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ChristIsTheWay
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A simple question: does God love us all equally or does He love some more than others?
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
It is a dogma of the Faith that Jesus died for all men and that all men are given sufficient grace for salvation. Thus, in a very true and real way, God loves all men and desires the salvation of all, even if He finds ‘more favor’ or ‘more love’ for certain persons (e.g. God doesn’t miraculously reveal himself in visions to everyone, usually only to the most humble and prayerful).A simple question: does God love us all equally or does He love some more than others?
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ChristIsTheWay
Guest
So it is a teaching of the Church that God does love some more than others? I understand He does love us all. I’ve heard some ask this question elsewhere but I did not have an answer.It is a dogma of the Faith that Jesus died for all men and that all men are given sufficient grace for salvation. Thus, in a very true and real way, God loves all men and desires the salvation of all, even if He finds ‘more favor’ or ‘more love’ for certain persons (e.g. God doesn’t miraculously reveal himself in visions to everyone, usually only to the most humble and prayerful).
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I’m the mother of three.
As a mother, I love all of my children equally as my children. There is nothing that any child could do that would make me stop loving him or her.
That being said. . .
Picture yourself as the parent of several children.
You love them all, right? Equally, devotedly.
But. . .they are all different, right?
If one child has special needs. . .say, one child is born crippled. . .you are going to give that child equal treatment with the non crippled children, but you aren’t going to say, “Kid, your brothers and sisters walk without crutches, so will you, otherwise I’m not treating y’all equally.”
You don’t give every single child piano lessons if not all of them want to play the piano, or insist that they have to dress absolutely alike, all have the very same toys, etc. That is NOT equal treatment, because they don’t have the same likes and dislikes and hobbies and talents and while some may thrive, others will be stifled and never have their true talents develop.
Finally. . .
Same scene. You have several children. You love them all equally as a parent. You treat them according to their needs. . .which means that some get ‘more’ attention at some point, some need to have special adjustments made to compensate for things like diseases, etc.
That’s what YOU’re doing as the parent.
What about what the CHILDREN are doing. . .especially as they age and become responsible adults?
That’s the other part of the equation.
While you will always love your children, even if they hurt you, despise you, commit hideous crimes against you. . .what about the children who try to please you?
As a parent, you will always love your children, even if one is Mother Teresa and one is Adolf Hitler. But despite your giving all kinds of extra ‘help’ and patience to little Adolf, if he goes to the end of his days committing crime after crime with no remorse, you may still love him just as much, but justice would mean that you would want him to make restitution for his evil. If he spends eternity doing evil, then he has to spend eternity doing restitution. And you will still love him but in a sense you will mourn the good person he could have been.
Mother Teresa, OTOH, you knew was a ‘good girl’ and you didn’t have to give her extra help. In fact, some times she felt like you weren’t even there. But she still keep on trying her hardest. You love her equally as you do all children, but doesn’t your love have the added dimension of pride in her living up to what you asked of her? Aren’t you proud of her heroic virtue in addition to loving her just as much as any other child? So you don’t exactly have ‘more’ love but you have a deeper and more ‘fulfilling’ love with those who strive to do the right thing, and you have a less fulfilling, disappointed, sorrowful kind of love with those who kept on stubbornly doing wrong.
I wonder if God might kind of feel that way. . .it isn’t ‘favoritism’, it is a matter of both justice and mercy.
As a mother, I love all of my children equally as my children. There is nothing that any child could do that would make me stop loving him or her.
That being said. . .
Picture yourself as the parent of several children.
You love them all, right? Equally, devotedly.
But. . .they are all different, right?
If one child has special needs. . .say, one child is born crippled. . .you are going to give that child equal treatment with the non crippled children, but you aren’t going to say, “Kid, your brothers and sisters walk without crutches, so will you, otherwise I’m not treating y’all equally.”
You don’t give every single child piano lessons if not all of them want to play the piano, or insist that they have to dress absolutely alike, all have the very same toys, etc. That is NOT equal treatment, because they don’t have the same likes and dislikes and hobbies and talents and while some may thrive, others will be stifled and never have their true talents develop.
Finally. . .
Same scene. You have several children. You love them all equally as a parent. You treat them according to their needs. . .which means that some get ‘more’ attention at some point, some need to have special adjustments made to compensate for things like diseases, etc.
That’s what YOU’re doing as the parent.
What about what the CHILDREN are doing. . .especially as they age and become responsible adults?
That’s the other part of the equation.
While you will always love your children, even if they hurt you, despise you, commit hideous crimes against you. . .what about the children who try to please you?
As a parent, you will always love your children, even if one is Mother Teresa and one is Adolf Hitler. But despite your giving all kinds of extra ‘help’ and patience to little Adolf, if he goes to the end of his days committing crime after crime with no remorse, you may still love him just as much, but justice would mean that you would want him to make restitution for his evil. If he spends eternity doing evil, then he has to spend eternity doing restitution. And you will still love him but in a sense you will mourn the good person he could have been.
Mother Teresa, OTOH, you knew was a ‘good girl’ and you didn’t have to give her extra help. In fact, some times she felt like you weren’t even there. But she still keep on trying her hardest. You love her equally as you do all children, but doesn’t your love have the added dimension of pride in her living up to what you asked of her? Aren’t you proud of her heroic virtue in addition to loving her just as much as any other child? So you don’t exactly have ‘more’ love but you have a deeper and more ‘fulfilling’ love with those who strive to do the right thing, and you have a less fulfilling, disappointed, sorrowful kind of love with those who kept on stubbornly doing wrong.
I wonder if God might kind of feel that way. . .it isn’t ‘favoritism’, it is a matter of both justice and mercy.
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ChristIsTheWay
Guest
Some very interesting points. The question of divine impassibility is what reminded me of this question. If God is perfect, actualized love, and His emotional state remains eternally changeless, how then could He love one more than another? Our perceptions of His eternal, unchanging love is dependent on where we are at in life. For example, when we are receiving God’s pardon for our sins, we perceive His unchanging love as mercy and forgiveness. When we reap the consequences of our sins, we perceive His unchanging love as punishment and judgement. However, it is the same, perfect love. If God loves one more than another or is more fulfilled by another, does that not mean a change in His emotional state? One affected by His creatures?
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valentino
Guest
God loves us all equally.We are all favored in different ways.Each of us has a choice to respond to that love.Some of us are favored to have happy lives on earth while others have to wait to have happy lives in Heaven.A simple question: does God love us all equally or does He love some more than others?
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DavidFilmer
Guest
It is not within the nature of God to love “more” or “less.” God IS love - whatever he loves, he loves perfectly and completely. We HAVE love, and can feel it imperfectly and in degrees.A simple question: does God love us all equally or does He love some more than others?
So God is actually incapable of incomplete or imperfect love.
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ChristIsTheWay
Guest
This is my understanding, based on divine impassibility. It seems to be a logical consequence of the doctrine. Would it be accurate to think of things like “favor” and “blessings” and so on in the same light as God’s mercy, wrath, etc? That is, our own perception of His love based on where we are at in life, and not objective changes in His love?It is not within the nature of God to love “more” or “less.” God IS love - whatever he loves, he loves perfectly and completely. We HAVE love, and can feel it imperfectly and in degrees.
So God is actually incapable of incomplete or imperfect love.
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Trishie
Guest
The challenge for every person is to accept grace to struggle free of the particular effects of unlove that wound their lives, and to grow in faith, peace, and loving kindness. Unlikely as it seems to oneself, God has power to blossom even the humblest and poorest persons into loving beings. Yet no one will flower in God’s love with quite the same shape or colour or fragrance.
Saint Therese rightly asserted that individual souls are different, with small simple souls scattered amongst great souls contributing towards making a glorious and colourful garden.
“I wondered for a long time why God has preferences, why all souls do not receive an equal amount of graces. I was surprised when I saw Him shower extraordinary favours on saints who had offended Him. For instance Saint Paul and Saint Augustine…I was puzzled at seeing how our Lord was pleased to caress certain ones from the cradle to the grave…helping them with such favours that they were unable to soil the immaculate beauty of their baptismal robe. I wondered why poor savages died in such numbers without ever having heard the name of God pronounced. Jesus deigned to teach me this mystery.
He set before me the book of nature; I understood how all the flowers He created are beautiful, how the splendour of the rose and the whiteness of the lily do not take away the perfume of the little violet or the delightful simplicity of the daisy…
If all flowers wanted to be roses, nature would lose her springtime beauty, and the fields would no longer be decked out with little wild flowers. And, so it is with the world of souls, Jesus’ garden. He willed to create great souls comparable to lilies and roses, but He has created smaller ones and these must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God’s glances when He looks down at His feet. Perfection consists in doing His will, in being what He wills us to be.” (Story of a Soul)
Saint Therese rightly asserted that individual souls are different, with small simple souls scattered amongst great souls contributing towards making a glorious and colourful garden.
“I wondered for a long time why God has preferences, why all souls do not receive an equal amount of graces. I was surprised when I saw Him shower extraordinary favours on saints who had offended Him. For instance Saint Paul and Saint Augustine…I was puzzled at seeing how our Lord was pleased to caress certain ones from the cradle to the grave…helping them with such favours that they were unable to soil the immaculate beauty of their baptismal robe. I wondered why poor savages died in such numbers without ever having heard the name of God pronounced. Jesus deigned to teach me this mystery.
He set before me the book of nature; I understood how all the flowers He created are beautiful, how the splendour of the rose and the whiteness of the lily do not take away the perfume of the little violet or the delightful simplicity of the daisy…
If all flowers wanted to be roses, nature would lose her springtime beauty, and the fields would no longer be decked out with little wild flowers. And, so it is with the world of souls, Jesus’ garden. He willed to create great souls comparable to lilies and roses, but He has created smaller ones and these must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God’s glances when He looks down at His feet. Perfection consists in doing His will, in being what He wills us to be.” (Story of a Soul)
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Mercy and wrath (or Justice) are also aspects of the Divine Nature, as is Love. Likewise, when God exercises these attributes, he does so in a perfect manner - which would not allow for the possibility of “bias.”Would it be accurate to think of things like “favor” and “blessings” and so on in the same light as God’s mercy, wrath, etc?
“Favor” and “blessing” are things that God bestows in order to bring about some desired result. Thus, these are not applied in the same manner at all times.
It is certainly easy to believe that God loves us less than someone else when that person prospers and we suffer (although I think it’s less common for a person in good circumstances to think God loves him more than another). But that’s because we view God’s love through the lens of our own flawed emotion (and we have no other lens available to us).That is, our own perception of His love based on where we are at in life, and not objective changes in His love?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
When he starts out with a chosen people what do you think?A simple question: does God love us all equally or does He love some more than others?
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DavidFilmer
Guest
“Chosen” does not mean “favorite” or “preferred.” God chose the Jews for a specific purpose - to reveal himself to them, so that they could reveal him to the world (culminating in the Messiah, at which point the chosen mission was fulfilled).When he starts out with a chosen people what do you think?
Jonah was chosen for a similar (but smaller) purpose - and he was none too happy about it.
From a worldly standpoint, it’s not usually a good thing to be chosen by God for something. It usually means you must do something that you would rather not do. And the Jews suffered much as a result of being chosen by God.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Did God have Covenants with others than the Jews in the OT?“Chosen” does not mean “favorite” or “preferred.” God chose the Jews for a specific purpose - to reveal himself to them, so that they could reveal him to the world (culminating in the Messiah, at which point the chosen mission was fulfilled).
Jonah was chosen for a similar (but smaller) purpose - and he was none too happy about it.
From a worldly standpoint, it’s not usually a good thing to be chosen by God for something. It usually means you must do something that you would rather not do. And the Jews suffered much as a result of being chosen by God.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Yes - he had a covenant with Adam, Noah, and Abraham. The Jews are those people descended from the twelve sons of Jacob (Abraham’s grandson), so Adam, Noah, and Abraham preceded the establishment of the Jewish peoples.Did God have Covenants with others than the Jews in the OT?
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FCEGM
Guest
I think Trishie’s example from the writings of St. Therese gives the answer: each soul is a unique creation with a capacity to be more or less open to Divine Love. Thus we have, for example, the Blessed Virgin Mary who is the greatest of all creatures since her capacity for divine love was such that God became Incarnate in and through her. I’ve seen this question arise in a different form when some people insist that no one is more holy than the next if he or she is in Christ. Again, Mary is the example.A simple question: does God love us all equally or does He love some more than others?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Do the Jews consider them Jews?Yes - he had a covenant with Adam, Noah, and Abraham. The Jews are those people descended from the twelve sons of Jacob (Abraham’s grandson), so Adam, Noah, and Abraham preceded the establishment of the Jewish peoples.
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valentino
Guest
That may be true but I believe at birth we are mostly all alike.One 2yr old is as humble as the next.Of course it depends on how much a child can be influenced at that age.I suppose that some children may respond to the word of God differently than another(although I’m not really sure why this is)and therefore be more humble but its difficult to say why some are favored with a vision and another is not.The Little Flower said she didn’t know why see was favored to be brought up in a blessed home with religious parents and sisters.I don’t know that i agree that God loves some more than others.One can be favored without being loved more by God in my opinion.It is a dogma of the Faith that Jesus died for all men and that all men are given sufficient grace for salvation. Thus, in a very true and real way, God loves all men and desires the salvation of all, even if He finds ‘more favor’ or ‘more love’ for certain persons (e.g. God doesn’t miraculously reveal himself in visions to everyone, usually only to the most humble and prayerful).
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valentino
Guest
I believe God loved Hitler as much as He did Padre Pio.the only difference was that Hitler would never accept the grace that God gave him.I’m not saying that Hitler would have ever been another Padre Pio coming from such different backgrounds but that if Hitler would have responded to the grace God had given him at some point in his life that he could have made the best of his situation and would haave been loved as much as Padre Pio.
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valentino
Guest
God doesn’t give His grace equallly to all human beings.To some He gives more than others.God can pick and choose whomever He wants to favor and not to favor.Mary was obviously favored but it had nothing to do with her.She was picked because she was picked.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
By all means, keep talking.
Bear in mind, I am very fond of Mary and don’t particularly like what you just said now.
Not at all my friend.
Please correct the above to fit in with Catholic Beliefs of Mary, or debate me. Start a thread and invite me to it. I am game for that.
She was picked because she was picked?
Are you bloody serious my friend?
Bear in mind, I am very fond of Mary and don’t particularly like what you just said now.
Not at all my friend.
Please correct the above to fit in with Catholic Beliefs of Mary, or debate me. Start a thread and invite me to it. I am game for that.
She was picked because she was picked?
Are you bloody serious my friend?
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