Disturbing News on TLM

[bkovacs]

I think you have a problem with your priest not the Church. From your other posts I can understand why you are irritated. However that is no reason to leave the Church. I can see that you dislike your former parish because you have a liberal cowboy priest who makes Mass irreverent. However this doesn’t mean anything about the Church. Look at the ancient Churches and the heresies that almost destroyed it. The Church survived and will continue to.

It is still there.

I have a problem with the entire Western Church period!. Not just one priest. I don’t even attend this priests parish, especially after he wrote me back and told me no TLM. Sure these priests work hard and are good people. But when it comes to the traditions of the church, the traditions of secular society are more important to them. When I started going to a local Orthodox Church, is when I began to really appreciate traditional forms of worship. And learning from the early church fathers, and desert monks. Not secular theologians!. I always hear from older people how no body goes to church any more. When I was young we did this, and dressed properly. The old people had the advantage of having been around when there was these great traditions in the church, now what do we have?. A Church that is falling apart, clergy abuse, more talk about abortion than you can shake a stick at, liturgical abuses, lose of faith, etc. All this after priests started doing their own thing. Giving up the traditions and giving into secular society. And we ask to bring back the traditions, and we get a strange look. Then you wonder why I am irrate. Maybe this is the “wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul” that Pope Pius V warned us about.

 

[Brother_John]

I have a problem with the entire Western Church period!. Not just one priest. I don’t even attend this priests parish, especially after he wrote me back and told me no TLM. Sure these priests work hard and are good people. But when it comes to the traditions of the church, the traditions of secular society are more important to them. When I started going to a local Orthodox Church, is when I began to really appreciate traditional forms of worship. And learning from the early church fathers, and desert monks. Not secular theologians!. I always hear from older people how no body goes to church any more. When I was young we did this, and dressed properly. The old people had the advantage of having been around when there was these great traditions in the church, now what do we have?. A Church that is falling apart, clergy abuse, more talk about abortion than you can shake a stick at, liturgical abuses, lose of faith, etc. All this after priests started doing their own thing. Giving up the traditions and giving into secular society. And we ask to bring back the traditions, and we get a strange look. Then you wonder why I am irrate. Maybe this is the “wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul” that Pope Pius V warned us about.

So we can extrapolate from your posts, that you are engaged in a sort of personal crusade against the Catholic Church, and that you represent the “wrath of Almighty God” ??? :ehh:

 

[bkovacs]

So, I gather that you are happy in the church you now attend? The offer the things you crave the most? Yes?

Then why are you so intent on changing how other churches are doing things?

Maybe because I eventually want to return to the church I was born into. But not until that church starts to reform the reform as Pope Benedict has put it. To return to it’s Catholic roots.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Maybe because I eventually want to return to the church I was born into. But not until that church starts to reform the reform as Pope Benedict has put it. To return to it’s Catholic roots.

To the church you were born into?

The reform of the reform might not get you there - then what?

 

[bkovacs]

So we can extrapolate from your posts, that you are engaged in a sort of personal crusade against the Catholic Church, and that you represent the “wrath of Almighty God” ??? :ehh:

I don’t represent anything!. This wrath was bought about by the church giving into secularization. The outcome of the wrath a church in disorder. People loosing their faith, masses like drive throughs, priestly abuses, poor teaching, etc. I just want things to go back to the way they were, before Vatican 2. When things were holy, and sacred.

 

[Brother_John]

I don’t represent anything!. This wrath was bought about by the church giving into secularization. The outcome of the wrath a church in disorder. People loosing their faith, masses like drive throughs, priestly abuses, poor teaching, etc. I just want things to go back to the way they were, before Vatican 2. When things were holy, and sacred.

Things ARE holy and sacred. Vatican II did not change that.

 

[stmaria]

Are you now the sole authority within the Church as to what is right and wrong?

That you disagree with ones opinion does not make you right and them wrong. It means you have a difference of opinion.

There is no specific Church teaching that specifies what one should or shouldn’t do before attending a TLM.

Aren’t you being hypocritical?

---

Brother John
Re: Has anyone changed there mind here?
Speaking of “changing minds”…
Over the past 20 years, I had sponsored 2 converts into the Church. One Baptist, and one “Disciples of Christ”.
Numbers 3 and 4 will complete their journey on the 22nd of this month…one Baptist and one “Church of Christ”.

I started all four of them by taking her to the 9:30 guitar Mass. Two of them now prefer the “traditional organ Mass” at 8 or 11 am.

I started a few weeks ago on #5, by taking her to a couple of Life Teen Masses, even though she is nearly 40. She also is/was Baptist. She said she liked the music, even though she could tell that I didn’t. She also said that it was “more of a ceremony” than the church she had been going to. (progress, in small steps)

I wouldn’t think of trying to encourage a potential convert by throwing them headlong into a TLM. I’m trying to win them over, not scare them off.

**Stick their toe in, then their legs, then let them wade a bit…**Throwing them overboard in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean might teach them to swim out of neccessity, but it won’t encourage them to want to swim in the future.

You are saying what I am saying. You don’t just throw someone into the Traditional mass either.. it would be best if before they go to the TLM they first go to the site suggested by Dustin’s Dad. It would help if they familarize themselves with the Mass first. So when Elisia Maura says 'just go" that is the wrong approach. The right approach, for someone who doesn’t know what to expect in the Traditional Mass, would be to ease them into it by going to a site such as this.
fisheaters.com/TLMinstructions.html

 

[MrS]

Things ARE holy and sacred. Vatican II did not change that.

Yes they are holy and sacred. I don’t think the poster is implying that VATII changed things.

But there is no doubt that things did change. And the changes many object to occured after VATII, not becauseof it.

Further, the changes were the work of those who acted in defiance of VATII, or because of what they thought VATII allowed or directed them to do.

On that I could agree with bkovacs… but not to the point of leaving, or joining in a schism, or demeaning the NO … which when it IS said properly, is a thing of beauty.

.

 

[Brother_John]

Aren’t you being hypocritical?

---

You are saying what I am saying. You don’t just throw someone into the Traditional mass either.. it would be best if before they go to the TLM they first go to the site suggested by Dustin’s Dad. It would help if they familarize themselves with the Mass first. So when Elisia Maura says 'just go" that is the wrong approach. The right approach, for someone who doesn’t know what to expect in the Traditional Mass, would be to ease them into it by going to a site such as this.
fisheaters.com/TLMinstructions.html

Are we talking Practical Catholics, or non-Catholics who are sniffing around? Big difference.

And if I recall correctly, my issue was with the declaration that the poster was “WRONG”, as opposed to expression of opinion.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I have a problem with the entire Western Church period!. Not just one priest. I don’t even attend this priests parish, especially after he wrote me back and told me no TLM. Sure these priests work hard and are good people. But when it comes to the traditions of the church, the traditions of secular society are more important to them. When I started going to a local Orthodox Church, is when I began to really appreciate traditional forms of worship. And learning from the early church fathers, and desert monks. Not secular theologians!. I always hear from older people how no body goes to church any more. When I was young we did this, and dressed properly. The old people had the advantage of having been around when there was these great traditions in the church, now what do we have?. A Church that is falling apart, clergy abuse, more talk about abortion than you can shake a stick at, liturgical abuses, lose of faith, etc. All this after priests started doing their own thing. Giving up the traditions and giving into secular society. And we ask to bring back the traditions, and we get a strange look. Then you wonder why I am irrate. Maybe this is the “wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul” that Pope Pius V warned us about.

Wait… are you a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian? Why is a non-Catholic harrassing priests about their Sunday Mass schedule?

 

[surfinpure]

I guess your right!. Tradition is dead in the modern day Roman Catholic Church. It’s a thing of the past. There is no time for it. The Roman Catholic Church I had hoped for died when Vatican 2 began. The Catholic Church after Vatican 2 is not the same Catholic Church that gave us all those great traditions. Two completely different Churches, under the same title. Maybe it’s best if we now end this post and lay the topic to rest. When I die I don’t want a modern day Catholic priest giving me last rights. Because to me the Holy Roman Catholic Church of antiquity no longer exists. Let’s now end this post!!.

I’m sorry, but that cannot be the last word on the subject.

"But the Church has avoided all these pitfalls and all these errors and, as the bark of Peter, with sails flying high, cuts the waters of the sea, she looks before and aft. Behind her she can see the shriveled hulks of a thousand heresies and mental fashions that were suited to their times and died because that is all they were suited for – their times. Before her she can see the shipwrecked rafsts of masterless men looking for the master Peter, who is not for one time but all time.

“And now its future will be just as thrilling as the past. Always in danger, always escaping it; always threatened, always conquering; always enjoying the romance of avoiding extremes, the bark is destined to go on through all the storms and tempests of the world until one day it checks pace at the hidden battlements of eternity, and there as the children disembark from the ship of Peter, they will understand why it avoided the snares and pitfalls – because as Peter stood at the help of his bark, there rested on his hands the invisible, eternal hands of Christ, whom the winds and seas obey; Christ, who steers the sun and moon and stars in their courses.” --Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

 

[bkovacs]

Wait… are you a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian? Why is a non-Catholic harrassing priests about their Sunday Mass schedule?

I am a Roman Catholic, who considers himself a traditional Roman Catholic. I was baptized Roman Catholic. I attend an Orthodox Church now, because I’m interested in learning the traditions of the Byzantines, and also because the Roman Catholic parishes near me are way to alternative in their beliefs and liturgical practices. When I go into the Orthodox church I am greeted, I enter the Nave kiss the holy icon, cross myself, light a candle and begin my prayers as the choir softly begins the byzantine chant. When I walk into a local RC Church I walk into the Nave only to hear people talking, kids crying, guitar players tuning their strings, etc. You get my drift.

 

[stmaria]

=Brother John;3416817]Are we talking Practical Catholics, or non-Catholics who are sniffing around? Big difference.

It doesn’t matter who goes to the TLM. It is so different from the Novus Ordo that It would be to their advantage to learn as much as they can about what to expect at the Traditional Mass.

And if I recall correctly, my issue was with the declaration that the poster was “WRONG”, as opposed to expression of opinion.

So opinions are always right? If it is your opinion that the earth is flat can I tell you that your opinion is wrong? Or would that hurt your feelings and your self esteem.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I am a Roman Catholic, who considers himself a traditional Roman Catholic. I was baptized Roman Catholic. I attend an Orthodox Church now, because I’m interested in learning the traditions of the Byzantines, and also because the Roman Catholic parishes near me are way to alternative in their beliefs and liturgical practices. When I go into the Orthodox church I am greeted, I enter the Nave kiss the holy icon, cross myself, light a candle and begin my prayers as the choir softly begins the byzantine chant. When I walk into a local RC Church I walk into the Nave only to hear people talking, kids crying, guitar players tuning their strings, etc. You get my drift.

Question: do you receive communion at these Masses?

And: are there no Byzantine rite CATHOLIC churches in your area?

And: how do the Orthodox manage to prevent their children from crying at Mass?

Finally: you never did explain why you are annoyed that there are Masses in Spanish.

 

[bkovacs]

Question: do you receive communion at these Masses?

And: are there no Byzantine rite CATHOLIC churches in your area?

And: how do the Orthodox manage to prevent their children from crying at Mass?

Finally: you never did explain why you are annoyed that there are Masses in Spanish.

No, but I am given a piece of unconsencrated bread as a gesture of welcoming me.

There is one a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Around 25 to 30 miles away. Not 15 minutes.

They don’t but they usually take them out into the Narthex, when they start crying. As to not disturb the congregation during services.

Wouldn’t be more important to try to offer both forms of the Mass first rather than offer one form the NO in another vernacular language.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

.

Wouldn’t be more important to try to offer both forms of the Mass first rather than offer one form the NO in another vernacular language.

Not if there is a population in the parish that needs the OF in a different vernacular language.

The MP is pretty specific.

 

[bkovacs]

Not if there is a population in the parish that needs the OF in a different vernacular language.

The MP is pretty specific.

Well if they had the TLM we could both learn to understand Latin together. Spanish and English could go to the same Mass. This is how did they did it in the Middle Ages. Even when America was discovered.

 

[bkovacs]

Well got to go to work. Talk to you all tomorrow. God Bless!

img515.imageshack.us/img515/989/img8737sl9.th.jpg

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

25-30 miles is not that far to drive for a Mass. People do it all the time. When we lived up in the Highlands, we felt particularly priveleged to have ONE MASS within an hour of us.

We currently drive 40 minutes to Mass in Glasgow.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I have a problem with the entire Western Church period!. Not just one priest. I don’t even attend this priests parish, especially after he wrote me back and told me no TLM. Sure these priests work hard and are good people. But when it comes to the traditions of the church, the traditions of secular society are more important to them. When I started going to a local Orthodox Church, is when I began to really appreciate traditional forms of worship. And learning from the early church fathers, and desert monks. Not secular theologians!. I always hear from older people how no body goes to church any more. When I was young we did this, and dressed properly. The old people had the advantage of having been around when there was these great traditions in the church, now what do we have?. A Church that is falling apart, clergy abuse, more talk about abortion than you can shake a stick at, liturgical abuses, lose of faith, etc. All this after priests started doing their own thing. Giving up the traditions and giving into secular society. And we ask to bring back the traditions, and we get a strange look. Then you wonder why I am irrate. Maybe this is the “wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul” that Pope Pius V warned us about.

I agree with you that Tradition is important. In fact I strongly agree with you however the truth is with the Papacy.