Divine intervention prior to Adam

[Aelred_Minor]

Many years ago I read a statement somewhere that among the points all Catholics must hold regarding the history of the physical universe is that not only did God create it out of nothing but also that he brought it to its current form through a series of divine interventions or miracles. Unfortunately I have forgotten where I read this and what if any authoritative source the author quoted to support this assertion.

I know that evolution is a banned topic on this forum, but I’m not discussing that specifically. What I’m wondering about is the broader question. Is it permissible for a Catholic to entertain the notion that after the creation of the universe ex nihilo (if this is to be thought of as a temporal event at all- another interesting philosophical question that perhaps I’ll start a thread on) and before the creation of the first man the universe simply developed providentially according to its own natural “laws”, founded of course in the creative and sustaining action of God? Or must we hold that God intervened in an extraordinary and supernatural way at an unspecified number of steps in the process?

 

[paduard]

Many years ago I read a statement somewhere that among the points all Catholics must hold regarding the history of the physical universe is that not only did God create it out of nothing but also that he brought it to its current form through a series of divine interventions or miracles. Unfortunately I have forgotten where I read this and what if any authoritative source the author quoted to support this assertion.

I know that evolution is a banned topic on this forum, but I’m not discussing that specifically. What I’m wondering about is the broader question. Is it permissible for a Catholic to entertain the notion that after the creation of the universe ex nihilo (if this is to be thought of as a temporal event at all- another interesting philosophical question that perhaps I’ll start a thread on) and before the creation of the first man the universe simply developed providentially according to its own natural “laws”, founded of course in the creative and sustaining action of God? Or must we hold that God intervened in an extraordinary and supernatural way at an unspecified number of steps in the process?

I am not sure about the use of the idea of intervention in relation to Almighty God; I mean it seems to indicate He changes His mind.

 

[Ghosty]

Definitely not a dogma, nor even a very sound belief for a Catholic to hold. It implies weakness in God, as it would mean He lacked the power to make natural laws function as He willed. There would not be any need for intervention prior to Adam, but Adam would require intervention because a spiritual soul can’t arise from physical principles.

Peace and God bless!

 

[JM3]

Is it permissible for a Catholic to entertain the notion that, after the creation of the universe and before the creation of the first man, the universe simply developed providentially according to its own natural “laws”?

Has science proven that order can come from chaos and sustain itself indefinitely or become more orderly?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Has science proven that order can come from chaos and sustain itself indefinitely or become more orderly?

At this point we are getting into a discussion of evolution which is a forbidden topic.

 

[ricmat]

I am not sure about the use of the idea of intervention in relation to Almighty God; I mean it seems to indicate He changes His mind.

Perhaps it was his plan to intervene. In that case, NOT intervening would be changing his mind.

Definitely not a dogma, nor even a very sound belief for a Catholic to hold. It implies weakness in God, as it would mean He lacked the power to make natural laws function as He willed.

That sort of argument also leads to the belief that there is no God because he wouldn’t allow evil or misery in the world. If God had the power to fix things, He would have. Clearly he hasn’t so that argument is not sound.

It implies no weakness in God. God is above natural laws, he holds them in existence just as he holds the universe in existence. He causes them to change or be suspended as he wishes. Science is not above God. Science cannot explain God. God is not constrained by natural laws - THAT would make God inferior. You see intervention as inferior. God may not see it that way.

I’ve been reading a few books lately on spirituality, and they take the opposite viewpoint - that God intervenes in EVERYTHING right down to the actions of atoms and sub-atomic particles. God is involved in history in a big way. etc.

The Gift of Faith by Fr. Tadeucz Dasczer (sp?) is just one book for those who might like to hear a different viewpoint. Another one is Abandonment to Divine Providence by Jean-Pierre De Caussade (translation by John Beevers).

 

[Ghosty]

Perhaps it was his plan to intervene. In that case, NOT intervening would be changing his mind.

That sort of argument also leads to the belief that there is no God because he wouldn’t allow evil or misery in the world. If God had the power to fix things, He would have. Clearly he hasn’t so that argument is not sound.

I don’t see how this is connected at all.

It implies no weakness in God. God is above natural laws, he holds them in existence just as he holds the universe in existence. He causes them to change or be suspended as he wishes. Science is not above God. Science cannot explain God. God is not constrained by natural laws - THAT would make God inferior. You see intervention as inferior. God may not see it that way.

It is inferior to say that God needed to intervene because the natural processes He set in motion didn’t function according to His will. Miracles are for the benefit of the Faith of humans, so prior to humans there would be no need for miraculous interventions. God laid out the universe according to His plan, and the universe followed His plan without deviation; it is not that miracles are a weakness, it’s that they were not at all necessary without humans.

I’ve been reading a few books lately on spirituality, and they take the opposite viewpoint - that God intervenes in EVERYTHING right down to the actions of atoms and sub-atomic particles. God is involved in history in a big way. etc.

I’m willing to bet that they don’t say that God intervenes in all of these actions, but rather that He is active in all these things. I agree with this notion completely; all things act according to the power and will of God. An intervention is something entirely different, it is the superseding of the natural course of things (which God has laid out and empowers), and while God definitely does this at times, to imply that it is necessary for the universe to function is to diminish the actual power of God which “orders all things sweetly”.

Peace and God bless!

 

[jdobbins]

Has science proven that order can come from chaos and sustain itself indefinitely or become more orderly?

Originally Posted by Aelred Minor
Is it permissible for a Catholic to entertain the notion that, after the creation of the universe and before the creation of the first man, the universe simply developed providentially according to its own natural “laws”?

When God created the universe He also created the laws of nature, the laws of physics, that govern the motion and interactions of created things. So all things moved as God willed them to move since they moved according to His law. When God created intelligent beings, angels and man, and in particular when He created Man in His own image and likeness, God introduced a new element because His new creation was also given the gift of free will and could be to some extent self-determining with regard to actions taken. God tested the obedience of His new creation and some angels passed and some did not. God tested man, and man failed, but being the only creature made in the image and likeness of God, God made provision through His mercy for the redemption of man. St. Faustina tells us in her Diary (par 301) that the greatest attribute of God is His mercy.

 

[ricmat]

I know that evolution is a banned topic on this forum, but I’m not discussing that specifically. What I’m wondering about is the broader question. Is it permissible for a Catholic to entertain the notion that after the creation of the universe ex nihilo (if this is to be thought of as a temporal event at all- another interesting philosophical question that perhaps I’ll start a thread on) and before the creation of the first man the universe simply developed providentially according to its own natural “laws”, founded of course in the creative and sustaining action of God? Or must we hold that God intervened in an extraordinary and supernatural way at an unspecified number of steps in the process?

It is inferior to say that God needed to intervene because the natural processes He set in motion didn’t function according to His will.

1. God created, and continues to “create” at every instant of time “the laws of nature.”
2. Every action of God is by definition, supernatural and extraordinary.
3. That God continues to personally interact in every aspect of every atom in the universe, and in the lives of all people is true.
4. I believe that the OP used the word “intervention” not as Ghosty interpreted it - as a necessary “corrective action.” But rather as a more general question about the degree of God’s interaction with his creation after “let there be light.”

 

[Ghosty]

I’ll wait for the OP to clarify, but they already said “sustained”, which accounts for God’s constant interaction with creation, and the set “intervened” as opposed to this.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Aelred_Minor]

To clarify, I believe in the Thomist/Chestertonian doctrine of divine movement of all things in nature. There is nothing about an apple tree to make it inevitably produce apples rather than golden candlesticks. It is God who makes the tree and makes it produce apples. Granted we could look closer at the cells of the tree and ultimately the subatomic particles of the tree for a more detailed account of its behavior, but in the end we will run into the same principle at a finer scale.

Yet we know that the universe does generally operate in predictable ways, in patterns from which we deduce natural “laws.” Notice that I put quotation marks around the word to suggest the limited value of the concept. What I mean by divine interventions are not the ordinary operations of God in Creation that we call laws of nature but the times in which he causes something to happen which not only seemingly but actually contradicts the normal behavior of created things, or that is entirely alien to the “natural” processes of the physical world such as the initial act of creation or the creation of a rational soul. Essentially I mean miracles, but in a broader sense than is sometimes meant by the word.

I guess in a nutshell what I am asking is whether God performed miracles prior to the creation of Adam’s soul, presumably with the purpose of preparing for the creation of Man. It would be a supplementary action rather than a corrective one. One possible candidate for such an event would be the creation of the first living cell(s) from non-living matter.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Has science proven that order can come from chaos and sustain itself indefinitely or become more orderly?

Science assumes that the entropy of the universe has been increasing ever since the Big Bang. However, order can increase in one part of the universe at the expense of another. For example, an adult organism may be larger and more complex and possess more energy available for work than when it was younger, but it has gained this increased order at the expense of order elsewhere in the universe, such as its food sources. As the transfer of energy is never 100% efficient, this means the total entropy of the universe still increases.

 

[Ghosty]

Thanks for the clarification!

I stand by my previous assertion that it is not required to believe in miraculous intervention, and that it would seem to imply weakness in God. Since God was aleady active in the movement and being of the universe, and there were no seperate wills that needed “impressing” (angels having already risen or fallen), there would be no need for an omnipotent God to circumvent His own design of the universe.

If God needed to circumvent the natural laws He had Willed in order to get the natural effects He desired, then He lacked the power to make the base universe operate according to His design in the first place, and that is unfitting. This is the grave error of people who argue that the natural laws of the universe can’t account for the natural effects.

Peace and God bless!