Distributism and Capitalism?

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I’ve been reading the founders of distributism following the dust up at IC and Acton’s contributions to the debate. (mostly comment warfare).

Many times an Austrian or Classical economist will make the accusation that distributism is socialist or, even more ludicrous, communist. I can’t figure out for the life of me why, Belloc certainly is not socialist, Chesterton reject socialism in favor of a “proprietary” or “distributed” economy.

Also, how can Capitalism, either as it existed immediately following the Industrial Revolution or as it exists now, be reconciled with the Church’s social teaching?
 
I’ve been reading the founders of distributism following the dust up at IC and Acton’s contributions to the debate. (mostly comment warfare).

Many times an Austrian or Classical economist will make the accusation that distributism is socialist or, even more ludicrous, communist. I can’t figure out for the life of me why, Belloc certainly is not socialist, Chesterton reject socialism in favor of a “proprietary” or “distributed” economy.

Also, how can Capitalism, either as it existed immediately following the Industrial Revolution or as it exists now, be reconciled with the Church’s social teaching?
Well, the big difference is that Marxist Socialism is forced, not voluntary, I think. We all have a natural law right to the ownership of property/things. Otherwise, we would never be able to exercise acts of charity as outlined, for example, in Matthew 25, where Jesus talks about Judgement Day and the criteria involved. “I was hungry and you gave me to eat.” It didn’t say, “I was hungry, the state fed Me because you had no choice in the matter.” Just like we can never sin outside of our free will, we can never grow in virtue outside of our free will. This, I think is the crux of the matter.

If we could have a voluntary distributed economy, we might be onto something. And, actually, in harder times in this country, it was much closer to a distributed economy. People were much more generous then because we all needed one another more. Now, there are so many government “programs” that we kind of assume it’s all taken care of by our taxes, via foodstamps, and other similar programs.
 
Well, the big difference is that Marxist Socialism is forced, not voluntary, I think.
Except that distributism is based on individual ownership, by as many individuals as possible. That is more opposed to socialism than capitalism which tends toward ownership by a few individuals.🤷
 
Except that distributism is based on individual ownership, by as many individuals as possible. That is more opposed to socialism than capitalism which tends toward ownership by a few individuals.🤷
Well, capitalism seems to me to be more “fluid” in that anyone has a right to “be all they can be.” If you want to work really hard, save your money, start your own business, etc., then you can. In socialism, this is much harder because they’re taking as much from you as they can so as to redistribute it. What’s the motivation to excel, then, if everyone gets an equal cut? We saw this in many countries who tried it, I think. The U.S., though, which is based on capitalism, is a leader in innovation, technology, inventions, etc. Why? Because there is motivation, something to be gained for yourself and your family. Americans, in general, work much harder than Europeans. In France, for example, (not sure if this is still true), everyone has six weeks vacation coming to them, by law, from the first day on the job! That makes it harder for European companies to compete with American companies unless there are other factors involved.
 
Well, capitalism seems to me to be more “fluid” in that anyone has a right to “be all they can be.” If you want to work really hard, save your money, start your own business, etc., then you can. In socialism, this is much harder because they’re taking as much from you as they can so as to redistribute it. What’s the motivation to excel, then, if everyone gets an equal cut? We saw this in many countries who tried it, I think. The U.S., though, which is based on capitalism, is a leader in innovation, technology, inventions, etc. Why? Because there is motivation, something to be gained for yourself and your family. Americans, in general, work much harder than Europeans. In France, for example, (not sure if this is still true), everyone has six weeks vacation coming to them, by law, from the first day on the job! That makes it harder for European companies to compete with American companies unless there are other factors involved.
In capitalism it is assumed that one can obtain productive property, but that is generally not the case, most families are dependent on a wage to pay rent (even on property they “own” via a mortgage), car loans, student loans (if they are upwardly mobile). In other words, “The cake is a lie”.

Distributism (what I am arguing for) would be expressed in the US as a focus on small business and the occasional cooperative, something that has been hampered in development by the progressive tax structure and benefits to big businesses (a number of which haven’t ended up paying taxes recently).

A few Distributists would argue that it is merely a form of Capitalism. I follow Belloc in pointing to the accumulating disparity of wealth as the mark of distinction between what had existed under Christendom and what followed the rise of nationalism (and the seizure of the monasteries, etc.) and we now call Capitalism. The trend of Property into the hands of the Producers was suddenly reversed, and it began to flow back into the hands of the Nobles.

American superiority through its markets is rapidly becoming a myth: we are falling behind China in important metrics (manufacturing and exports), behind the more socialized states of Europe in quality of life, behind Japan and India in technical innovation. Now socialism isn’t the answer, but neither is the status quo (nor the Trust Capitalism of the Victorian age).
 
I’m not sure anybody really knows what a fully “capitalist” system would look like. Other than perhaps Singapore, I’m not sure there are any in the world. Certainly, the U.S. is not a “capitalist” country. It’s more a mixture of socialism and crony capitalism; which it holds in common with most of the world and certainly with most developed countries. Chile comes closer to it than does the U.S. We’re hardly the world paragon.

Part of the problem with “purer” versions of capitalism, historically, is that many “capitalists” managed to ally themselves with the State to gain advantage. Perhaps it’s actually impossible to have “pure capitalism” for that reason. It tends to become “crony capitalism”.

It might be noted parenthetically that the “Distributism” of Belloc and Chesterton is a different thing from the “Distributism” of, say, Dorothy Day; something that causes a lot of confusion. The first was more like “pure capitalism” without the “crony” part, while the latter is closer to socialism with a modest dose of the “crony” part.

While surely someone has written an erudite book on what Distributism would be in today’s world, I have not run across one. I’ll have to say, as well, that we’re so deep into crony capitalism that even the hard left is sold on it. To be a “crony” you have to be big, because only the “bigs” have the wherewithal to contribute mightily to political campaigns.

And it has to be said that almost nobody in this society supports truly Distributist principles. Everybody, it seems, is unthinkingly “capitalist”, politically, without considering its tendency to become allied with the state (and its own forms of oppression, the worst of which is consumerism) or unthinkingly socialist, expecting the government to do absolutely everything short of perhaps attending to their post-valsalva maneuver hygiene. 🙂

So, for now, such Distributism as actually can be said to exist is, in my opinion (whatever it’s worth) is essentially an “underground” phenomenon; a small business person, shopkeeper or farmer trying to swim against the tide of regulation, taxation and government’s favoring of the “bigs” in order to acquire inheritable, productive assets for himself and his family. Some, who are wage-earners are doing so “on the side”; the weekend farmer or landscaper or consultant who also consumes below his means in order to build owned assets and somehow escapes the “60 hour week” that so many big employers seem to favor for professionals and white collar workers nowadays.

I have said on here before, that much of Distributism is in the mind, and I think it certainly is in a society like ours in which even the USCCB seems to be against it and inclined toward the “depend on government” extreme.

It’s very difficult for an individual to shake off the coils of utter dependence on the wage-payer or the government, and even harder to shake them off completely. But an individual can do it at least in part. But consuming below one’s means is an absolute prerequisite, and not too many people want to do that. Consumerist dependency is a siren song that virtually everything in popular culture now sings.
 
In capitalism it is assumed that one can obtain productive property, but that is generally not the case, most families are dependent on a wage to pay rent (even on property they “own” via a mortgage), car loans, student loans (if they are upwardly mobile). In other words, “The cake is a lie”.
But is this really inevitable? I’ll agree that it isn’t easy to do without a car loan or at least significant student loans. But it can be done. Mortgages on houses are hard to avoid, I’ll grant. I maintain that people can obtain productive property, but that it’s extremely difficult to do unless one cuts back on one’s expectations and particularly on one’s borrowing.

I maintain, too, that it’s often an inter-generational thing. My earnings have always been on the modest side, relatively speaking. But of all my now adult children, only one has any school debt, notwithstanding that all but one also went through graduate school. One owes about $12,000 and another owed about half that but has now paid it off. How did they do that? Well, they hunted scholarships for one thing. Some got big ones, some didn’t. Those who didn’t fare so well went to state schools where tuition was, frankly, quite low, and concentrated on graduate school. Two of them got scholarships to grad school by selecting relatively new schools (which tend to be more generous than well-established ones) All of them worked, and raised a few head of cattle on the side, which they then sold to help pay for school. (We’re now starting over with cattle for grandchildren) Also, my wife and I did without in a thousand ways, because we couldn’t stand the thought of their graduating with huge debts. I haven’t had a car loan for decades, because I always buy used cars of significant vintage and run the wheels off them. Bought “junkers” for my kids to go to grad school, because all “school cars” get torn up anyway. New tires and oil changes are cheaper than new cars. Our house wasn’t new when we bought it. I repainted it myself (the high eaves were thrilling to paint, I’ll admit. It’s two-story.) We never eat out unless it’s someone’s birthday, and even then we usually don’t. I travel a lot on day trips, and buy the $1.00 meals and carry my own water with me to drink with it. I take my lunch to work every day, even though I now own my own business and could easily afford to eat at the very nice place right across the street.

And we’re probably not all that good at it. I’m not representing that we are. But we have acquired a few things along the way. One rule is that we never borrow to consume, but never hesitate to borrow in order to invest, particularly when that investment can be deducted in full or very largely short-term. The way I look at it, when I buy mother cows, for instance, the government is paying 1/3 to 40% of the cost, because of the deduction. Land rental is laughably inexpensive. Maybe none of my children will raise cattle “on the side”, (though one does and I think some of the others will in time) but they all know how, and my grandchildren are learning. Learning one or two investment vehicles well and not hesitating to borrow to follow them makes a lot of difference, particularly if some acquirable skill is required in making them work. We’re not wealthy, but except for just a few “tricks”, and living below our means, we wouldn’t own much more than our house and cars either. I learned cattle, the real estate market, the poultry market and how banks work. I concentrate on those things. I don’t know anything outside my “day job” other than those things. I wouldn’t know a good tech stock from a bad one. But I don’t have to.

We’re not all that talented. We really aren’t. I’m only saying this stuff because I really want people to understand that they actually can acquire some things in life. But you have to give up a lot of things that seem important at the time but really aren’t, and you have to understand that some generation or other has to provide a little “seed stock”, as it were, to help things along for the next generation, unless one generation is extraordinarily talented or lucky.

And I know not everybody can raise cattle. That’s just an example. I bought a bobcat for farm use, and there’s a strong market for landscaping, and people pay handsomely for it. I could do that and make money doing it if I wanted to, because I have learned to operate it very well. (And the cattle do take up my spare time.) And, yes, the government paid about 35% of the cost of the bobcat, in effect, because of the deduction. Yup, I borrowed the money to buy it, but I have paid it off. You can do that if you drive an old car for which you paid cash. You can earn money with a bobcat, but not with a new car. And you can’t deduct what you pay for the car, or the interest on the loan either. I do know a guy who does landscaping with a bobcat, and he does pretty well. On a more modest level, I know a guy who bought one of those really nice mower tractors, a bat-wing mower attachment, a fertilizer spreader, a good weed-eater and a hedge clipper. He does lawn maintenance on weekends and gets paid well for it because he is really good at it, and fast. He was able to deduct the cost of his equipment, of course. Anybody who wants to badly enough can do things like that.

If you wait for the system to make Distributism possible for you, you’ll be waiting forever. It’s not so inclined. You have to make it happen yourself.
 
Except that distributism is based on individual ownership, by as many individuals as possible. That is more opposed to socialism than capitalism which tends toward ownership by a few individuals.🤷
I think last I looked, anyone can own stock. I’m not saying you have to, but if you don’t, don’t expect me to give you some of mine voluntarily without a pretty good reason.
 
I personally consider myself of the Chicago school of economics (though I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know everything about economics).

I am one of the staunchest supporters of capitalism and the free-market.

Let people keep more of their money and let them do with it as they please.

Government forced charity is not charity. Only when individuals come together outside of the government to do good can a society truly be charitable.

I may be in the minority, but it’s really because of this that I view capitalism as the most moral economic system.
 
Most of the distributism info I have read was from Chesterton. I’m by no means a Chesterton fan and I found distributism pretty blasted unrealistic, especially for this day and age! I’m a capitalism fan…with all its pimples, scars, and bruises it’s the best thing out there…

Where’s Bill Buckley when you need him!?
 
I think last I looked, anyone can own stock. I’m not saying you have to, but if you don’t, don’t expect me to give you some of mine voluntarily without a pretty good reason.
A couple points. Anyone who has disposable income can own stock, which immediately cuts out 1/2-3/4s of the population in the US (incomes up to mid-60k). Stock, even in the large quantities required to exercise the prerogatives of ownership, is still highly separated from the realities of direct ownership. It may serve as a link for those in possession of cash to obtain indirectly productive property, but it is a poor substitute for real ownership.
 
Most of the distributism info I have read was from Chesterton. I’m by no means a Chesterton fan and I found distributism pretty blasted unrealistic, especially for this day and age! I’m a capitalism fan…with all its pimples, scars, and bruises it’s the best thing out there…

Where’s Bill Buckley when you need him!?
The Distributists do themselves a disservice in over emphasizing Chesterton, Belloc and Cobbett make much more convincing arguments, respectively, to the theory and practicality of small ownership (as does Ridgerunner).
But is this really inevitable? I’ll agree that it isn’t easy to do without a car loan or at least significant student loans. But it can be done. Mortgages on houses are hard to avoid, I’ll grant. I maintain that people can obtain productive property, but that it’s extremely difficult to do unless one cuts back on one’s expectations and particularly on one’s borrowing.
snip<
If you wait for the system to make Distributism possible for you, you’ll be waiting forever. It’s not so inclined. You have to make it happen yourself.
I agree that it is possible, but as you say, very difficult. Nearly 1/5 of the country are “near poor” or “poor” (below 125% of the poverty line, per Census data).

Yes, we do need to reestablish an attitude of ownership starting with ourselves, but we ought to also develop political gaols to encourage small business and broader ownership.
I am one of the staunchest supporters of capitalism and the free-market.

Let people keep more of their money and let them do with it as they please.

Government forced charity is not charity. Only when individuals come together outside of the government to do good can a society truly be charitable.

I may be in the minority, but it’s really because of this that I view capitalism as the most moral economic system.
See, I support the workers keeping more of what they produce, and their tools to produce it. Capitalism, if unchecked, leads inevitably to exploitation: of resources and of workers. That is why we have labor unions (which I have no love for), child labor laws (which are mixed but currently favor family business), and anti-trust laws (which I wish were much more stringently enforced): Capitalism at its peak was destructive in far more important ways than it was productive.
 
A couple points. Anyone who has disposable income can own stock, which immediately cuts out 1/2-3/4s of the population in the US (incomes up to mid-60k). Stock, even in the large quantities required to exercise the prerogatives of ownership, is still highly separated from the realities of direct ownership. It may serve as a link for those in possession of cash to obtain indirectly productive property, but it is a poor substitute for real ownership.
That is untrue. If there were no social security, everyone could put their 15 percent into the stock market. As it is now, you own part of the government. Too bad it is in the red, but you own an entitlement to social security.

If someone cannot afford to buy something, they are not entitled to own it. The only way they could own it is for someone else to have it stolen and given to them, or as the beneficiary of someones good will or an inheritance, etc.

Anyway…what is it you want people to own???
 
That is untrue. If there were no social security, everyone could put their 15 percent into the stock market. As it is now, you own part of the government. Too bad it is in the red, but you own an entitlement to social security.
True, that 15% is burdensome, but many have more immediate needs to be able to invest much in stock, even if they were to have that money.
If someone cannot afford to buy something, they are not entitled to own it. The only way they could own it is for someone else to have it stolen and given to them, or as the beneficiary of someones good will or an inheritance, etc.
They are not entitled to it, unless of course it has been taken from them (even if they were paid an unjust amount).
I desire that individual men have “ownership of productive property”, that is, to own the means of his employment (tools and resources necessary for his trade) and “what his own labor has produced” (either directly or fair share of the company he works for).

“Is it just that the fruit of a man’s own sweat and labor should be possessed and enjoyed by any one else?” That is what enables the capitalist system to work, the majority not owning their work or the results thereof.


quotes are from Rerum Novarum
[/QUOTE]
 
Lke a college education? A professional degree? A landowner that farms his land.That all works pretty well.

I don’t understand, however; how a car mechanic should own the shop unless employee ownership rights form part of his wage. Is the owner of the shop supposed to forfeit his property to his employees just so they will work? Some mechanics would rather have a higher wage or benefits.

I have always liked 401k plans that match company stock purchases Profit sharing is generally a good idea. However some folks wish they hadn’t been so entitled. Ownership involves risk, sometimes outside the control of the worker. (e.g. Enron)

I believe that a person has life choices to make under the best of systems. How he priorities how hard he works, whether he becomes a entrapeneur, spends his money on a second TV or stock…should be a choice, not a system.
 
Lke a college education? A professional degree? A landowner that farms his land.That all works pretty well.
…that and the computer, the desk and chair. A degree, however, remains an elusive goal for more than two-thirds of the American population (according to Census data)
I don’t understand, however; how a car mechanic should own the shop unless employee ownership rights form part of his wage. Is the owner of the shop supposed to forfeit his property to his employees just so they will work? Some mechanics would rather have a higher wage or benefits.
Exactly. A mechanic should have a fair share (not necessarily equal). The employee shouldn’t have to give up a large portion of the fruits of his labor just to “be allowed” to work. The model of employer-employee feeds the competition between classes condemned by the popes.*
I have always liked 401k plans that match company stock purchases Profit sharing is generally a good idea. However some folks wish they hadn’t been so entitled. Ownership involves risk, sometimes outside the control of the worker. (e.g. Enron)
I believe that a person has life choices to make under the best of systems. How he priorities how hard he works, whether he becomes a entrapeneur, spends his money on a second TV or stock…should be a choice, not a system.
And some slaves in 1865 wish they hadn’t been freed. I want workers to get their due, then do with it what they will, not have their access at best restricted by their -]masters/-] employers and government.

*In the long run the relations between workers and owners takes the form of a prisoner’s dilemma: if workers seek to deprive owners of their natural rights we get socialism, if owners seek to deprive workers we get the capitalist state (both of which lead to the servile state), if both seek to deprive each other neither gets their full rights (where we are at today). Only by cooperating in preserving each other’s rights can they all be preserved.
 
Well, the big difference is that Marxist Socialism is forced, not voluntary, I think.
We are under the illusion of having a vote that matters. This capitalism is essentially forced too. Good example: in the 90s a referendum for Scottish independence was held and when the majority voted for it, they fixed it so that ‘no votes’ counted as 'no’s. Everything is forced on someone.
 
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