.

 

[JPUSC]

Should there be greater distribution of wealth in the United States? If so, what is the right way to go about it? If not, please also share your thoughts.

On Social Concerns of the Church
Sollicitudo rei socialis
Pope John Paul II
1987.12.30

Full text:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30121987_sollicitudo-rei-socialis_en.html

Excerpts:
osjspm.org/majordoc_solicitudo_rei_socialis_notable_quotations.aspx

• Solidarity… is not a feeling of vague compassion or shallow distress at the misfortunes of so many people, both near and far. On the contrary, it is a firm and persevering determination to commit oneself to the common good; that is to say, to the good of all and of each individual, because we are all really responsible for all… (#38)
• **Those who are more influential because they have greater share of goods and common services should feel responsible for the weaker and be ready to share with them all they possess… ** the church feels called to take her stand beside the poor, to discern the justice of their requests and to help satisfy them, without losing sight of the good of groups in the context of the common good. (#39)
• A consistent theme of Catholic social teaching is the option or love of preference for the poor. Today, this preference has to be expressed in worldwide dimensions, embracing the immense numbers of the hungry, the needy, the homeless, those without medical care, and those without hope. (#42)
• Poverty is not only a question of having no material goods. Is the lack of human rights not also a form of poverty? (#15)
• **The right to private property is valid, but all private property is under a “social mortgage.” **(#42)

*Social mortgage is a term used in Catholic social teaching. According to this body of thought, the social mortgage is the conditions under which humanity is allowed to use the goods of the world, which are viewed as part of God’s creation. Use of the world’s resources is bound to responsibility towards the rest of humanity. Although there is a right to private property, it is not an absolute right. In particular, no one has the right to accumulate large amounts of private property while others in the world lack the basic requirements for survival and development.​

• The church has no technical solutions to offer, but being an “expert in humanity” the church has something to say about the nature, conditions, requirements, and aims of authentic development and the obstacles that stand in its way. The church’s social teaching is not a third way between capitalism and communism. It is not an ideology. Its aim is to guide Christians. It asks for a “commitment to justice.” (#41)
• Neither the East’s nor the West’s ideas of development are perfect. **Both systems need the correction of the church’s social teaching. ** (#21)
• Material goods and the way we are developing the use of them should be seen as God’s gifts to us. They are meant to bring out in each one of us the image of God. We must never lose sight of how we have been created: from the earth and from the breath of God. (#29)
• **The needs of the poor even outweigh the “need” for costly decorations, vestments, and utensils in worship. **It could be obligatory to sell those goods in order to provide food, drink, clothing, and shelter for those who lack these things. (#31)
• If development is the new name for peace, war and preparations for war are the major enemy of the healthy development of peoples.** If we take the common good of all humanity as our norm, instead of individual greed, peace would be possible.** (#10)

---

In other words, the Church says nations and individuals should strive for the common good and share the resources they have for they are gifts from God. We are responsible for one another and the ones who have been blessed with more are asked to share more to help those who are vulnerable and cannot help themselves.

In reality, everything on this earth belongs to God. Although there is a right to private property, it is not an absolute right. In particular, no one has the right to accumulate large amounts of private property while others in the world lack the basic requirements for survival and development.

The Church asks for solidarity, which should be true compassion, not a false or vague sense of compassion. I suppose the Church looks down on false and/or forced charity.

The Church condemns Marxism, Communism, Capitalism and the secular ideas of redistribution of wealth and asks nations to consider the Church’s social teachings.

In regards to current times, the government should not be “redistributing the wealth” for programs relating to sex-education in schools, abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia, capital punishment, same-sex marriage and other threats and poverties to society.

 

[royal_archer]

Realize that Reagan began the Buying of French Coast Guard Chopper, Daussult Search jets, etc?

Know that very little is left of our Airliner and Military Aircraft Industries, Once Premier in the world? Only the Boeing Dreamliner and J-35 multipurpose Fighter are left. Airliner manufacturing has been left to Airbus Industries European Consortium, Canadian and Brazilian small liner manufacturers. China And Russia, the Booming new economic and quickly becoming technological leaders are developing their own.

Heard the of the (Communist) Chinese Hydrogen powered developmental cars brandished at the recent Olympics? Who developed, sells the Prius?

Realize that the Current Administration has focused Our research on Extremely little return, jobwise or technology wise, on high tech stealth Drone and guided bombs, new Atomic bomb technology, Shoot around the corner Assault rifles, Military spending.

Know who Began Mobile and Cellular Phone technology by Defense R & D dollars? And guess who is Cashing In on the Marketing, New Developments? Tiny Finland Nokia, foreign Countries of all sorts with new Technology ideas.

Know that the Republican Insider Clique in late 1990’s decided on USA Future focus on Our Use, Development of our Military/Industrial Power and Complex. Remember what retiring General of the Army, President Eisenhower, Who Stopped the Korean War, Warned about? The Military Industrial Complex! No future in that.

Noticed where “The Action” is, last couple Decades, And the Future? Business, Trading, Commercial Development. China bought IBM, now buying Oil Fields, tried to Buy key USA Financial Infrastructure. The “Action” is in Commerce, Business, Not Warfare, Military, as Germany and Japan Showed, Proved to us Post WW II. :hey_bud: npatrol: :aok:

Actually they are building lots of aircraft including 737’s,747’s, and 777’s. we are also building F22s, f 15s, and F18s. As for development the reason things are not getting fielded is because different administrations keep changing what they want and abandon projects before they are completed. Many of the foriegn advances are repackaging of American designs.

You need to do a bit more research on what the military is working on. By the way, much of it will not make headlines because of security. but 10-20 years from now some civilian company will take the spin offs and market them as their own.

 

[royal_archer]

Massive Profits are almost Guaranteed in Government Contracts, especially DOD. Ever heard of (Inflated) Cost Plus?

Yep and that is what minimizes the amount of profit the contractors can make. it also allows easy changes to the contract when the government changes its mind on what they want. The governement frequently goes to the contractors and changes the requirments. as teh government drives up the cost the Cost plus contract automatically adjusts.

 

[Sailka]

The dependency risen over the years has been reinforced by the populist educational system supported by both major parties. It teaches that fiat currency is wealth and that taxing and borrowing and spending this fiat currency are always the proper instruments of distributing wealth.

I’ve never in my life heard anyone using ‘fiat wealth’ for food stamps, and survival programs. And I’ve got age superiority on you. How do you get “Wealth” out of survival programs? And the Amounts Nationally are smaller than the actual ‘fiat wealth’ being transferred to Biggest profits Businesses, Biggest Wealth Individuals since 2001. The quick $700 Billion is going to Bigest Corporations, and routine CEO bonuses, corporate Dividends. Isn’t that vast Public Wealth, Our tax dollars, being transferred to the Wealthiest, Who Caused the Crash?

 

[Sailka]

Yep and that is what minimizes the amount of profit the contractors can make. it also allows easy changes to the contract when the government changes its mind on what they want. The governement frequently goes to the contractors and changes the requirments. as teh government drives up the cost the Cost plus contract automatically adjusts.

Minimized Profits? How do the Private Contractors Vastly running up their alleged ‘costs’, but still yielding 30-200% Profits have small profits? Isn’t that Vastly higher rerturn than Other work? Ditto Oil Industry.

 

[Sailka]

Actually they are building lots of aircraft including 737’s,747’s, and 777’s. we are also building F22s, f 15s, and F18s. As for development the reason things are not getting fielded is because different administrations keep changing what they want and abandon projects before they are completed. Many of the foriegn advances are repackaging of American designs.

You need to do a bit more research on what the military is working on. By the way, much of it will not make headlines because of security. but 10-20 years from now some civilian company will take the spin offs and market them as their own.

Apparently you have not heard. Production on all but F-22’s stopped 20 to few years ago. F-15’s have been retired from service (Haven’t heard?) as have F14’s; 747 production stopped a couple years ago because of Dreamliner; same mass production 737’s. The new small Airbuses and Canadian 700’s have replaced it.

You need to update Your information on the US Aircraft Industry production. It is facing survival. The Dreamliner is competitive with the new Airbuses and the new F-35 will initiate into production soon. The Dreamliner and F-35 are the only big Aircraft Industry of the USA the next few years. Luckily Are 2. Airbus Industrie Consortium has more Models In production and planned for than entire US Big Aircraft Industry.

 

[royal_archer]

Minimized Profits? How do the Private Contractors Vastly running up their alleged ‘costs’, but still yielding 30-200% Profits have small profits? Isn’t that Vastly higher rerturn than Other work? Ditto Oil Industry.

What???

Cost plus is essentially a time and material contract. They get paid for direct labor hours plus actual costs for material plus a small 10-15% to cover other overhead expenses for the company. If the company falls behind or overruns they don’t get the “plus” and only get reimbursed for actual expenses. The only real potential for a big pay off is when a contractor comes in significantly below projected cost or well ahead of schedule and they may get an incentive fee.

 

[royal_archer]

Apparently you have not heard. Production on all but F-22’s stopped 20 to few years ago. F-15’s Many years ago, 747’s a few years ago; same mass production 737’s. The new small Airbuses and Canadian 700’s have replaced it.

You need to update Your information on the US Aircraft Industry production. It is facing survival. The Dreamliner is competitive with the new Airbuses.

really???

boeing.com/commercial/news/index.html

boeing.com/ids/news/index.html

lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/news.html

 

[christcnection1]

In reality, everything on this earth belongs to God. Although there is a right to private property, it is not an absolute right. In particular, no one has the right to accumulate large amounts of private property while others in the world lack the basic requirements for survival and development.

The Church asks for solidarity, which should be true compassion, not a false or vague sense of compassion. I suppose the Church looks down on false and/or forced charity.

The Church condemns Marxism, Communism, Capitalism and the secular ideas of redistribution of wealth and asks nations to consider the Church’s social teachings.

In regards to current times, the government should not be “redistributing the wealth” for programs relating to sex-education in schools, abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia, capital punishment, same-sex marriage and other threats and poverties to society.

Thanks for all your thoughts, and for providing the wealth of information.

Concerning private property not being an absolute right, are you suggesting (and the Church suggesting) that the government has a right at some point to take away someone’s wealth if it will support the common good?

Does the Church define under what circumstances such a reality could take place? I ask this because some here would consider any “redistribution” of wealth as theft, and depending on what we are discussing, I may or may not agree.

Finally, in light of your understanding of Catholic Social Teaching, what changes do you believe ought to be taken by our government in regards to fiscal policy? You seem to be right in line with the Church on moral issues, so that is pretty clear. But on some level, I suppose you can’t separate the two.

 

[Sailka]

really???

boeing.com/commercial/news/index.html

boeing.com/ids/news/index.html

lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/news.html

                                                                                 Yes, really.  If you read the  fine print,   a few F-15's are are being Moded for sale to other countries.  Ours are being moderate speed retired.

Noticed the 737 Order backlog is dated 2 Years ago? Those have been delivered. A Very Very few are being offered for special uses. No airlines are ordering them now.

A very few 747 updated technology May still be built. Main production is the now slowed 777. 787 Dreamliner delivery has been delayed more, by several types technical problems, like Strike, parts delivery, etc.
Thanks for the Links. Happy Thanksgiving