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holdencaulfield
Guest
You should be happy that Pope Benedict XVI is Pope now. Don’t worry, he will change things.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
How is the Church giving into secularization?
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holdencaulfield
Guest
I believe he was a Catholic who now attends an Orthodox parish, because he doesn’t agree with many of the Vatican II changes. However I don’t understand how he could agree with pre-Vatican II and the Orthodox at the same time. Both cannot be completely correct.Wait… are you a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian? Why is a non-Catholic harrassing priests about their Sunday Mass schedule?
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JReducation
Guest
Actually, both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic mass are equally valid. However, the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic are not the same rite.
The closest that the Roman Catholic have to the Orthodox are the Byzantine rites.
The Orthodox and the Byzantine are very different from the Tridentine mass.
Just because it’s an apple doesn’t mean it’s always red.
JR
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holdencaulfield
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I hope you are not receiving the Eucharist.
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holdencaulfield
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He does have a point.
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holdencaulfield
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That’s awful, however at least you can go.
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MrS
Guest
Originally Posted by MrS forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Yes they are holy and sacred. I don’t think the poster is implying that VATII changed things.
But there is no doubt that things did change. And the changes many object to occured after VATII, not becauseof it.
Further, the changes were the work of those who acted in defiance of VATII, or because of what they thought VATII allowed or directed them to do.
On that I could agree with bkovacs… but not to the point of leaving, or joining in a schism, or demeaning the NO … which when it IS said properly, is a thing of beauty.
have you confused some posts… certainly I did not state this.
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Yes they are holy and sacred. I don’t think the poster is implying that VATII changed things.
But there is no doubt that things did change. And the changes many object to occured after VATII, not becauseof it.
Further, the changes were the work of those who acted in defiance of VATII, or because of what they thought VATII allowed or directed them to do.
On that I could agree with bkovacs… but not to the point of leaving, or joining in a schism, or demeaning the NO … which when it IS said properly, is a thing of beauty.
Holden…
have you confused some posts… certainly I did not state this.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I wonder if you are really saying that B16 did not do enough with his MP last year.
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JReducation
Guest
I just want to add one thing here from my personal experience. I spent seven years as a missionary in Latin America and three more as a university dean.
Hispanics are very protective of their heritage and their language. Though most of them really admire and love the United States, they have been abused so much, first by Spain and later by their own leaders, that they have developed a culture of suspicion.
If you take away the Spanish language mass and replace it with the TLM, the parish runs the risk of losing these people, because it can be misunderstood as discrimination. They will wonder why take away the ONE Spanish language mass and leave three English language masses.
In addition, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, their history with the Catholic Church is very different from our own. They were colonized by Catholics. If you visit any city you will find beautiful cathedrals and basilicas built along Spanish and Moorish architecture. Some are spectacular, but they are empty on Sunday.
The smaller and simpler churches draw the large crowds. There is a historical reason. These spectacular churches were built by the crown or with the support of the very wealthy. But it was the very wealthy who stole from the working classes and have oppressed them to this day.
It is only natural that people make associations, even if they are incorrect ones. Most Hispanics see the very elaborate churches and the pomp and circumstance as a sign of wealth and power. This frightens them. This is one of the attractions that the Protestant churches present to them, the simplicity.
To keep these people within the Catholic Church we must make careful and prudent pastoral decisions that take into consideration their culture and their experience. If they can feel the presence of Christ in the simplicity of the NO in their language, why rock the boat? I don’t believe this is what the Motu Propio intends.
Observe that John Paul II brought back many Latin American Catholics to the Church with his simplicity and his openness to their style of reverence and adoration. He put more than two decades of work to bring Latin America back. It was falling into the hands of the Protestants and of the Marxist Liberation Theologians.
I don’t believe that Benedict would want to undo all those years of work.
So taking away a Spanish language mass when you have three or four English language masses to choose from, would not be such a practical idea. It would create suspicion where no harm is meant; but that’s human nature.
I hope this makes sense.
JR
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Nice point, however I do think that TLM would be better for most people. However based on the Hispanic people I know, they prefer Tradition over change.I just want to add one thing here from my personal experience. I spent seven years as a missionary in Latin America and three more as a university dean.
Hispanics are very protective of their heritage and their language. Though most of them really admire and love the United States, they have been abused so much, first by Spain and later by their own leaders, that they have developed a culture of suspicion.
If you take away the Spanish language mass and replace it with the TLM, the parish runs the risk of losing these people, because it can be misunderstood as discrimination. They will wonder why take away the ONE Spanish language mass and leave three English language masses.
In addition, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, their history with the Catholic Church is very different from our own. They were colonized by Catholics. If you visit any city you will find beautiful cathedrals and basilicas built along Spanish and Moorish architecture. Some are spectacular, but they are empty on Sunday.
The smaller and simpler churches draw the large crowds. There is a historical reason. These spectacular churches were built by the crown or with the support of the very wealthy. But it was the very wealthy who stole from the working classes and have oppressed them to this day.
It is only natural that people make associations, even if they are incorrect ones. Most Hispanics see the very elaborate churches and the pomp and circumstance as a sign of wealth and power. This frightens them. This is one of the attractions that the Protestant churches present to them, the simplicity.
To keep these people within the Catholic Church we must make careful and prudent pastoral decisions that take into consideration their culture and their experience. If they can feel the presence of Christ in the simplicity of the NO in their language, why rock the boat? I don’t believe this is what the Motu Propio intends.
Observe that John Paul II brought back many Latin American Catholics to the Church with his simplicity and his openness to their style of reverence and adoration. He put more than two decades of work to bring Latin America back. It was falling into the hands of the Protestants and of the Marxist Liberation Theologians.
I don’t believe that Benedict would want to undo all those years of work.
So taking away a Spanish language mass when you have three or four English language masses to choose from, would not be such a practical idea. It would create suspicion where no harm is meant; but that’s human nature.
I hope this makes sense.
JR
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JReducation
Guest
To the over 40 generation, their language is an essential part of their tradition.
JR
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holdencaulfield
Guest
However pre-Vatican II they would have Latin.To the over 40 generation, their language is an essential part of their tradition.
JR
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JReducation
Guest
You’re right. They had the Latin, but they also had the Tridentine mass with all of its elaborate and very rich structure.
While I was living there it was interesting to hear people comment on the gold and beautiful vestments that the priest wore in the old days and the fancy altar cloths while the common people didn’t have shoes or a good set of clothes to dress their kids for school. It got so bad that the governments had to give kids uniforms to attend public school. The still do this, because the average person can’t afford to dress their kids for school.
It’s not just the language, it’s an image that has to be overcome. Many Bishops lives in beautiful palacial homes that we take for granted. Monasteries were not simple buildings, but what we in the USA might call White Elephants.
The TLM was part of an infrastructure that did a great deal of harm to the image of the Church. It was not the TLM that did the harm, but those who were in power. Unfortunately, people make incorrect associations. You know what they say, perception can be everything.
I dearly love these people. They are good and simple people. I would hate to see the Church lose them again, just as they are feeling at home again. Does this make sense?
I would suggest that you read Cardinal Sean O’Malley’s blog. He works very closely to this community, has done so for more than 30 years. You may pick up some clues as to their spirituality from there. I worked with him many years ago when he was in Washington DC., after I came back from the missions.
JR
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Yes, you do have an excellent point, however that is why we should help those that are underprivileged, not change Masses. We are not a Church of the World.You’re right. They had the Latin, but they also had the Tridentine mass with all of its elaborate and very rich structure.
While I was living there it was interesting to hear people comment on the gold and beautiful vestments that the priest wore in the old days and the fancy altar cloths while the common people didn’t have shoes or a good set of clothes to dress their kids for school. It got so bad that the governments had to give kids uniforms to attend public school. The still do this, because the average person can’t afford to dress their kids for school.
It’s not just the language, it’s an image that has to be overcome. Many Bishops lives in beautiful palacial homes that we take for granted. Monasteries were not simple buildings, but what we in the USA might call White Elephants.
The TLM was part of an infrastructure that did a great deal of harm to the image of the Church. It was not the TLM that did the harm, but those who were in power. Unfortunately, people make incorrect associations. You know what they say, perception can be everything.
I dearly love these people. They are good and simple people. I would hate to see the Church lose them again, just as they are feeling at home again. Does this make sense?
I would suggest that you read Cardinal Sean O’Malley’s blog. He works very closely to this community, has done so for more than 30 years. You may pick up some clues as to their spirituality from there. I worked with him many years ago when he was in Washington DC., after I came back from the missions.
JR
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JReducation
Guest
I certainly subscribe to being in the world and not of the world. Had we gotten it right when we first colonized the Americas, we would not be having this discussion now.
What you’re saying it right on target. I think Mother Teresa would definitely agree with you. We have to feed the hungry and give those who need a home a place to call their own, either here or in their own country. We need to do this as a faith community to remove the old image that they have of the Church and replace it with a true image of a compassionate and redemptive Church. As we do these things, we can also invite these folks to explore other forms of worship, without being authoritatian.
We must remember that for those who have come to the USA, legally or not, this is their first taste of freedom. We don’t want then to feel that the traditionalist movement in the Church is threatening to take that away. Therefore, it must be by charity, corporal works of mercy and by invitation. It’s a slow process, but not an impossible one.
As long as they have the NO available, so that it’s always a choice, the process will go more smoothly, because it diminishes the possibility of perceiving traditionalism as authoritarianism. That’s what we want to avoid.
We want to preserve tradition, correct mistakes and abuses, but avoid authoritarianism. The world has enough dictators and oppressors.
Liturgy and faith are about liberation from ever form of slavery, because all forms of slavery are forms of sin.
JR
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holdencaulfield
Guest
True, good post.I certainly subscribe to being in the world and not of the world. Had we gotten it right when we first colonized the Americas, we would not be having this discussion now.
What you’re saying it right on target. I think Mother Teresa would definitely agree with you. We have to feed the hungry and give those who need a home a place to call their own, either here or in their own country. We need to do this as a faith community to remove the old image that they have of the Church and replace it with a true image of a compassionate and redemptive Church. As we do these things, we can also invite these folks to explore other forms of worship, without being authoritatian.
We must remember that for those who have come to the USA, legally or not, this is their first taste of freedom. We don’t want then to feel that the traditionalist movement in the Church is threatening to take that away. Therefore, it must be by charity, corporal works of mercy and by invitation. It’s a slow process, but not an impossible one.
As long as they have the NO available, so that it’s always a choice, the process will go more smoothly, because it diminishes the possibility of perceiving traditionalism as authoritarianism. That’s what we want to avoid.
We want to preserve tradition, correct mistakes and abuses, but avoid authoritarianism. The world has enough dictators and oppressors.
Liturgy and faith are about liberation from ever form of slavery, because all forms of slavery are forms of sin.
JR
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