Disturbing News on TLM

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I got an email back from a local pastor in my area in regards to implementing the Extra Ordinary Form at the local parish and asked if his parishiners knew about the TLM and if he would replace one of his 6 Sunday Masses with a TLM in the future. Here is his reply:

“Dear Bob,
Very briefly…yes, I do speak with my parishioners. I check in with
them on a variety of topics. By the way, I know Latin fairly well. I was
of the generation in the Seminary that was not only taught Latin but was
taught in Latin. In speaking with them, the overwhelming majority find it a
curiosity, much like having a Mass in Spanish or German or Pennsylvania
Dutch. As far as attending Mass regularly in Latin, no, that is not for
them. They have no interest whatsoever.
Yes, we need all six Masses in English. In fact, we preparing for a time
in the not so distant future when there will be even fewer priests available
for Mass and that may mandate a reduction in the number of Masses here. Our
church was built for that contingency. I doubt very much that there is any
interest in any other parish around here. As far as young seminarians,
there are less than 40 studying for Philadelphia. Not exactly overwhelming
numbers. They do not have much interest in any foreign language, let alone
Latin. They do learn conversational Spanish.
If there was a major need for a Tridentine Mass, yes, I would be
interested. But there has been none and I think I know my parishioners
fairly well. Take care and God bless.
Father Riegler”

I thought the seminaries were growing, and those in them were required to learn both forms of the Mass.
 
And an email back from another local parish.

"We do not offer the Tridentine Mass here at St. David, and for the foreseeable future we will not be offering the Latin Mass.

God bless you, Robert
Monsignor Bolger"
 
you asked this priest about very local conditions, his parish, the seminary serving his diocese, and he responded to your question, refering to local conditions. no reason to make any global assumptions based on his opinion or plans or outlook.
 
It would be helpful if you could post your original letter to him. It’s somewhat hard to follow as he seems to be answering your questions.

Most seminaries are growing. Right now, they are not required to learn the EF, but hopefully, that will change in the near future.
 
bkovacs said:
And an email back from another local parish.

"We do not offer the Tridentine Mass here at St. David, and for the foreseeable future we will not be offering the Latin Mass.

God bless you, Robert
Monsignor Bolger"
Click to expand...
I had an interesting discussion with my pastor today on this subject. He said that out of 1300+ families, 3 individuals had expressed interest in Latin Mass.

One went so far as to imply that they had the “right” to “demand” a Mass in Latin. To which, the pastor replied, “if so, I will do it at the 8 am Mass on Tuesdays”.

He says that he is in no way obligated to discombobulate the Sunday Mass schedule (4 Masses, packed to the rafters, one in Spanish) to accomodate a “demand” for Latin.

The responses you received would seem to bear out the idea that while some folks vehemently want it, the overall demand just isn’t there.
 
This is disturbing news not so much with the TLM but with expectations of that parish in the foreseeable future. Those that applaud the priest’s statement will probably regret their actions when they see the closing of the doors of that church altogether.
 
Frater John: Give thanks to the Lord that at least your parish investigated the idea. You could live in a diocese like mine where the MP was “acknowledged” by our bishop followed by (the next week) a scathing editorial in the diocese by the chancellor of the diocese that nobody wanted the MP.

If this were to go before the federal EEOC Commission, it would be called the “chill effect”. “Nobody wants” is a code word for “you ain’t gonna get it”. I haven’t been contacted by the diocese about my wishes so this is not a scientific study.

And the veritable truth is that there has not been a scientifically valid study in my diocese regarding whether or not the EF should be adopted at the parish level. How valid is it when the bishop “acknowledges” (see history of code words) the MP and sets his chancellor as an “attack dog” in the diocesan newspaper the very next week about “nobody wants the MP”. Hardly scientific but very chilling. The acknowledgement and the editorial are more than sufficient to convince me that we aren’t going to get any more than a low Mass indult parish.

Funny - our bishop was chaplain at my high school the year after I graduated. He knows how to celebrate the EF.
 
brotherhrolf said:
Frater John: Give thanks to the Lord that at least your parish investigated the idea. You could live in a diocese like mine where the MP was “acknowledged” by our bishop followed by (the next week) a scathing editorial in the diocese by the chancellor of the diocese that nobody wanted the MP.

If this were to go before the federal EEOC Commission, it would be called the “chill effect”. “Nobody wants” is a code word for “you ain’t gonna get it”. I haven’t been contacted by the diocese about my wishes so this is not a scientific study.

And the veritable truth is that there has not been a scientifically valid study in my diocese regarding whether or not the EF should be adopted at the parish level. How valid is it when the bishop “acknowledges” (see history of code words) the MP and sets his chancellor as an “attack dog” in the diocesan newspaper the very next week about “nobody wants the MP”. Hardly scientific but very chilling. The acknowledgement and the editorial are more than sufficient to convince me that we aren’t going to get any more than a low Mass indult parish.

Funny - our bishop was chaplain at my high school the year after I graduated. He knows how to celebrate the EF.
Click to expand...
Howdy brotherhrolf 🙂 Haven’t seen you post for a few days.

I read the prior post regarding all the letter writing, etc. I guess we’ll see how it plays out. But, as a practical matter, I don’t see our parish ditching a full-house Sunday Mass to accomodate three (or even thirty) people for TLM.

I guess we could drop the Spanish Mass. But I doubt the Bishop would let that happen either.

I don’t have anything against Latin, but it doesn’t do a thing for me.

As a practical matter, I don’t see how forcing it on the masses (pun intended) is going to foster a greater desire for it. The Church in the next town ten miles away has lots of empty seats that would fill up quickly if our parish was forced to do a TLM on Sunday…and that would rock the financial boat for sure. And, we all know (like it or not) that money talks.
 
bkovacs said:
I got an email back from a local pastor in my area in regards to implementing the Extra Ordinary Form at the local parish and asked if his parishiners knew about the TLM and if he would replace one of his 6 Sunday Masses with a TLM in the future. Here is his reply:

“Dear Bob,
Very briefly…yes, I do speak with my parishioners. I check in with
them on a variety of topics. By the way, I know Latin fairly well. I was
of the generation in the Seminary that was not only taught Latin but was
taught in Latin. In speaking with them, the overwhelming majority find it a
curiosity, much like having a Mass in Spanish or German or Pennsylvania
Dutch. As far as attending Mass regularly in Latin, no, that is not for
them. They have no interest whatsoever.
Yes, we need all six Masses in English. In fact, we preparing for a time
in the not so distant future when there will be even fewer priests available
for Mass and that may mandate a reduction in the number of Masses here. Our
church was built for that contingency. I doubt very much that there is any
interest in any other parish around here. As far as young seminarians,
there are less than 40 studying for Philadelphia. Not exactly overwhelming
numbers. They do not have much interest in any foreign language, let alone
Latin. They do learn conversational Spanish.
If there was a major need for a Tridentine Mass, yes, I would be
interested. But there has been none and I think I know my parishioners
fairly well. Take care and God bless.
Father Riegler”

I thought the seminaries were growing, and those in them were required to learn both forms of the Mass.
Click to expand...
With all due respect to the pastor, I have to disagree with him on several points. To be fair to the TLM, which has not been offered in most parishes for over 40 years, I think parishioners would need to be exposed to it and catechized on it, in order for some of them to express that they prefer the NO in English. One parish in NJ did just that… the pastor offered a six week seminar on the TLM for his parishioners, began offering the TLM regularly on a Sunday morning, and attracted about 1,000 people to the TLM! At the very least, your pastor is not correct regarding the state of the seminarians or St. Charles Borromeo Seiminary. Several of the seminarians studying for Philadelphia are interested in the TLM, and next Fall the seminary is offering a course in how to offer the TLM. Hang in there!

God bless,

Fr. Boyd
 
ProVobis said:
This is disturbing news not so much with the TLM but with expectations of that parish in the foreseeable future. Those that applaud the priest’s statement will probably regret their actions when they see the closing of the doors of that church altogether.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I guess I don’t get the gist of your post. Are you saying that not having a TLM will result in that particular church closing it’s doors? 🤷
 
“The Church in the next town ten miles away has lots of empty seats that would fill up quickly if our parish was forced to do a TLM on Sunday…and that would **rock the financial boat **for sure.”

Not if the bishop requires those attending the TLM to continue to support their local communities as well. This also has an effect of skewing the numbers toward the NOM, further justifying closing of the TLM if they really want to do that.
 
Sure said:
It would be helpful if you could post your original letter to him. It’s somewhat hard to follow as he seems to be answering your questions.

Most seminaries are growing. Right now, they are not required to learn the EF, but hopefully, that will change in the near future.
Click to expand...
Original Letter and follow up:

Do you offer the Extra Ordinary Form of the Mass (Tridentine Mass). If
not are there any plans to offer the Mass in the future. I am a
Traditional Roman Catholic and follow the Extra Ordinary Form liturgical
calendar as well as the 1962 Missal. Recently moved to Quakertown.
Code: 
                            Thanks
                            Bob K.
Follow up:

“Dear Bob,
No, we do not plan to offer the Tridentine Mass. Right now our
personnel are stretched just covering the regular Masses. We have a Spanish
language Mass and that is celebrated by a priest who comes here once a month
for that purpose. I am not sure where in this area there would be a
Tridentine Mass. You may want to contact the Archdiocese. Take care.
Father Riegler”

Followup

"Do you really need five Sunday Ordinary Form Masses. Can’t you make at
least one of them a Tridentine Mass (Extra Ordinary Form) in the future.
I understand that you may not be able to understand Latin or that you
refuse to offer the Extra Ordinary form of the Holy Mass. But the
younger seminarians are. Ever since I seen the beauty of the Tridentine
Mass, I now feel that most of the beauty of the Catholic liturgical
tradition had been stripped away from my generation. Your generation may
not yearn for it. But allot of younger Roman Catholics who have been to
one love it. Here is a good website to learn how it is progressing
today.
thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

Do you even talk about it to your parishioners?"

Reply is in my first post.
 
Brother_John said:
Howdy brotherhrolf 🙂 Haven’t seen you post for a few days.

I read the prior post regarding all the letter writing, etc. I guess we’ll see how it plays out. But, as a practical matter, I don’t see our parish ditching a full-house Sunday Mass to accomodate three (or even thirty) people for TLM.

I guess we could drop the Spanish Mass. But I doubt the Bishop would let that happen either.

I don’t have anything against Latin, but it doesn’t do a thing for me.

As a practical matter, I don’t see how forcing it on the masses (pun intended) is going to foster a greater desire for it. The Church in the next town ten miles away has lots of empty seats that would fill up quickly if our parish was forced to do a TLM on Sunday…and that would rock the financial boat for sure. And, we all know (like it or not) that money talks.
Click to expand...
You do know that that is a pretty cynical statement in two ways - one, no one is forcing the EF on the “masses” and your statement about finances is just “way over the top”. I don’t have a thing against the “a grinnin’ and a strummin” but they turn my stomach and cause me to drive 25 miles to attend a Mass where I don’t have to put up with such. Fair is fair my friend.
 
brotherhrolf said:
You do know that that is a pretty cynical statement in two ways - one, no one is forcing the EF on the “masses” and your statement about finances is just “way over the top”. I don’t have a thing against the “a grinnin’ and a strummin” but they turn my stomach and cause me to drive 25 miles to attend a Mass where I don’t have to put up with such. Fair is fair my friend.
Click to expand...
Sorry if I offended you. But other posts make it pretty clear that it CAN be forced on a parish if a group is tenacious enough.

I’m looking at it from the standpoint of my parish. Five Masses each weekend (Saturday Vigil, 3 Sunday English, 1 Sunday Spanish) ALL of which are SRO. This in a 300 seat church. We are building a new 800 seat church across the street, at which time, we will lose a priest and one of the Sunday English Masses.

And we both know that Sunday collections drive the bus. If one Mass in our parish was forced to be in Latin, a large number of people would flee to the next parish, which has plenty of extra seats, and take their tithes with them. We already have the one Spanish Mass, which generates a pittance in comparison to the other Masses.

Not theologically, politically, or philosophically correct…but reality nonetheless.

Time for Stations…gotta go 😉
 
I believe much does depend on the dispositions of both the parish priest and the members. We are blessed to be part of a very orthodox parish, and many of our members are interested in seeing a return to the TLM. In my understanding, our priest is making the appropriate preparations. But I could not see this happening, however wonderful it might be, in a “different” sort of parish, of which there are many.
 
FrRJBoyd said:
With all due respect to the pastor, I have to disagree with him on several points. To be fair to the TLM, which has not been offered in most parishes for over 40 years, I think parishioners would need to be exposed to it and catechized on it, in order for some of them to express that they prefer the NO in English. One parish in NJ did just that… the pastor offered a six week seminar on the TLM for his parishioners, began offering the TLM regularly on a Sunday morning, and attracted about 1,000 people to the TLM! At the very least, your pastor is not correct regarding the state of the seminarians or St. Charles Borromeo Seiminary. Several of the seminarians studying for Philadelphia are interested in the TLM, and next Fall the seminary is offering a course in how to offer the TLM. Hang in there!

God bless,

Fr. Boyd
Click to expand...
Father, with respect. I am a member of a cathedral parish and a member of a cathedral choir. I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to attend a reverent OF. I have seen us banned from singing in Latin in the 80s. As someone who was baptized and confirmed before Vatican II, I cannot tell you what I felt having to use the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal to sing Pange Lingua in English. Or any of the sequences.

Father, I was an altar boy from 1960 through 1968. I have served Mass when there was no one but Father and I in attendance. There were no short cuts or slurring the Latin to speed things up. Father was a combat veteran. He jumped from an airplane on D-Day.

My cathedral parish has attracted all sorts of folks my age in the last twenty five years. We have gone from 200 parishoners registered for envelopes in 1983 to over 2000 families today. We must be doing something right. We have a choir that routinely sings in Latin - chant and motets. But the chill factor from the bishop (who merely “acknowleged” the MP [his exact word] followed by the "nobody wants the MP from the Chancellor - well, I’ve spent 30 years working for state government and “acknowledged” is the same thing as saying “Ok, you said it. I acknowledge it and I’m not going to do a blooming thing about it.”

Father, we’ve attracted folks who don’t want the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin. Our rector is in his 70s…this is same Mass he said when he was first ordained. I am grateful for the fact that we can sing Gregorian Chant, that we can sing sacred motets…

Ours is an elder popultaion. We don’t need catechesis for that which we grew up with. No one wants the EF.
 
I have sent emails to 6 more parishes in the local area and will get back with you all on the replys. If there are any!.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
I believe much does depend on the dispositions of both the parish priest and the members. We are blessed to be part of a very orthodox parish, and many of our members are interested in seeing a return to the TLM. In my understanding, our priest is making the appropriate preparations. But I could not see this happening, however wonderful it might be, in a “different” sort of parish, of which there are many.
Click to expand...
A parish can be orthodox and have no interest in offering the TLM.
 
bkovacs said:
I have sent emails to 6 more parishes in the local area and will get back with you all on the replys. If there are any!.
Click to expand...
Why do this?

Do you let them know you will ‘talk about them’ once you get an answer back?
 
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